Elemental magick
-
@Limb said
"Knowledge, Mr Eshelman. I am the kind sitting with my nose in books and not going practical. Its been long since I have seen the laws of physics being broken, and if it were to happen I'm afraid I am going to wet my pants and faint. Besides, I have heard that one should have a purpose before using it...and I wouldnt know what to use it for as everything is in perfect order
Was that the wrong answer?"
I wasted about 10 years as an armchair philosopher /occultist ...spending all this time trying to "figure things out", I embraced everything from materialism to idealism to perspectivism to various religious ideas. Philosophy itself taught me that at the core of my interest lay a deep ontological insecurity...a terrible fear of not knowing the "WHY". My intellectual endeavors turned out to be a convenient cover for that terrible angst, and I suspect MOST people undertake such endeavors for the same reason.
Magick is not about breaking the laws of physics at all, if you think that then you don't understand magick at all (not that I'm suggesting we fully understand all the "laws of physics"). You might however just develop a wonderfully fulfilling "intuitive" relationship with life. Think about the most fulfilling times in your life.....they consisted of DOING rather than "thinking about doing"...passionate sex, the excitement of extreme sports, the feeling of being in love, these all result from doing rather than thinking. You will never understand magick, (or life, which itself is synonymous with magick) unless you actually do it.
-
modernPrimitive, I share your view on this, but do not underestimate the cozyness of sitting by the fire with a good book! As a person with more than a fair share of sagittarian energy, I love to gain knowledge and it makes me content and relaxed
"Magick is not about breaking the laws of physics at all, if you think that then you don't understand magick at all (not that I'm suggesting we fully understand all the "laws of physics")"
This however, I am close to take as an insult. I did not say it was...but I say IF it does happen (because people say it does sometimes), it might give problems of keeping my pants dry. You see Mr Primitive, I am a skeptic who happened to have seen this happen before. Not by use of magick ,but by fiddling with the astral in childish ways. It was needed in order for me to change my view. Manifestation is important to blow the narrowminded sceptic's head. If you had told me many years ago how swinging your wand around while speaking fancy hebrew will help you "develop a wonderfully fulfilling intuitive relationship with life", you would have my narrowminded pity upon you for being a fruitcake:) Unless offcourse you did manifest weird things that pulled my hair and ran my errands! Today, my attitude is different. I am sure you get my points. Yes yes...I am willing to take the horrible risk of never knowing magick...most people will never know anyway,will they? However..I do play around with the idea that it would be wonderful having a teacher that would guide me when (if?) going practical. Right now, I feel more like I have to put all of my damn personal life out on a forum just to get some litterature tips...its out of proportions. After all, I didnt "order" people to put their personal input on the subject....most important was the litterature. I didnt ask for advice on whether to go practical either. So, where is your contribution to the actual subject?
One thing about this forum...its like box of chocolates. When you open a thread, you never know what you're gonna get (sticking to the topic was never very important).
-
One problem is that I don't know a single book, worthy of recommendation, on the exact subject you asked about. So, in order to give some assistance anyway, the obvious approach was to ask, "Yeah, but, exactly what is it you're looking for here?" There was a good chance that appropriate recommendations could be made.
But if really all you want is, "It needs to be a book, and needs to be on Elemental Magick," and there is no particularization of which aspect or purpose or direction or orientation of that interests you, then the answer is: I don't think there are any worth recommending.
There IS a book by that name ("Elemental Magick") by D.J. Conway, but the publisher's comments give me no confidence in it.
-
"Can anyone reccomend books and/or good online sources on the subject of elemental magick? Would love your insight on it aswell offcourse.."
read what you wrote above, you asked a question, and you (invited) insight, so naturally you are going to get alot of responses for we do take care in answering peoples questions with minute detail so not to lead them astray, accuracy is a good term!
upon that note, and regarding your latest response, obviously you didnt like what they had to say and it ruffled your feathers. mabye
"but by fiddling with the astral in childish ways"
didnt open your mind far enough... not alteast to adepts advice
-
Fair enough Mr Eshelman. I see, many things could be helpful but I wouldnt want to make such a request out on a forum. Yes, I saw that book too...thought it was so strange that I could only find one book on the subject. I read an excerpt from it online. Thanks again
Alias55A: Congratulations on falling into my "I am so much more enlightened than you/pompous windbag" trap. I understand its hard to not do it...after all it was such a cheap and obvious blow to my honesty. Dont worry about other peoples minds..if you are bending over blindly to "Adepts", its your own choice. And yes, it sometimes ruffles my feathers when people are taking wide walks off the topic.Take care to answer peoples questions with minute detail? Yeah right. Last, but not least..yes, one could always be more accurate, I will take the advice.
