The role of the Qlippoth in Thelema
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Atlantis, 93,
"The evolutionary stream is a casual process out of which the Left Hand Path tries to get out. Atavism is a tool in this, so is it´s opposite. The point in the end is as I wrote above to get outside Time. But that´s just halfway through the system."
I don't accept the evolutionary stream is casual. The Universe I look at has tended towards complexity since its beginning, and from that I infer something more than a casual process. It's in no hurry (by human standards, anyway), but after thinking this through from various directions and standpoints over a few decades, I think it's headed "somewhere," and that somewhere is, I would agree, out of Time.
I might agree on non-use of the word 'evil' regarding the qlippoth - that could be a long, nit-picky discussion. My only practical concern here is that yes, in blighted North America, there are people who do say "Way cool!" and don't realize the degree of subversion of their standard self-concept that happens with qlippothic workings ... and can't get back to their start-point when it's time to review just what's happened.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Complexity, yes. Entropy and determism is no dicotomy.
I believe that also Crowley had some sort of critique of the determinism that is life without Will, and that Will is a totally different thing, outside the continuum of the physical world, not controlled by it. Anyway, this is my take on it. If someone knows the place where Crowley talks about this maybe that person could post it. Could be somewhere in Magick Without Tears.And as I said earlier. I think that the problem of the "cool" Left Hand Path is a highly specific american phenomenon. The first self-proclaimed european Left Hand Path people are of a completely different sort than LaVey and Aquino. I am thinking about people like Julius Evola and Kenneth Grant. But also people that did not use the term but which definately could be said to be related to the Left Hand Path are of a completely different sort:
Joseph Antoine Boullan, Maria de Naglowska, Eugen Grosche, Austin Osman Spare and others.Interestingly enough, the US has some interesting examples aswell, like Paschal Randolph, however mostly completely forgotten.
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@atlantis said
"Interestingly enough, the US has some interesting examples aswell, like Paschal Randolph, however mostly completely forgotten."
That is so funny! PB Randolph was almost the defining classic Right Hand Path figure of his century in America.
Which furthers my emerging theory that most of this is a competition of labels.
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"For Atavistic cards I would recommend you take a look at (I use the Tarot de Marseille)
La Lune, Le Diable.Further, the tunnel of Parfaxitas has strong atavistic powers. It is not present in La Maison Dieu, but in Crowleys Thoth Tarot, the atavistic aspects of the Tower are more present.
All cards of the deck is related to both the paths and the tunnels."
I have "Tarot of the Elves" by Mark McElroy, great artwork! anyone heard of this deck? i like it, i connect with the graphics realy well and use the book of thoth interpretation.
tunnel of parfaxitas? tunnels? explain please.
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Alias is a perfect example how a newbie gets into magick and is comfronted with too much information from a wide range of books... and where to start?..
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"Modest
Post Posted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 6:05 pm Post subject:
Alias is a perfect example how a newbie gets into magick and is comfronted with too much information from a wide range of books... and where to start?."uh ya, you can bit me
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no, and yes, high magick is much more complicated subject then witchcraft, but i would not label myself really a newb to magick, just high magick -
@Jim Eshelman said
"
That is so funny! PB Randolph was almost the defining classic Right Hand Path figure of his century in America.Which furthers my emerging theory that most of this is a competition of labels."
Interesting that you would see Randolph as RHP. But then again, I often see Crowley as LHP. Especially after reading Kenneth Grant this becomes clearer. But Liber AL in it self, and Liber 333 is very LHP.
Did you get my post at
Wed Jan 06, 2010 2:09 am?Competition of labels.. Well. I have never felt it that way.
@Alias55A said
"
tunnel of parfaxitas? tunnels? explain please."According to some Qabalists, for each path between sephiras, there is a tunnel between qliphas. Hermetic Qabalah often attributes the paths to the tarot. The tunnels are attributed in the same way.
