The role of the Qlippoth in Thelema
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@atlantis said
"Jim:
Would you say that there are any emotions that are authentic? And if so, what is authentic? Biological?"No reactive emotions (which is what I specifically said before). They are all part of the animal-machine, and are defensive.
there are, of course, many, many feelings that are authentic - since that word (even when we use it as if it meant "emotion") refers to physical sensations.
To answer your specific question depends on how we define emotion. I would either answer it directly by saying (1) Only love; or by saying, (2) No, none (inasmuch as love is so distinct from all the rest of 'emotions' as to warrant being defined as something other than an emotion; I regard it as a form of inspiration.)
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Some things that might help:
A large percentage of people think that their reactive emotions are "authentic," and that they must, therefore, give full vent and expression to them to be genuine and whole. I completely agree that you have to give full expression to all genuine strong aspects of yourself in order to be whole; but these reactive emotions are a fiction; that is, they're a part of the machinery of your mortal, human psyche that are innately transient in the first place and, secondly, don't have any real connection to what is most real in you. Furthermore, they aren't authentic. They may certainly be "justified" (and oh, how we like to justify them!), but they usually are a defense against what's real."
Jim, thanks for your insights.
I tend to think of the so-called "lower emotions" as a "malformation" of true will or love in the sense that they exist simply because we are not experiencing or doing love and/or will properly.
To cite an example, in my own self-analysis, I've realized that depression for example generally stems from a dissatisfaction with the way life is going ie: it's there to tell you something, that you're bloody well not satisfied with the way things are! Now, at the core of this emotion, if we dig deep enough I find self-love (or self-respect) for why would we be depressed in the first place if hidden behind that depression was not the desire to be fulfilled in the first place? Conversely mania as a kind of polar opposite of depression hides the exact same principle, it's aggressive "active form" of trying to find satisfaction, fulfillment etc.
I think of this as a kind of "alchemical distillation" of the polar opposites of emotions into their pure archetype, but I'm not sure if my thinking is actually correct on the matter. I know from practical experience that by really exploring these emotions, depression for example, going into it well below the surface one can experience a "polarity flip" which indicates one has found the "source" (and then must be careful to not move too drastically into other pole either). I remember Dion fortune saying somewhere that pathworking can be achieved simply by "living life", dealing with day-to-day situations as they arise and our responses to them and I've always thought of life itself as an alchemical process.
However a good friend whom I respect also said that no sage has ever suggested that Yesodic work will actually "produce" or lead into Tipharet. Levi said "don't listen to the voices" and yes I realize they are deceptive on the surface, but I'm partly convinced (and Lightening strike down the Tree would support this) that by exploring them deeply until one experiences a polarity flip that one touches their archetypal source in Tipharet or something like that.
I suppose it is difficult for a neophyte or an ordinary man to even understand what Tipheret means and I suppose that in the meantime our emotional experiences are the only way we can relate to what it might be. I've personally found value in this kind of "self-therapy" and of course another useful technique is to recognize the polar opposite of what one is feeling ie: sadness hides potential joy and vice versa (the buddhist "attachment") etc etc....as Crowley says I think in Liber Aleph: "seek to balance every force with it opposite" (paraphrased)...and to use the opposite idea to figure out the the archetpyal source of the feelings we're having.
Personally in terms of therapy I really got very little out of it in the past. My therapist actually told me to stop all spiritual practices, which set me back 15 years, and now I have to deal with the exact same issue once again. There was always this idea that I was "broken" and that one day my therapist would miraculously find some past incident that was a source of my "panic attacks" and all would magically dissolve in that moment. Being more pragmatic these days, if I'm feeling anxiety right now then it's telling me something that I need to look at and there's no more of a magic bullet hidden in some historical event as there's a way of dealing with it right now and in the moment. However, CBT does seem to work very well for people and some people just seem to have such positive outlooks towards life. I suppose some part of me believes that my life in the last couple of years has taken me deeply into shadow work and beginning anew on a magickal path (L.U.X based work) almost feels like taking several steps backward, although the invocation of L.U.X is probably exactly what is required to deal with the shadow. Perhaps it's just the recommendations that one is not to dabble with N.O.X prematurely that makes me think this?
