True Thelemite
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Interesting. You attach nothing else to it?
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"Interesting. You attach nothing else to it?"
"FiliusBestia wrote:
Interesting. You attach nothing else to it?To what end?"
its just corn flakes at the end of the road, its the journey that counts.
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@FiliusBestia said
"93, Jim kinda gave me the idea for this; but just what is a TRUE Thelemite?"
LOL, this topic already has one (and probably 2 or 3) prior threads on this forum.
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Just to cause trouble...
Ideologically, I really like the interpretation of CCXX 1:40 that infers that it's not up to anyone to call themselves a Thelemite, but a matter of others labeling them as such. (I know that this isn't how things have evolved in contemporary Thelemic society, so I don't insist on it - but I do really prefer it ideologically.)
Phyllis Seckler linked whether someone deserved the title or description to attainment. She said on many occasions that she couldn't see how one could be a Thelemite without having attained the K&C of the HGA. In conversation she sometimes softened that to admit conscious knowledge of and doing of one's True Will.
One thing I really like about this approach is that it removes the problems of -isms. It isn't a social label. It isn't a club membership or a political or religious adherence. People don't need to mark or label themselves unnecessarily.
In short: You can be a sincere, even passionate, devotee to the principles of Thelema without having to label yourself an -ite! I think that's pretty cool.
In that respect, being called a "Thelemite" would kinda follow the patterns of being called a "saint." (I'm not per se asserting that a Thelemite is a saint, only saying that some conventions could be the same.) One doesn't usually call oneself a saint without drawing a certain amount of ridicule; but others may so label them if they think it deserving.
This admittedly controversial approach does, at least, bring us up against our relationship to titles and labels.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Phyllis Seckler linked whether someone deserved the title or description to attainment. She said on many occasions that she couldn't see how one could be a Thelemite without having attained the K&C of the HGA. In conversation she sometimes softened that to admit conscious knowledge of and doing of one's True Will."
That's how I started to look at it recently. Noting that the quote is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" - not that it IS, but that it SHALL BE.
I hear the quote: "Who calls us Thelemites will do no wrong" used to imply that it is right that we should all be called Thelemites. But the rest of the sentence is, "if he but look close into the word".
Interestingly, the verse ends with "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law". And I wonder if there is more here than meets my first glance. The ending implies that the only "wrong" would be to not do what one wills. And a person "will do no wrong" if "he but look close into the word".
So what if, rather than being an endorsement of a label, the verse implies that the way to follow the Law, begins with a person looking closely into the word Thelema, and understanding the meaning of the 3 grades mentioned?
The three grades listed are the Hermit, the Lover, and the man of Earth. Which it seems sensible to me to center these around the supernal triad (or at least Binah), Tiphareth, and Malkuth (or, perhaps Yesod). (I've heard others say that it corresponds to 3 life paths, and suggest a kind of "brave new world" class system, but it does not use the word "or" between the 3 grades).
In any case, all 3 grades are found "therein" - within the word "thelema". And by that measure, I find myself disagreeing with my earlier point-of-view, and taking a new stance, that a "thelemite" encompasses all of these - those seeking K&C of the HGA, those who have attained K&C, and those who have crossed the abyss - and that every "thelemite" must inevitably progress through all of these grades, or else cease to be a "thelemite". (EDIT: though I'm hesitating over the last assertion)
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"The three grades listed are the Hermit, the Lover, and the man of Earth. Which it seems sensible to me to center these around the supernal triad (or at least Binah), Tiphareth, and Malkuth (or, perhaps Yesod). (I've heard others say that it corresponds to 3 life paths, and suggest a kind of "brave new world" class system, but it does not use the word "or" between the 3 grades). "
Crowley understood them to mean one who had not attained to the K&C of the HGA; an Adept, or one who had attained to the K&C but not yet crossed the Abyss; and a Master, or one who also had crossed the Abyss. I learned the same from my teacher, and have always represented it thus.
(This is separate from O.T.O.'s specialized re-purposing of the terms.)