Now, it would be in most peoples interest to try to stick to the original topic for the sake of the poor sods coming in here and actually thinking its anything interesting under this topic.
-
"Congratulations on falling into my "I am so much more enlightened than you/pompous windbag" trap."
Didn't say i was (Enlightened):roll: , nor do i think of myself that way, and i am far from it, i just read quite a bit like yourself, yes a fire is a comfortable setting to read
, after all me (being Enlightened) was YOUR assumption."Dont worry about other peoples minds..if you are bending over blindly to "Adepts", its your own choice"
BIG difference between a sheeple and one looking for accurate info on a subject or matter at hand, and once again another assumption, there is another difference between gullible and taking advice that only applies to you and tossing the rest.
"Right now, I feel more like I have to put all of my damn personal life out on a forum just to get some litterature tips...its out of proportions. After all, I didnt "order" people to put their personal input on the subject....most important was the litterature. I didnt ask for advice on whether to go practical either. So, where is your contribution to the actual subject?
""Yeah right. Last, but not least..yes, one could always be more accurate, I will take the advice. "
if you feel that way, im sorry for you, but save next time from going off topic with by spilling your own can of worms because someone asked you to be more specific, so you might want to drop
" Would love your insight on it aswell offcourse.." at the end of a question.mabye its best you stick with your wet pants and skeptical view especially since you believe skepticism and wit will protect you from what other's say.
-
Limbo,
No insult intended, I was just offering my opinion on the matter. Whether you take offense or not is your "demon", not mine, so to speak.
Perhaps I misconstrued what you meant about breaking the laws of physics. If you mean manifesting something from the astral, well then that is well within the "laws" of the Universe albeit that the mechanism may not yet be known by the mainstream.
Personally I haven't done what would strictly be called "elemental magick", in the way that most lay people would think it, however I would certainly recommend a book which would be perfect for your skeptical disposition:
"Uncle Ramsey's Little Book of Demons: The positive advantage of personifying life's problems".
Ramsey Dukes is a seasoned occultist of the highest order and he is a trained scientist, hence he approaches the subject "rationally". This is not a book on how to cast a circle or invoke and banish elementals, it's a training manual in the underlying conceptual schemes behind that kind of work, which I think might just be the kind of book you would appreciate.
Of course you could supplement this with reading books on wearing robes and casting circles and invoking elementals into the triangle of art or you might just choose to "chaotically" engage in a sort of "Jungian dialogue" with them. The latter for me is quite effective, but then I'm quite an "intuitive" kind of person that can fall into mild trance states quite easily. You might think this is all in your imagination, which it might well be - although we might have to re-define the term imagination when we examine the results.
Good luck on your journey.
93 93/93
-
modernPrimitive:
Yes, it is well within the laws of the universe...I agree to that there is nothing to be called supernatural as it is perfectly natural (AC). However, as earlier mentioned in here somewhere...we might think we are so free of the narrowing concepts put upon us by the society's religion..or by science, but we are not. Its so wonderful to see the concepts broken, it cant be described..but still very scary. Deep down there something is screaming its not suppose to be. Years of conditioning have made its impact. It seems to "want" to be kept out of mainstream too..if you know what I mean.
Elemental magick seem to be more common among the wiccans, I might be wrong, but they are the ones speaking of and using the natural elemental entities. I was never capable of the big interest in wiccan ways. Uncles...demons..maybe,will take a look at it. I am not exactly a skeptic....more like a rehabilitated skeptic. I am not considered totally sound.
"You might think this is all in your imagination, which it might well be - although we might have to re-define the term imagination when we examine the results"
Agreed. I dont have to mention my lack of the big experience,as it is quite obvious. However, speaking of results...have you used entities to do a job? I have done that, and I also like to think that I have done "jobs" myself with what I believe to be your definition of imagination. It felt quite different. Doing the job "yourself" is harder to be sure of....as statistically it could happen without doing anything at all, a long period of testing would be necessary. The entities (including elementals, from what I have read), move things around, can be felt and sometimes seen. Because it feels so different, I am not of the opinion of all of this being in or coming from your own mind. However, it can be an illusion. The chaos magicians are creating their own servants...so I have heard about elementals..you can create your own. I get problems blending the cards here...
