Unexpected LBRP results ...
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Thank you for the recommendations Jim. I will practice them to the best of my ability. I can definitely identify with the "emotionally over-react" part. Quite reassuring to hear that this is connected to the result.
Not thrown of the horse at all. Things are just getting interesting.
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I myself have experienced unpleasant results during or after a banishing. I too have found that the ritual stirred unknown forces within my own psyche, or caused the elimination of unwelcome forces within my person. It often happens that the influence I seek to banish is within, and not exterior. In such a case, the best advice I can give is this: banish again! The ritual, properly performed, has a very distinct and peaceful influence.
Also, it could be that there is some error in your technique. Are you conducting the ritual with sincerity? Are your pentagrams cleanly and completely drawn? Such details are very important.
It's good to know that somebody else has had these problems as well.
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Trust your instinct.
However, to help you decide, I can tell you about my experience. I started the LBRP and then realised that I was not ready. I was in a very bad spot and very weak emotionally, psychical and spiritually. The experiences with LBRP and the MP aggravated my general malaise, so I immediately stopped their performance. I sought refuge in the protection of the particular Deities I am close to, the versions Divine Providence that I resonate with. Seek refuge in Nuit and Light in Hadit, and your strength in Ra-Hoor-Khuit. (Use whatever deities you are closest too.) Also, depending on the nature of your problems, I highly recommend seeing a psychologist versed in Cognitive Behavioural Therapy, which is very common, and most insurance plans cover. When you're strong enough to stand on your own two feet again, then re-commence your Rituals.
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Do what thou whilst shall be the whole of the law
Thanks for the feedback underabloodredsky and JPF. It is good to get a broad perspective on things.
The thing is that Jim was quite on target with his reply. It sent chills down my spine. What he calls “colon cleanse” is recorded in my diary entry of 090730 as “feels like vomiting spiritually”.
He then goes on in describing my social reactions quite accurately. Emotionally overreacting and making judgements that is out of context with of present time etc.I do agree with the fact that a shrink might be the most appropriate magickal weapon. Especially faster and more efficient since he/she objectively analyses your state of mind. But then again, the solutions and what you make of them is always up to one self.
This puts me in dilemma since I have taken myself far up from a bottomless pit already. Careless magickal dabbling in my past and a epidemic of deaths of people close to me (4 to be exact) sent my psyche on a wild ride. This left me in a hopeless state of mind thats close to borderline suicidal. Needless to say I couldnt work, eat, sleep or do anything. I figured out quite early that meditation might help. To get the edge of things. Not at all to achieve miracles or anything but to get some relief through out the day from the constant emotional pain.
After about a year of practice this worked out really good. I got back on my feet and started to get back to work and a somewhat regular life. During the meantime meditation brought me in back contact with magick but in a serious manner (which as you mention means dont practice at all for the moment). Now close to 2 years of studying mysticism and magick I wouldnt say I am a somersaulting-out-of-joy incarnation of Pan or anything. But then again I never was. Feels like im back where I started before all the tragedy but with a more (far from completely) balanced ego, more insight and thirst for further progression. I have definitely got to know myself pretty well during the past 3 years. I do experience a small kind of depression at the moment but it is different. I think it deals more with the conflict between my new found insights and values vs the world. Also the ego cries wolf over the things it lost when my career got set back to zero during the great tragedy 3 years ago.
That said I should probably check myself regularly from falling into delusion of grandeur. But in contrast to what I have been through already, my effects from LBRP are like experiencing firecrackers after Hiroshima.
Lengthy and perhaps too personal post. I just thought that I would share the whole picture since I didnt give any details of my background.Love is the law, love under will
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"I do agree with the fact that a shrink might be the most appropriate magical weapon. "
also find the book by isreal regardie the middle pillar, he goes deep with the psychological side to it and everything.
"The thing is that Jim was quite on target with his reply. It sent chills down my spine. What he calls “colon cleanse” is recorded in my diary entry of 090730 as “feels like vomiting spiritually”. "
wandering, do you actually get the feeling of wanting to vomit? sometimes with me in asana or while doing the middle pillar ile get hot and sweaty/twitchy/fast heart rate/ and a twisting in my gut that makes me feal like vomiting. just wanting to see if there is any relation.
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Thanks for the tip Alias55a. Ive heard many good things about this book but havent purchased it yet. It has been put on my reading list.
@Alias55A said
"wandering, do you actually get the feeling of wanting to vomit? sometimes with me in asana or while doing the middle pillar ile get hot and sweaty/twitchy/fast heart rate/ and a twisting in my gut that makes me feal like vomiting. just wanting to see if there is any relation."