Apologies for going so deeply into personal issues, but I think it has theoretical application and hopefully others will find value in this discussion too. Am I making sense with what I'm saying or am I totally off track here?
@Jim Eshelman said
"There are all sorts of tricks one can learn - a good therapist, working with you weekly for 6 to 12 months, should be able to teach you these. Some of them, for example, have to do with increasing your truth sense about what is authentic to you."
I get the feeling you're warning me to be careful of taking subjective "psychic" experiences too seriously to avoid psychosis. The way I see it is that I'm not really all that psychic, I generally only "see" things when I'm in a mild trance state (often while on the border of sleep) or late at night in a very mild form when tiredness seems to slowly erode the natural barriers between the conscious and subconscious. It can be a little unsettling of course to perceive things and to hear things talking to you, sometimes with pretty nasty, self-destructive or confusing messages, but your advice is well taken. Thank you. Perhaps there is a good reason to compliment these experiences by following them with cold, critical analysis.
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@ Atlantis, Thank you very much.
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@modernPrimitive said
"I tend to think of the so-called "lower emotions" as a "malformation" of true will or love in the sense that they exist simply because we are not experiencing or doing love and/or will properly."
Yes, that's good. I'm sure that even the most deviated and disturbed behaviors are a consequence of (wholly unconscious) True Will trying to fight its way to the surface. Sometimes these reach the extreme of being exactly the opposite of the underlying truth. The outcome may not be authentic to the person, but the original impulse is.
The psychological and Qabalistic term for what the Moon does to manifest these is the same: adaptation. In brief, it creates what behavior it feels it must in order to survive. Usually fear and pain are the motives not of the true impulse itself, but of the adaptive maze our truth has to wind it's way through to get to the surface.
"To cite an example, in my own self-analysis, I've realized that depression for example generally stems from a dissatisfaction with the way life is going"
I think I can make it simpler than that: When it doesn't have a physical cause, depression is a reaction to loss. (That one-word key not only integrates to everything we know about the astrology of depression, but has served me as a direct access for 30 years.) Your summation is a particular example of loss.
Psychiatrically, depression is "a loss of energy, physical and psychological." That's a useful analysis for connecting a sometimes amorphous state to a grounded, immediately comprehensible physical fact.
"Conversely mania as a kind of polar opposite of depression hides the exact same principle, it's aggressive "active form" of trying to find satisfaction, fulfillment etc."
Yes, hypomania (which is possibly what you mean instead of mania) is usually a compensation for depression.
"I remember Dion fortune saying somewhere that pathworking can be achieved simply by "living life", dealing with day-to-day situations as they arise and our responses to them"
Yes.
"However a good friend whom I respect also said that no sage has ever suggested that Yesodic work will actually "produce" or lead into Tipharet."
Correct. You need to perform purifications at that level, and eventually to pull back the curtain... but you can't produce results on a higher plane by moving the pieces around on a lower one.
The Golden Dawn's ceremony for the Portal degree is (among all of its business and detail) a splendid example of certain basic truths. In attempting to get to Tiphereth, the ritual shows one trying to get there from intellect (and failing), then trying to get there from desire (and failing); only when one backs up and takes the path of quiet surrender of oneself to Tiphereth is one lifted up and the way made open.
"I suppose it is difficult for a neophyte or an ordinary man to even understand what Tipheret means"
Yes. In my own case, despite "having a good idea" for years, and having access to Soror Meral, and having had more successes and feeling of completiuon in my Abraminesq working in the three months leading up to the climax - it wasn't until an hour after sunrise on the last day that I had more than a faint clue.
Until that other faculty opens and stays open, and the intimate union not only touches but roots itself in place... I think you're right, nobody really has any idea!
"and I suppose that in the meantime our emotional experiences are the only way we can relate to what it might be."
While admitting that you may be right for some people at the early stages... I haven't known of any situation where reactive emotion ever gives a right notion of "what it might be."