See for instance Liber 231:
www.hermetic.com/crowley/libers/liber231.pdfSee also "Nightside of Eden" by Kenneth Grant
and "Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic" by Thomas Karlsson:
<!-- w --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.ajnabound.com">www.ajnabound.com</a><!-- w --> -
93,
Would anyone care to clarify what is meant by Left-Hand Path and Right Hand Path? I apologize if its already been done in this thread and I'm just too dense to grasp it. I don't have a frame of reference for them so as I'm perusing this thread I keep coming away with the notion that there's certainly a play of labels that's making the discussion more difficult to follow that it really needs to be. I get the idea of the Qlippoth. I get that they are "shells" and ultimately need to be worked with, preferrably when one has a attained a suitable level of personal balance. What I don't get is LHP vs RHP.
93 93/93
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The less important (but still important) half of my view: Aside from that general equilibration, any monkeying with the Q'lippoth is likely a masturbatory toying around below late 5=6 or even 6=5. When eventually tethered to the inmost center of one's being, one can (and, actually, must) hurl oneself into all corners of the unconscious. Until then, only the very rarest of people would have a psycho-spiritual bungee that could do the job."
Jim, just a quick question relating to this, if I may.
I have found that daily LBRP exacerbates "suppression". While this is positive in the sense that the day-to-day conscious mind starts to get along well without it's neuroses, the negative spin-off is that these neuroses are not dealt with and can "haunt" one psychically, so to speak, or alternatively "haunt" one during certain sleep states, where one wakes with blood shot eyes and feeling "gut wrenched". Is the idea to "push through" with LBRP practice long enough in the hopes that these get buried far enough to not be a "haunting annoyance" (until one reaches 5=6 and begins to work with them proactively) or if they manifest in this particularly disturbing way might it be indicative of having to deal with some neurosis at an earlier stage?
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@modernPrimitive said
"I have found that daily LBRP exacerbates "suppression"."
That wouldn't be the most common experience people have - not a standrd consequence of the ritual - but I accept that it's what you experience. (I haven't read far enough in your post to see why you put in in quotes, as if you don't really mean suppression?)
"While this is positive in the sense that the day-to-day conscious mind starts to get along well without it's neuroses, the negative spin-off is that these neuroses are not dealt with and can "haunt" one psychically, so to speak, or alternatively "haunt" one during certain sleep states, where one wakes with blood shot eyes and feeling "gut wrenched"."
Commenting as I read through... yeah, I would agree that there is something that needs to be addressed.
This doesn't sound like suppression. It sounds like calmness, but without resolving the underlying pathology (I say "poathology" because you labelled it "neurosis.") This is analogous to taking psychotropic medication (to calm the aberrant reactions) but without supportive therapy. I suspect that, by the time I get to the end of the thread, I'll suggest something similar: Continue with the practice that gives you calm and temporarily stabilizes the aberration, because you can addres these things much more effectively when you are calm or centered; and then address them, through good therapy or other means.
"Is the idea to "push through" with LBRP practice long enough in the hopes that these get buried far enough to not be a "haunting annoyance" (until one reaches 5=6 and begins to work with them proactively) or if they manifest in this particularly disturbing way might it be indicative of having to deal with some neurosis at an earlier stage?"
No. The idea, instead, is to use other means which are actually within your capability. If magical means do for you, then that would be one way; but psychotherapy is a much better approach usually.
Some things that might help:
A large percentage of people think that their reactive emotions are "authentic," and that they must, therefore, give full vent and expression to them to be genuine and whole. I completely agree that you have to give full expression to all genuine strong aspects of yourself in order to be whole; but these reactive emotions are a fiction; that is, they're a part of the machinery of your mortal, human psyche that are innately transient in the first place and, secondly, don't have any real connection to what is most real in you. Furthermore, they aren't authentic. They may certainly be "justified" (and oh, how we like to justify them!), but they usually are a defense against what's real.