No not physically vomiting. Emotionally. Vomiting was my immediate choice of word in describing the effect. A better description might be an unpleasant emotion that builds to the point where you loose control over it temporarily.
Cant really say if there is any relation. -
Just wanted to say that you're not alone Apophis. Iv'e experienced a very similar thing. Initial practices tended to bring up old emotional issues that I had suppressed. I never managed to get past about 10 days of continued practice without feeling like I was becoming a neurotic wreck and a complete asshole to the people around me. This happened several times in the past and resulted in me stopping daily LBRP practice.
However, more recently, continued practice actually managed to "break through" those issues.....I could actually feel some subconscious energy being "loosened" during a particular LBRP. This actually "broke" a depression I was in. If that wasn't strange enough, 10 minutes after that particular ritual, just as I finished my diary entry, some pretty crazy psychological issues arose with the people around me.
My guess is that people you're in a relationships with might notice the changes in you, either consciously or unconsciously, and they might struggle a bit in dealing with those changes. As Jim pointed out, be aware of over-reacting, but keep at it, meditation and LBRP. Of course I should probably also mention that I was using a technique of dealing with the emotional "mud stirring" which I believed helped me through it. It's basically a kind of self-therapy, an animistic idea where one objectifies and talks to one's "issues", as though they are "spirits" or "demons", along the lines of Jung's "active imagination" technique. Of course this is just a gentler form of proper Goetic work. If you're interested in this technique, get a copy of "Uncle Ramsey's little book of demons: The positive advantage of personifying life's problems". I can't recommend it enough. A few days of this technique did more for me than 15 years of struggling through some of my problems.
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When doing LBRPs regularly, my reaction to things "out of context" only really occurred with one person. In the shape that, things happened - I would brush it off, and then suddenly they did something that caused all the stuff that I brushed off to rise up into my consciousness and cause anger.
The things unrelated, except in how they irritated me and in a way felt like 'betrayals' by the person in question.
I read this post, and then spoke to some of my friends about this person and the situation. Maybe I was just over-reacting, "it was all my fault."They all thought I was taking it well and they all said they would have blown up and cut off any relationship with the person by this time.
Of course, this might just be an ordeal of my own. I am the kind of person who will suffer through much abuse in order to protect the feelings of another - even a total stranger.
Just adding another perspective...
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Just to add a few more comments: Some of the British (not only them) magickal fraternities recommend or require some sort of therapy along with basic magickal training. Dion Fortune, Gareth Knight, and Israel Regardie have all written about that. However, what they considered therapy varied widely from, psychoanalysis, geatalt therapy, even dianetics.
I can recommend a good book called "Feeling Good" by David Burns. You can work the exercises and get results like a lot of people. Cogitive Behavioural Therapy is designed to get to the false assumptions that many of us carry around with us (because we have been conditioned that way.) Magickal trainging, while helpful on its own is no substitute for dealing with false logic (the source of ones bad feelings).
Crowley and Fortune empasis dealing with things on the their proper plane and not confusing the planes, so don't neglect plain old self-analysis. Crowley was very familiar with the modern philosophers, and CBT is derived from those ideas.
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@Uni_Verse said
"Of course, this might just be an ordeal of my own. I am the kind of person who will suffer through much abuse in order to protect the feelings of another - even a total stranger."
Well, I would hesitate to give advice to a fellow Thelemite who has the tools to undo their own complexes but I have seen this very pattern time and time again in society. Indeed it's very close to my own personal situation - it' a kind of "yes man" or "nice guy" archetype and to me reminiscent of the Osirian Aeon, in that there's a tendency to sacrifice the self for the supposed "greater good".
Personally, I see how my childhood "programming" resulted in this kind of complex and it lead me to issues with self-expression. The anger outbursts were directed towards those people in my life who had established a kind of "master-slave" relationship with me based on that particular complex, even though they were not at fault for it's origins so to speak....I try to remove any blame from the picture, for it is I that allowed it to take root in the first place, even if I was only mere toddler.
In terms of depth psychology, several psychologists have proposed that the king archetype has two shadow aspects...those being the "weakling prince" and the "tyrant". To me, these shadow aspects contain one another, in that an outward tyrant contains a weakling prince internally and the outward weakling prince contains an "inner tyrant". They are what they are because they rely on one another as opposite poles of outward behavior vs inner feeling. The work for me has been to establish a relationship with both of these shadow aspects, empathize with them and come to understand that they are malformations of the True King, who exudes his inner confidence but does not need to be cruel to do so.