Thankyou..and good luck on yours
-
@Limb said
"modernPrimitive:
Yes, it is well within the laws of the universe...I agree to that there is nothing to be called supernatural as it is perfectly natural (AC). However, as earlier mentioned in here somewhere...we might think we are so free of the narrowing concepts put upon us by the society's religion..or by science, but we are not. Its so wonderful to see the concepts broken, it cant be described..but still very scary. Deep down there something is screaming its not suppose to be. Years of conditioning have made its impact. It seems to "want" to be kept out of mainstream too..if you know what I mean. "
I know exactly what you mean. After years and years of intellectually having overcome my religious upbringing, when I actually started to practice magick I would have these crazy dreams of Catholic priests scolding me! So it seems that even if we embrace an idea intellectually we still need to do the "emotional" work and tht is often the scariest part of all!
@Limb said
"Elemental magick seem to be more common among the wiccans, I might be wrong, but they are the ones speaking of and using the natural elemental entities. I was never capable of the big interest in wiccan ways. Uncles...demons..maybe,will take a look at it. I am not exactly a skeptic....more like a rehabilitated skeptic. I am not considered totally sound. "
The book is written from a rational standpoint but the goal is not to overcome one's skepticism, rather it gives practical tools, techniques, theory and "tricks of the trade" coming from someone who performed the Abramelin Operation in 1977 already. I would suggest that it would be far more insightful at least at the explanatory level than one's average wiccan elemental instruction manual. However I would get one of those kinds of books too, to see a specific "form" that this kind of magick might take. Ramey Dukes' book will open up 20 different ways you could approach this, though he doesn't necessarily suggest one specific "form", such as Ceremonial Magick, once you understand the underlying theory all "forms" of this kind of magick from the shamanic to the ceremonial to the wiccan to the "Jungian dialogue approach" will make complete "sense".
@Limb said
"Agreed. I dont have to mention my lack of the big experience,as it is quite obvious. "
Nothing to be ashamed of. We are all learning.
@Limb said
"However, speaking of results...have you used entities to do a job? I have done that, and I also like to think that I have done "jobs" myself with what I believe to be your definition of imagination. It felt quite different. Doing the job "yourself" is harder to be sure of....as statistically it could happen without doing anything at all, a long period of testing would be necessary. The entities (including elementals, from what I have read), move things around, can be felt and sometimes seen. Because it feels so different, I am not of the opinion of all of this being in or coming from your own mind. However, it can be an illusion. The chaos magicians are creating their own servants...so I have heard about elementals..you can create your own. I get problems blending the cards here..."
Yes, I've done the kind of magick you are talking about, but I used technically different methods from what could commonly be called "elemental magick" and yes things will "manifest". To be honest this is not my major concern, my work is concerned more with "self-development".
What I have noticed is say perhaps I want to stop smoking or loose weight for example (perhaps these are elements of a greater picture in say finding love for example) - instead of creating something to do this for me, I realize that I have already created such "complexes" or "neuroses" (or "personal demons" or whatever you would like to call it") which is why I smoke or am overweight in the first place. I then work to unravel that complex by magickal means and get the result I'm looking for anyway. I would suggest that it is sometime wise to hold off on creating something new and rather look at what you have already created (through the process of life itself) and why that is holding you back from what you want. Of course that's on the "personal development" side, there are of course times when we need a little help to make other kinds of things manifest.
Anyway, again, just my personal point of view on the matter.
-
Excellent, will look into it. I came over an article on the internet about a magician evocating elementals to gain knowledge on different things, to help him learn. Generous creatures apparently..I loved the idea. And the goetic demons, supposedly teachers of subjects I like. Probably a pitiful waste to limit it to theoretical consumation in a sofa in front of the fire.
No problem, I have very little shame...I like to think all that is left is honesty. A wonderful everyday-katharsis
I enjoy your personal point of view, thankyou for your posts. -
I have not done elemental magick personally but I found this article to be insightful, at least from a magickal/evocation/GD perspective.
-
@darrene2002 said
"I have not done elemental magick personally but I found this article to be insightful, at least from a magical/evocation/GD perspective.
www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/tobias010.htm"
Thanks for the link. The author's opening remarks are interesting:
"for we are a dying breed; day is near, and when we will be needed the most. So stay strong brothers and sisters, keep to thy ways, for the harvest is near."
I keep running across this 'harvest' meme...