As Soror Meral said on more than one occasion: "Emotions! That's not a one of them worth anything at all. (Except love.)" And, as I mentioned previously, I think it best not to classify love as an emotion because it has so little in common with any of the others: it most resembles inspiration.
"Personally in terms of therapy I really got very little out of it in the past. My therapist actually told me to stop all spiritual practices, which set me back 15 years"
You had the wrong therapist. (Probably a bad one, at that.)
"There was always this idea that I was "broken" and that one day my therapist would miraculously find some past incident that was a source of my "panic attacks" and all would magically dissolve in that moment."
Yup. Bad therapist. Bad, bad therapist.
"Being more pragmatic these days, if I'm feeling anxiety right now then it's telling me something that I need to look at and there's no more of a magic bullet hidden in some historical event as there's a way of dealing with it right now and in the moment."
There probably is a critical historic event. But you get to it by dealing with the event presenting itself to you right now, yes.
"Perhaps it's just the recommendations that one is not to dabble with N.O.X prematurely that makes me think this?"
"There are common misunderstandings about N.O.X. Here you seem to equate it to "shadow," that is, to aspects of subconsciousness. That's not what it is at all. N.O.X. isn't infernal, isn't subconsciousness; it's supernal, it's superconsciousness. It's the darkness of the depths of space after leaving the earth's atmosphere, not the darkness of tunnelling underground. It's the darkness that comes from a saturation of LIGHT to overwhelming that our faculties can't register it yet, not the darkness that comes from an absence of light.
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@modernPrimitive said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"The less important (but still important) half of my view: Aside from that general equilibration, any monkeying with the Q'lippoth is likely a masturbatory toying around below late 5=6 or even 6=5. When eventually tethered to the inmost center of one's being, one can (and, actually, must) hurl oneself into all corners of the unconscious. Until then, only the very rarest of people would have a psycho-spiritual bungee that could do the job."Jim, just a quick question relating to this, if I may.
I have found that daily LBRP exacerbates "suppression". While this is positive in the sense that the day-to-day conscious mind starts to get along well without it's neuroses, the negative spin-off is that these neuroses are not dealt with and can "haunt" one psychically, so to speak, or alternatively "haunt" one during certain sleep states, where one wakes with blood shot eyes and feeling "gut wrenched". Is the idea to "push through" with LBRP practice long enough in the hopes that these get buried far enough to not be a "haunting annoyance" (until one reaches 5=6 and begins to work with them proactively) or if they manifest in this particularly disturbing way might it be indicative of having to deal with some neurosis at an earlier stage?"
Personally, I've found that banishings are more confrontational than anything, and force me to "come to grips," as it were. Latent problems are brought to the surface, identified, and expelled, as not being in conformity with my Will. However, I don't always practice the LBRP daily, but on an as-needed basis.
Of course, the LBRP will mean different things to different people, as everyone must approach it in their own way.
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@Alrah said
"Do you know that a young woman will often put off major confrontations until she is menstrating? Often coinciding with changing the house around? It's an interesting non magical way to 'banish'.
"Hmmm. Reflecting on all the girlfriends I've had, I'm not sure that their menstrual cycles had quite the same purifying effect as a banishing. Unless having plates thrown at one's head could be called purifying! Disturbing, yes, or even exhilirating, but not purifying. In fact, were I to graph the frequency of my banishings, I have little doubt that we would see a massive peak coincidental with my lover's monthly flow. (No disrepect, ladies, I just happen to be dating a feisty young thing with a Moon in Aries.)
Nevertheless, point taken.
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93,
Banishing is not confrontation. Banishing requires setting up a visual temple. The practitioner centers, at least symbolically but hopefully moreso, by means of the Qabalistic Cross. Then s/he establishes the dominion of Spirit over the other elements by means of the pentagrams charged with the Divine Names.
Then, there's a switch from the Names (which are Atziluthic) to the Archangels, which are in and of the world of Briah. That should be the moment when 'the magick happens' and the magician feels calmed and, for want of a better word, perhaps humbled and becomes far more effectively centred in stillness. Whatever needed to be banished or stilled or equilibrated ceases to have the same power over us at that phase. Then you close with another Qabalistic Cross to confirm the process.