Continual banishing and alchemical work of course draws me a lot closer to being a "wholesome King" and I no longer need to have angry outbursts due to inner feelings of inferiority. People need to respect my point of view....and it's not necessarily about being "right" as it is simply that each individual's point of view must be respected. The King is often "wrong" and that's the role of the court Jester, to point that out. I no longer suffer from "angry outbursts", however I'm quite capable of expressing such if someone is trying to control or manipulate me....sometimes I still fall into those shadows from time to time in more extreme cases...and the work continues!
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Thanks guys for the input. Interesting stuff. Have to look into the various books and techniques. It is also nice to hear that I am not the alone going through this.
I am a big fan of Regardie, Fortune and Knight to a certain extent and I know that therapy is recommended before even moving beyond the first grades of some Orders (most of them I would say). That is a big part of my frustration. Because I already experienced what practice does to an unbalanced microcosm. Which means that I have to give myself the “return to GO card” until this is resolved.
It is my stubbornness that keeps me from getting therapy (and maybe pride). It probably did not get through in my lengthy post but it has become a mission to try to fix this thing as best as I can on my own. The rewards for doing so are enormous. At least up to this point. It feels like a boot camp before beginning more advanced practice. I can relate to the archetypes and behaviour patterns you mentioned to a great extent. Tracing back my life from a psychological standpoint it breaks down to these phases:
Childhood/early adulthood – avoiding confrontation with outbursts of anger in result of not having a balanced way of handling situations.
Adulthood up until 3 years ago – radical shift towards the severity side using anger and sometimes imposing fear to get my way. Not nice at all.
Present time – patience of gold ( or at least bronze) when it comes to personal matters. Avoiding unnecessary confrontation that does not seem to be important (read as not perceived to be in alignment with true Will). Rather a smile and silence in return than saying stuff that might stir up more unwanted chaos. But I still get anger throwbacks due to my ego feeling stomped. These outbursts rarely ever utter physically because they are checked and controlled internally. I detect a slight tendency to avoid confrontation but not as bad as in my youth. What I am saying with this is that the wrongful judgement I place on people is turned inside and the suffering from this is realizing that I am not really stopping something that I KNOW is out of order.
The way I see it. I might have experienced extreme shifts towards both polarities. I am back at an imbalance and the trick seems to be to get a balance which actually incorporates a blend of the two. But this is just speculation that remains to be proven in practice.
Thanks again for the pointers. I will research the possibilities presented to me and get back to work. Hopefully without lusting for results.
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lol ya ur not alone
sometimes with me it seems that i have a tendency to be an emotinal hypochondriac adopting problems that arent realy there while experiencing the extremes from both polarities and sometimes feeling lost in between, but its all good ile in time evolve the two extremes into a unity of not only a lil from both but to from something new that neither have or balance for lack of a better word, i guess metaphorically to create the trinity by both extremes coming together to make anew child, or forcing to ego to find the middle way as regardie said.
also in my own personal experience your problems that you have with people, if any, can follow you in your later relationships with other people and usually are ended up being projected into them, so either way you are forced to deal with it.
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@Apophis said
"Thanks guys for the input. Interesting stuff. Have to look into the various books and techniques. It is also nice to hear that I am not the alone going through this.
I am a big fan of Regardie, Fortune and Knight to a certain extent and I know that therapy is recommended before even moving beyond the first grades of some Orders (most of them I would say). That is a big part of my frustration. Because I already experienced what practice does to an unbalanced microcosm. Which means that I have to give myself the “return to GO card” until this is resolved.
It is my stubbornness that keeps me from getting therapy (and maybe pride)."
Do whatever you think is best: I am only giving you the benefit of my experience.
There shouldn't be such a stigma about getting therapy. I mean, if somebody has high blood pressure, most of us wouldn't say, 'I am trying to fix it on my own", (although I bet a self-motivated patient does speed up the healing process).
I know what you mean about not wanting to put off further magickal training for therapy, but the truth is, is that it (and all events in our lives) are opportunities for magickal development. I think Levi wrote that the first step on the path (Malkuth) is often times the most difficult. To me that means just getting one's life in order to study magick and really devote oneself to the path is possibly the biggest hurdle. It's really about what choices and sacrifices one is willing to make.
Anyway, if you are familiar with those authors, then you already know that the shortest route is the correct route, i.e. taking the time to build a solid foundation, and any short-cuts will only end up taking longer in the end.
One more angle on this: during my time of crisis I made a personal choice to be happy, to choose to be happy now and not let anyone or anything get in my way. Part of the maturation process has been to discover what will make me happy, and now I think that there is only one thing that will lead to that and it is the True Wisdom, Perfect Happiness, the Summum Bonum, and magick is only a means to get there.
Good luck and may the Gods Bless you!