Sometimes we have to give vent to them just to let off the steam; but that's a brief "emergency technique."
There are all sorts of tricks one can learn - a good therapist, working with you weekly for 6 to 12 months, should be able to teach you these. Some of them, for example, have to do with increasing your truth sense about what is authentic to you. Others can connect you to the physical sensations that arise in your body when these emotions start to surge. There are many other possible approaches (I'm only wild guessing because of not having worked with you).
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@Ra-Imhotep said
"Would anyone care to clarify what is meant by Left-Hand Path and Right Hand Path?"
I´ll just talk about the Left Hand Path. This is a tricky thing. Let´s just forget any sort of idea that words are reality. Words and definitions can only in the best of cases be used as a tool for advancement, often it is a tool that is not to be used. There is no set of explanations that are perfect for every person. These things are actually best explained by one person to another, by mentor to new or would be initiate. What can be said here is just a variant among many, something that hopefully could make at least some sense to as many people as possible:
I think that the history of the Left Hand Path could be explained as a reaction to what could be perceived as a tradition that lacked important tools and had a theoretical system that too much limited the possibilities of using these tools even if they knew about them.
These theoretical positions would be: the need to use operative dualism to achieve non-dualism. Antinomianism could be an example of this. Further: the position that practice is more important than theory. That theory is just a tool, and a tool that needs to be abandoned after a while.
Today, some of the important aspects of the first steps of western Left Hand Path is:
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- Kundalini to among other things destroy the ego (or whatever it is called within the tradition(s) one is working within.)
- The active investigation of inner and outer "Astral" worlds as a method and steppingstone towards higher aspects of reality (or whatever the Astral is called within the tradition(s) one is working within.)
- The marriage of Adept and Daimon and integration of the Shadow, rather than suppression, banishing or control over it (or whatever these things are called within the tradition(s) one is working within.)
- The creation of a new ego that is better suited for life on Earth, through a sort of Alchemy (or whatever it is called within the tradition(s) one is working within.)
- Actice work with beings that predate the creation of Man, and a collaboration with these beings. A pact that cannot be described before one is able to communicate and traffick with these beings.
- An extreme focus on discipline, practice and real results.
Jim:
Would you say that there are any emotions that are authentic? And if so, what is authentic? Biological?
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@atlantis said
"Jim:
Would you say that there are any emotions that are authentic? And if so, what is authentic? Biological?"No reactive emotions (which is what I specifically said before). They are all part of the animal-machine, and are defensive.
there are, of course, many, many feelings that are authentic - since that word (even when we use it as if it meant "emotion") refers to physical sensations.
To answer your specific question depends on how we define emotion. I would either answer it directly by saying (1) Only love; or by saying, (2) No, none (inasmuch as love is so distinct from all the rest of 'emotions' as to warrant being defined as something other than an emotion; I regard it as a form of inspiration.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Some things that might help:
A large percentage of people think that their reactive emotions are "authentic," and that they must, therefore, give full vent and expression to them to be genuine and whole. I completely agree that you have to give full expression to all genuine strong aspects of yourself in order to be whole; but these reactive emotions are a fiction; that is, they're a part of the machinery of your mortal, human psyche that are innately transient in the first place and, secondly, don't have any real connection to what is most real in you. Furthermore, they aren't authentic. They may certainly be "justified" (and oh, how we like to justify them!), but they usually are a defense against what's real."
Jim, thanks for your insights.
I tend to think of the so-called "lower emotions" as a "malformation" of true will or love in the sense that they exist simply because we are not experiencing or doing love and/or will properly.
To cite an example, in my own self-analysis, I've realized that depression for example generally stems from a dissatisfaction with the way life is going ie: it's there to tell you something, that you're bloody well not satisfied with the way things are! Now, at the core of this emotion, if we dig deep enough I find self-love (or self-respect) for why would we be depressed in the first place if hidden behind that depression was not the desire to be fulfilled in the first place? Conversely mania as a kind of polar opposite of depression hides the exact same principle, it's aggressive "active form" of trying to find satisfaction, fulfillment etc.