"In any case, all 3 grades are found "therein" - within the word "thelema". And by that measure, I find myself disagreeing with my earlier point-of-view, and taking a new stance, that a "thelemite" encompasses all of these - those seeking K&C of the HGA, those who have attained K&C, and those who have crossed the abyss - and that every "thelemite" must inevitably progress through all of these grades, or else cease to be a "thelemite". (EDIT: though I'm hesitating over the last assertion)"
The Book also defines three Ordeals. Many interpret these sequentially. I consider that they usually occur simultaneously, but one's level of awakening (or lack thereof) constrains the extent to which one can perceive what's going on.
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If we go by the tarot attributes,
Lovers = Zain = 7
Hermit = Yod = 10
World = Tav = 400That gives 417
Given than the number of the law is 418 and the key to the law is to count 0 as a number, then 417 is actual 0-417 or 418.
Maybe not the intent, but it would put the three grades at Binah, Chesed and Yesod.
Further this spells out ZYT which is the olive.
The olive is, traditionally, the gift of Minerva, the Wisdom of God, the logos."The recognition that, in the time of the Master, olives and olive oil and the olive mash that resulted from the crushing were the very essence of life comes to mind as one stands there. " (the olive press)
It seems like a possibility.
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418 isn't the number of the law is it? I thought 418 is the number of the secret key of the law: "nothing" = 61 to the jews ('ain); 8, 80, and 418 according to CCXX 1:46.
(although, I like the whole "zeyt" thing, since my Arabic nickname was always "zeytoun")
Jim, do you have more info on the ordeals? I take it you're referring to being tried by fire, intellect, and "the highest"?
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"418 isn't the number of the law is it?"
No, it isn't. He's mixed up again.
"I thought 418 is the number of the secret key of the law: "nothing" = 61 to the jews ('ain); 8, 80, and 418 according to CCXX 1:46."
418 is the value of Abrahadabra which is the Word of the Aeon, in contrast to Thelema which is the Word of the Law.
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Jim, do you have more info on the ordeals? I take it you're referring to being tried by fire, intellect, and "the highest"?"Yes. They're pretty self-explanatory. Do you have specific questions?
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If you pair up the ordeals with the grades, then trying the gross by fire seems to indicate that the man of Earth is tested by material ordeals; the Lover is tested with intellectual ordeals; and the Hermit is the lofty chosen one, tried in the "highest". What does the "highest" mean?
Why this verse, right after saying that all ordeals are abrogate?
Does this correlate at all the the 4 ordeals mentioned in III:64-67?
Is one to treat all of the bad/unfair/hardships that happen after an initiation, as the ordeal?
Are they a test of endurance (that you should just grin and bear them)?
A test of another kind (until you have the qualities or understanding, or corrected your deficiencies)?
(I know, a lot of questions... I'm not trying to be lazy, so if you'd rather refer me to a text to read, I'll put in the effort..)
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"What does the "highest" mean?"
Neshamah.
"Why this verse, right after saying that all ordeals are abrogate?"
The old ones were abrogated.
"Does this correlate at all the the 4 ordeals mentioned in III:64-67?"
No.
"Is one to treat all of the bad/unfair/hardships that happen after an initiation, as the ordeal? "
Of course they are an ordeal (see the dictionary), but not necessarily an ordeal related to the initiation.
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I can't say one should or shouldn't call themselves a Thelemite, but it is one those things I've thought on a little. Do I have the right to call myself one, even though I aspire? I don't know, but I call myself a Thelemite or Thelema because it is the path I at least aspire to walk. I seek daily to immerse myself in the Work. I am by far not even an adept, but as one who walks the path I feel that I am Thelema and one of the many, great and small, that is a part of the current. Neophyte or Master, we are Thelema. That's just my view at this point.
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Yes I know what 418 is the value of.
If you want to call in the number of the word of the aeon, or the name of the law or the number of thelema. or what the number is called that is the the name of the number, etc, whatever
I am not Alice and have no patience for white knights.
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Well, Froclown, if we play fast and loose with numbers, then numbers can say anything, and there is no consensus reality....