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Very true. I think it is a good thing that you are persistent in pointing this out underabloodredsky. And I am not entirely hesitant against getting on the couch so to speak. Ill have to give this some extra thought.
" I think Levi wrote that the first step on the path (Malkuth) is often times the most difficult. To me that means just getting one's life in order to study magick and really devote oneself to the path is possibly the biggest hurdle. It's really about what choices and sacrifices one is willing to make."
Yes. It is definitely a struggle sorting out distractions. But I have made some radical decisions and the coming months will deal with seeing them through.
Many thanks for your time and advice. -
The star ruby seems to work well as a banishing ritual. Sure, its not the LRBP, but it is definitely more Horus and less Osiris. You might be firmly in the new Aeon and not even realize it. You should try it out and see how it makes you feel.
Your other issues might be not knowing your true will. That could be why you had so many magical screw ups and made yourself miserable. I'm surprised no one here suggested the obvious remedy of going straight to the libre samekh. Get in touch with your HGA. Then you will know what to do. I would caution against a therapist as they are a stigma, can make your existing issues worse, and introduce new issues you never had prior to therapy. -
@Jastiv said
"The star ruby seems to work well as a banishing ritual. Sure, its not the LRBP, but it is definitely more Horus and less Osiris."
How is the LBRP "more Osiris"? (I can't remember any Osiris elements in it.)
"I would caution against a therapist as they are a stigma, can make your existing issues worse, and introduce new issues you never had prior to therapy."
College of Thelema strongly encourages an extended period - at least 6 to 12 months - of weekly psychotherapy.
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Im probably going to play it safe and look into therapy. IF I can find a therapist whose first objective is NOT to recommend/demand I go on medication. Hard for you to know since most of you live in the US or UK but overhere medication often IS the therapy (having heard the stories from people who have made that journey through our rehabilitation system). In other words they tend to want to give you pills for having a bad dream.
But it should not be impossible to find a therapist with a healthy view on psychology. Just really hard.
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Apophis,
I can relate to your reluctance to see a therapist; as I have avoided one all my life. I can say that I've done incredibly well for myself, considering what I've been through.
At the same time, one big aspect of magick is about opening up lines of communication with your subconscious. If your internal communication is not so good, and you've used repression as a daily staple (I know I have!), then the result can include anxiety, depression, and explosive emotion simmering under the surface, waiting for an outlet.
And, at least for me, that dynamic seems to be amplified when I try to access the astral plane. Which really drove home the point that magick was not going to heal me - that I had to begin to heal myself, in order to practice magick seriously.
So, I personally caved at my resistance to therapy recently, and have been looking for a good one for a few weeks. Take your time, do some research, decide what you want to accomplish.
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therapy may be good for some, but me na, cant afford it anyways nor do i want to go through government funding.
i took a little personality disorder test online(most likely innacurate) but it said i had "shcizotypal" low form of schizophrenia, like social isolation, i might idk some points were right on, and i am a full blown aquarius(feb 4th, right in the middle) as my zodiac sign we describe social isolation as "cool and detached" or "eccentric" lol.
but ive been analyzing myself since i was 13 so ran across most possibilities and narrowed it down to "i just dont let things happen, i put up a resistence" combine with my class as a warrior/counselor with a subconsious shield i have since birth, all i need to do is find out the root of "why" fix it and go with it.as for a psychiatrist, ide probly turn the table and analyze him lol!!!, but as long as i stay stubborn and persistent i think ile be ok and probly dont need one.
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I am definitely recommending CBT over other forms of therapy (see the book recommedation I made earlier). There are several reasons I recommend it:
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a proven track record of published, measurable results using various tests such as the Burns Depression Checklist and others.
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the "patient" has the responsibility, and there is much "bibliotherepy", meaning the work is on you not on someone else, which means you take new skills with you for the rest of your life.
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It is a relatively short-term based therapy model which actually seems to work very well compared to psycho-analysis which can takes years of very expensive treatment.
Obviously avoid someone who's only treatment is medication. There is a huge business for this and often times the talk-therapy is minimised. The best long-term results will be gained from talk-therapy, although I think medications are good for certain things, just not exclusive of talk-therapy, as I said.
Lastly, Apophis, as someone who has experienced and come through some difficulties, like many others, there is a reason for everything. It is a fundamental magickal theory that there is a cause for every effect (in the manifested universe). Therefor, I believe there is a reason for our difficulties and great things in the experience of and understanding to be gained by going through these kinds of difficulties. Many mystics have catalogued their difficulties, such as St. John of the Cross' "Dark Night of the Soul" among others.
In any case, from a magickal perspective or not, many people have gone through difficult emotional times and come through it happy and so can you and anyone else who makes up their mind to.
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