I think of this as a kind of "alchemical distillation" of the polar opposites of emotions into their pure archetype, but I'm not sure if my thinking is actually correct on the matter. I know from practical experience that by really exploring these emotions, depression for example, going into it well below the surface one can experience a "polarity flip" which indicates one has found the "source" (and then must be careful to not move too drastically into other pole either). I remember Dion fortune saying somewhere that pathworking can be achieved simply by "living life", dealing with day-to-day situations as they arise and our responses to them and I've always thought of life itself as an alchemical process.
However a good friend whom I respect also said that no sage has ever suggested that Yesodic work will actually "produce" or lead into Tipharet. Levi said "don't listen to the voices" and yes I realize they are deceptive on the surface, but I'm partly convinced (and Lightening strike down the Tree would support this) that by exploring them deeply until one experiences a polarity flip that one touches their archetypal source in Tipharet or something like that.
I suppose it is difficult for a neophyte or an ordinary man to even understand what Tipheret means and I suppose that in the meantime our emotional experiences are the only way we can relate to what it might be. I've personally found value in this kind of "self-therapy" and of course another useful technique is to recognize the polar opposite of what one is feeling ie: sadness hides potential joy and vice versa (the buddhist "attachment") etc etc....as Crowley says I think in Liber Aleph: "seek to balance every force with it opposite" (paraphrased)...and to use the opposite idea to figure out the the archetpyal source of the feelings we're having.
Personally in terms of therapy I really got very little out of it in the past. My therapist actually told me to stop all spiritual practices, which set me back 15 years, and now I have to deal with the exact same issue once again. There was always this idea that I was "broken" and that one day my therapist would miraculously find some past incident that was a source of my "panic attacks" and all would magically dissolve in that moment. Being more pragmatic these days, if I'm feeling anxiety right now then it's telling me something that I need to look at and there's no more of a magic bullet hidden in some historical event as there's a way of dealing with it right now and in the moment. However, CBT does seem to work very well for people and some people just seem to have such positive outlooks towards life. I suppose some part of me believes that my life in the last couple of years has taken me deeply into shadow work and beginning anew on a magickal path (L.U.X based work) almost feels like taking several steps backward, although the invocation of L.U.X is probably exactly what is required to deal with the shadow. Perhaps it's just the recommendations that one is not to dabble with N.O.X prematurely that makes me think this?
Apologies for going so deeply into personal issues, but I think it has theoretical application and hopefully others will find value in this discussion too. Am I making sense with what I'm saying or am I totally off track here?
@Jim Eshelman said
"There are all sorts of tricks one can learn - a good therapist, working with you weekly for 6 to 12 months, should be able to teach you these. Some of them, for example, have to do with increasing your truth sense about what is authentic to you."
I get the feeling you're warning me to be careful of taking subjective "psychic" experiences too seriously to avoid psychosis. The way I see it is that I'm not really all that psychic, I generally only "see" things when I'm in a mild trance state (often while on the border of sleep) or late at night in a very mild form when tiredness seems to slowly erode the natural barriers between the conscious and subconscious. It can be a little unsettling of course to perceive things and to hear things talking to you, sometimes with pretty nasty, self-destructive or confusing messages, but your advice is well taken. Thank you. Perhaps there is a good reason to compliment these experiences by following them with cold, critical analysis.
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@ Atlantis, Thank you very much.
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@modernPrimitive said
"I tend to think of the so-called "lower emotions" as a "malformation" of true will or love in the sense that they exist simply because we are not experiencing or doing love and/or will properly."
Yes, that's good. I'm sure that even the most deviated and disturbed behaviors are a consequence of (wholly unconscious) True Will trying to fight its way to the surface. Sometimes these reach the extreme of being exactly the opposite of the underlying truth. The outcome may not be authentic to the person, but the original impulse is.
