Lineages lineages and more lineages
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93, I am curious why there are so many Lineages of A.'.A.'.? In a way I understand, but at the same time it's like damn. I am already a Probationer in one, but I've still been reading into them a little. I find myself grasping for words on just what it is I'm seeking.
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I think it basically just boiled down to disorganization after Crowley's death. Students of his and Karl Germer, who didn't really take control, kind of went on to do their own things with or without the blessings of the surviving Karl Germer.
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I wonder how many linages of the A.A. there actually are. Does anyone have a nice clean list of them. I think I've only heard of two linages, but I thought there were more than that.
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My meditation cleanly destroys any need for attachment to an organisation. Not that I don't value people who help me when I'm in need of information.
The Temple is in your body so you don't even need google to find the A.:A.:!
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93, I agree with you to an extent, and yet pride bears a blinding downfall, a bandwagon. I used to be one those people locked up all the time. A hardhead. In my time, I discovered three types:those who saw an organization as a weakness, those who joined it because of a weakness, and those who did what they did just because it felt right or it was who they are. I find these arise in several examples in life. I guess I'm saying be sure you do what you do for the right reasons. 939393
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@FiliusBestia said
"93, I am curious why there are so many Lineages of A.'.A.'.? In a way I understand, but at the same time it's like damn. I am already a Probationer in one, but I've still been reading into them a little. I find myself grasping for words on just what it is I'm seeking."
One might also ask why there are so many branches of "Christianity."
Once there was little or nothing. Then the Holy Roman Catholic Church arose and "spread the good word." Then Luther rebelled, and Lutheranism cropped up. Followed by Presbyterians, Baptists, Mormons, etc, ec.
You get the picture? It's all based on Jesus, but each doctrine has some fine point(s) that makes it "truer" than any other doctrine.
Now, if you want to connect with the "real" A.'.A.'., just send me $666 and I'll point you in the right direction. (Ha, ha - just kidding on that one!).The "real" A.'.A.'. is the Order of no name that has existed from the beginning of time. Any outer order flying the A.'.A.'. banner may, or may not, be linked to that supra-abyssmal organization of Magisters.
How do you tell? As Crowley said, you link up, you sign the oath(s), and if you end up in the company of charlatans, so much the worse for you.
93, S.'. -
This is so typical of magickal fraternities; nobody will tell you a damn thing (as they smile smugly). It's always the same on every forum, "know them by their fruits" and such. Well how in the hell do you do that??? You can pick one and spend years getting to know a group only to find out that they were "bad fruits"; unless you got lucky the first try.
I get so sick of nobody standing up for their beliefs and ideals, putting them out there and saying, "I think this group or the group I belong to are better or right because of a. b. & c." etc. I mean, why is every body so afraid to criticise some body's ideas? You are not judging the person by that, only the argument.
Imagine if the physical sciences operated in that manner, "Sorry, we can't assert our belief about what is correct or criticise that school of thought on (substitute any scientific theorem here, like relativity, for example) because we might hurt some body's feelings. Also we will be on record, and if we make the wrong decision we will look really stupid."So, just like there is a list or forum for universities, why doesn't everyone who is in a magickal fraternity, Thelema, G.D. or whatever, just say this has been good or bad because of this or that and then list the reasons and arguments? You have anonymity anyway. So speak up and stop being so silly.
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People should decide what is right for them. After all, what's "good" for one person may not be for another.
People hold out on you either because they believe the above, or they don't know anything.
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Sorry, but you missed my point entirely.
One can't decide what's good for themselves without data. Did you not understand my analogy to other sciences, or does that not apply here?
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FiliusBestia, a good post. My question would be how can one join any fraternity if one does yoga and the sense that you don't need to join anyone comes naturaly? Is it something the prophets say that they're talking to the ones who are searching not the ones who have found? Underabloodredsky, you could also imagine that like science the fraternities open up their secret research to criticism.
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93,
Underabloodredsky complained:
"One can't decide what's good for themselves without data. Did you not understand my analogy to other sciences, or does that not apply here?"
Well, that is a reason this Forum is here - to provide a window on one of the lineages.
93 93/93,
Edward
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There's no point in getting into a "magickal fraternity pissing contest." Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes silence speaks louder than actions. Usually, those who talk a good game suck at the game. Watch the players, not the commentators.
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See my review of BOTA here:
heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?t=5153
This is my contribution. I challenge anyone else here to do the same.
Edward Mason,
"Well, that is a reason this Forum is here - to provide a window on one of the lineages. "
OK, but if nobody speaks up, then what?
Ra-Imhotep
"There's no point in getting into a "magical fraternity pissing contest.""
Who said any thing about a pissing contest? That is a very immature way of deciding the truth. There is another way brought to a high perfection is ancient Greece and the great universities of yester-year, and that is of argument and debate, confined to the issues at hand. As I keep repeating over and over, it is no different than the Newsweek review of America's top colleges, or one school of physics debating another school etc.
"Actions speak louder than words, and sometimes silence speaks louder than actions. Usually, those who talk a good game suck at the game. Watch the players, not the commentators."
How do I do that? Where do I get the information, the data? Maybe if you told me your experiences, related to me the actions of others, then I would have some data!
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93,
Underabloodredsky said:
"OK, but if nobody speaks up, then what? "
I can't imagine a comparative guide to orders of the kind you say you are seeking. It would have to be written by people who had hopped from order to order, or lineage to lineage: the very worst, shallowest sort of people to guide you.
We don't find an order by comparison shopping. We are led to the one or the ones that are right for us, and which deliver the life lessons we need. Don't make the mistake of thinking this is a process that should be controlled solely by your conscious ego.
The one single thing I knew I was going to avoid when I began looking for initiation was anything to do with that dreadful Crowley character. But it was in the Thelemic community, and Temple of Thelema particularly, that I found the spiritual power and depth of intelligent understanding I was after. Which isn't to say you need the same thing I did, but is to say that you have to let the Universe make the decision, not just yourself.
You remarked in another, concurrent thread that you couldn't see the point in sitting with a Tarot card for a few minutes every day, month after month. But it's precisely that kind of exercise that *subverts *our conscious decision-making processes, and begin the process of transformation and opening.
Ask the Universe, as sincerely as you can, to show you where to go. Then - this is the *really * scary bit - let it.
93 93/93,
Edward
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93, My intention in this post is in no way to get a pissing contest started. @Modest,No one said you had to join anything. Some however find the desire to do so. Not to mention, it's easy to judge yourself, but to have another judge you... @Blood,There's info out there, it is just a matter of persistent searching. It would be nice to have a list and some basic info on the various orders/lineages, I agree, BUT I wouldn't go past basic info. Even then you lose some the lesson in persistent seeking. Also, your Oath goes to the Order, not individuals. Should they prove false, move on and continue your search for truth.
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To Edward Mason & FiliusBestia, I understand what you are saying and I agree with you. I just don't think it has to be an either/or scenario. We can have both, do both. We can ask the universe and not be consciously ego dominated, but we can also discuss and share our experiences. I was not looking for some one person to rate 10 fraternity's, just the ones you have experience with, and in detail, the good and bad.
A lot of people are getting stuck or slowed by a lack of real information, and I'm saying let's address that.
The problem with the current tight-lipped restriction on information of personal experience is that it ends up being like an arranged marriage. It can take years until you get to know the person you married, and just damn luck if it's not the right one for you. The other option, is get to know by direct experience if possible, but that usually isn't, at least until you have invested years into the relationship.
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UABRS, 93,
I think I do understand what you're looking for, and I stick by the last sentence of my previous post - let the Universe make your call.
One issue too often sidestepped is that joining an order is NOT a comfortable ride. I roll my eyes over people complaining they ran into 'politics' or 'personality issues' in an order, and so they quit. The bulk, if not all, of the difficulties I've run into personally were well within my own ability to control, had I chosen to be aware of this at the time. I don't mean I could have stopped other people's behavior, but my own reactions produced much of the downside.
In any real initiatory experience there are going to be a series of difficult moments, or situations, or what have you, and the really committed aspirants push on regardless, maintaining a sense of their aspiration, while containing their sense of hurt. The teachers are human, the other members are too, and an order, while being a Sanctuary, is not going to be a Sanctuary from life. It won't be an ashram. But it can be a very good school for living.
One other thing: I discovered after I joined an order that I was in an extended community, which included those from other groups. People often find their initial phase of membership opens doors they didn't even know existed beforehand. I've come to believe the system is *meant *to work like this, to deter people who won't take the plunge.
You're asking for some degree of certainty here, or definite information, and the only honest answer I can give you from my own experience, is: You have to jump in and find out for yourself.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Edward Mason said
"UABRS, 93,
I think I do understand what you're looking for, and I stick by the last sentence of my previous post - let the Universe make your call.
One issue too often sidestepped is that joining an order is NOT a comfortable ride. I roll my eyes over people complaining they ran into 'politics' or 'personality issues' in an order, and so they quit. The bulk, if not all, of the difficulties I've run into personally were well within my own ability to control, had I chosen to be aware of this at the time. I don't mean I could have stopped other people's behavior, but my own reactions produced much of the downside.
In any real initiatory experience there are going to be a series of difficult moments, or situations, or what have you, and the really committed aspirants push on regardless, maintaining a sense of their aspiration, while containing their sense of hurt. The teachers are human, the other members are too, and an order, while being a Sanctuary, is not going to be a Sanctuary from life. It won't be an ashram. But it can be a very good school for living.
One other thing: I discovered after I joined an order that I was in an extended community, which included those from other groups. People often find their initial phase of membership opens doors they didn't even know existed beforehand. I've come to believe the system is *meant *to work like this, to deter people who won't take the plunge.
You're asking for some degree of certainty here, or definite information, and the only honest answer I can give you from my own experience, is: You have to jump in and find out for yourself.
93 93/93,
Edward"
I agreed with you entirely, Edward Mason, up until that last sentence. Re-read my posts, I am only asking for detailed, critical analysis of one's own personal experience.
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UABRS, 93,
"Re-read my posts, I am only asking for detailed, critical analysis of one's own personal experience.
"Which is one thing I wouldn't provide to anyone - certainly not in a public forum. It's not about a cookie-cutter process - it's about an intensely personal experience that encompasses the entire meaning and nature of an individual's life. Nobody but me could understand that, and I have a hard time verbalizing it, even for myself.
If you want the equivalent for yourself, then make the jump - and find out. It's about life, which you have to live one way or the other, so you may as well do it in company with a bunch of other crazy people.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Alrah, 93,
"the plunge lol
It's not neccessary and it's too much of a risk."If you don't feel called to do it, then don't. What I don't get is the 'risk.' As I just remarked to Underabloodredsky, we have to live life one way or the other, so the 'risk' in initiation is illusory.
If you're afraid of egomaniacal leaders, or that the Forces of Darkness will claim you, I suggest (and doing this IS part of the curriculum in any decent order) that you take a long, calm, silent look at why the idea of those things threatens you.
Crackpot leaders can, over the long haul, be excellent teachers, because they see and exploit our weak points. I say this having spent a couple of intense years in a cult in my 20s.
And if you're asked at your initiation to swear allegiance to His Infernal Majesty, you can always clam up.93 93/93,
Edward