The psychological and Qabalistic term for what the Moon does to manifest these is the same: adaptation. In brief, it creates what behavior it feels it must in order to survive. Usually fear and pain are the motives not of the true impulse itself, but of the adaptive maze our truth has to wind it's way through to get to the surface.
"To cite an example, in my own self-analysis, I've realized that depression for example generally stems from a dissatisfaction with the way life is going"
I think I can make it simpler than that: When it doesn't have a physical cause, depression is a reaction to loss. (That one-word key not only integrates to everything we know about the astrology of depression, but has served me as a direct access for 30 years.) Your summation is a particular example of loss.
Psychiatrically, depression is "a loss of energy, physical and psychological." That's a useful analysis for connecting a sometimes amorphous state to a grounded, immediately comprehensible physical fact.
"Conversely mania as a kind of polar opposite of depression hides the exact same principle, it's aggressive "active form" of trying to find satisfaction, fulfillment etc."
Yes, hypomania (which is possibly what you mean instead of mania) is usually a compensation for depression.
"I remember Dion fortune saying somewhere that pathworking can be achieved simply by "living life", dealing with day-to-day situations as they arise and our responses to them"
Yes.
"However a good friend whom I respect also said that no sage has ever suggested that Yesodic work will actually "produce" or lead into Tipharet."
Correct. You need to perform purifications at that level, and eventually to pull back the curtain... but you can't produce results on a higher plane by moving the pieces around on a lower one.
The Golden Dawn's ceremony for the Portal degree is (among all of its business and detail) a splendid example of certain basic truths. In attempting to get to Tiphereth, the ritual shows one trying to get there from intellect (and failing), then trying to get there from desire (and failing); only when one backs up and takes the path of quiet surrender of oneself to Tiphereth is one lifted up and the way made open.
"I suppose it is difficult for a neophyte or an ordinary man to even understand what Tipheret means"
Yes. In my own case, despite "having a good idea" for years, and having access to Soror Meral, and having had more successes and feeling of completiuon in my Abraminesq working in the three months leading up to the climax - it wasn't until an hour after sunrise on the last day that I had more than a faint clue.
Until that other faculty opens and stays open, and the intimate union not only touches but roots itself in place... I think you're right, nobody really has any idea!
"and I suppose that in the meantime our emotional experiences are the only way we can relate to what it might be."
While admitting that you may be right for some people at the early stages... I haven't known of any situation where reactive emotion ever gives a right notion of "what it might be."
As Soror Meral said on more than one occasion: "Emotions! That's not a one of them worth anything at all. (Except love.)" And, as I mentioned previously, I think it best not to classify love as an emotion because it has so little in common with any of the others: it most resembles inspiration.
"Personally in terms of therapy I really got very little out of it in the past. My therapist actually told me to stop all spiritual practices, which set me back 15 years"
You had the wrong therapist. (Probably a bad one, at that.)
"There was always this idea that I was "broken" and that one day my therapist would miraculously find some past incident that was a source of my "panic attacks" and all would magically dissolve in that moment."
Yup. Bad therapist. Bad, bad therapist.
"Being more pragmatic these days, if I'm feeling anxiety right now then it's telling me something that I need to look at and there's no more of a magic bullet hidden in some historical event as there's a way of dealing with it right now and in the moment."
There probably is a critical historic event. But you get to it by dealing with the event presenting itself to you right now, yes.
"Perhaps it's just the recommendations that one is not to dabble with N.O.X prematurely that makes me think this?"
"There are common misunderstandings about N.O.X. Here you seem to equate it to "shadow," that is, to aspects of subconsciousness. That's not what it is at all. N.O.X. isn't infernal, isn't subconsciousness; it's supernal, it's superconsciousness. It's the darkness of the depths of space after leaving the earth's atmosphere, not the darkness of tunnelling underground. It's the darkness that comes from a saturation of LIGHT to overwhelming that our faculties can't register it yet, not the darkness that comes from an absence of light.
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@modernPrimitive said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The less important (but still important) half of my view: Aside from that general equilibration, any monkeying with the Q'lippoth is likely a masturbatory toying around below late 5=6 or even 6=5. When eventually tethered to the inmost center of one's being, one can (and, actually, must) hurl oneself into all corners of the unconscious. Until then, only the very rarest of people would have a psycho-spiritual bungee that could do the job."Jim, just a quick question relating to this, if I may.
I have found that daily LBRP exacerbates "suppression". While this is positive in the sense that the day-to-day conscious mind starts to get along well without it's neuroses, the negative spin-off is that these neuroses are not dealt with and can "haunt" one psychically, so to speak, or alternatively "haunt" one during certain sleep states, where one wakes with blood shot eyes and feeling "gut wrenched". Is the idea to "push through" with LBRP practice long enough in the hopes that these get buried far enough to not be a "haunting annoyance" (until one reaches 5=6 and begins to work with them proactively) or if they manifest in this particularly disturbing way might it be indicative of having to deal with some neurosis at an earlier stage?"
Personally, I've found that banishings are more confrontational than anything, and force me to "come to grips," as it were. Latent problems are brought to the surface, identified, and expelled, as not being in conformity with my Will. However, I don't always practice the LBRP daily, but on an as-needed basis.
Of course, the LBRP will mean different things to different people, as everyone must approach it in their own way.
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@Alrah said
"Do you know that a young woman will often put off major confrontations until she is menstrating? Often coinciding with changing the house around? It's an interesting non magical way to 'banish'.
"Hmmm. Reflecting on all the girlfriends I've had, I'm not sure that their menstrual cycles had quite the same purifying effect as a banishing. Unless having plates thrown at one's head could be called purifying! Disturbing, yes, or even exhilirating, but not purifying. In fact, were I to graph the frequency of my banishings, I have little doubt that we would see a massive peak coincidental with my lover's monthly flow. (No disrepect, ladies, I just happen to be dating a feisty young thing with a Moon in Aries.)
Nevertheless, point taken.
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93,
Banishing is not confrontation. Banishing requires setting up a visual temple. The practitioner centers, at least symbolically but hopefully moreso, by means of the Qabalistic Cross. Then s/he establishes the dominion of Spirit over the other elements by means of the pentagrams charged with the Divine Names.
Then, there's a switch from the Names (which are Atziluthic) to the Archangels, which are in and of the world of Briah. That should be the moment when 'the magick happens' and the magician feels calmed and, for want of a better word, perhaps humbled and becomes far more effectively centred in stillness. Whatever needed to be banished or stilled or equilibrated ceases to have the same power over us at that phase. Then you close with another Qabalistic Cross to confirm the process.
But none of that is confrontation. It's something to produce a shift in the banisher's consciousness.
Banishing by flying crockery is strictly a practice of the lower Geburic school of magicians, and worse - it's expensive. While I've never menstruated (in this lifetime, anyway), I would ascribe 'banishment by raging estrogen' to the same black school.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Alrah said
"Lol - I'm moon in Aries also.
"Explains a lot.
I had a feeling about you.Not really a bad position for the Moon, provided there are some mitigating factors, like a good Venus. My beau happens to a have a Venus ascending in Libra. If it were otherwise I seriously doubt I'd be alive right now. Her Venus notwithstanding, she somehow manages every night to push me out of the bed in her sleep, quite unapologetically I might add... Great lovemaker, though. Gotta love those mitigating factors....
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@Edward Mason said
"But none of that is confrontation. It's something to produce a shift in the banisher's consciousness. "
What if there are forces, bad vibes, etc. that make banishing necessary in the first place? Wouldn't these forces need to be confronted if the banishing is to be accomplished?
never studied the Lunar Mansions in detail. I think a banishing may be in order...]