But none of that is confrontation. It's something to produce a shift in the banisher's consciousness.
Banishing by flying crockery is strictly a practice of the lower Geburic school of magicians, and worse - it's expensive. While I've never menstruated (in this lifetime, anyway), I would ascribe 'banishment by raging estrogen' to the same black school.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Alrah said
"Lol - I'm moon in Aries also.
"Explains a lot.
I had a feeling about you.Not really a bad position for the Moon, provided there are some mitigating factors, like a good Venus. My beau happens to a have a Venus ascending in Libra. If it were otherwise I seriously doubt I'd be alive right now. Her Venus notwithstanding, she somehow manages every night to push me out of the bed in her sleep, quite unapologetically I might add... Great lovemaker, though. Gotta love those mitigating factors....
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@Edward Mason said
"But none of that is confrontation. It's something to produce a shift in the banisher's consciousness. "
What if there are forces, bad vibes, etc. that make banishing necessary in the first place? Wouldn't these forces need to be confronted if the banishing is to be accomplished?
never studied the Lunar Mansions in detail. I think a banishing may be in order...]
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@JPF said
"What if there are forces, bad vibes, etc. that make banishing necessary in the first place? Wouldn't these forces need to be confronted if the banishing is to be accomplished?"
No. It's not about doing anything to them. It's about shifting the framework of your own consciousness.
A crude, approximate analogy: It's not about interfering with germs, but about increasing your immunity.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@JPF said
"What if there are forces, bad vibes, etc. that make banishing necessary in the first place? Wouldn't these forces need to be confronted if the banishing is to be accomplished?"No. It's not about doing anything to them. It's about shifting the framework of your own consciousness.
A crude, approximate analogy: It's not about interfering with germs, but about increasing your immunity."
Ah. I see. It has to do with isolating oneself from exterior circumstances, instead of altering those circumstances themselves.
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@Alrah said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"No. It's not about doing anything to them. It's about shifting the framework of your own consciousness."Yeah - that's why women shift the furniture around.
It's a sign!
"Excuse me, but I do plenty of furniture shifting, thank you very much.
Sexist pig.
(Of course, with a Moon in Cancer, I'm probably among the select few men who understand the psychology of PMS. Or so I'm told.)
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JPF, 93,
"Ah. I see. It has to do with isolating oneself from exterior circumstances, instead of altering those circumstances themselves."
No, that's not it. My immune system doesn't work by isolating me from bacteria and viruses, but by altering my relationship to their existence.
After writing my previous post, I synchronistically came across a paragraph in Jung's Red Book (pg 79):
"....whatever I reject is nevertheless in my nature. I thought it was without, and so I believed I could destroy it. But it resides in me and has onl assumed a passing outer form and stepped toward me. I destroyed its form and believed that I was a conqueror. But I have not yet overcome myself." (Jeez, that book is heavy to move around).
The outer threat is a threat precisely because there is a corresponding charateristic in me. Or, to be strictly Jungian: because it is a projection of a part of me that lies within my Shadow. Equilibrating myself through the LBRP helps me address the issue precisely *because *I have equilibrated myself.
93 93/93
Edward
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I've really never subjected the LBRP to analysis from a psychological perspective. For me its always been obvious when it works and when it doesn't. Whether or not the profound peace that follows the LBRP has any bearing from a psychological perspective isn't (for me) the quesstion. I'm not so concerned with the "why" as I am with balancing my Will in accordance with the Universe. As I've said before, the LBRP will mean something different for every person, insofar as they immerse themselves in its beauty and subtlety.
Nevertheless, your words are insightful, and I appreciate the knowledge, as always.
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JPF 93,
"Whether or not the profound peace that follows the LBRP has any bearing from a psychological perspective isn't (for me) the quesstion. I'm not so concerned with the "why" as I am with balancing my Will in accordance iwth the Universe."
Isn't that a psychological quest? The Will is expressed through your psyche, so the more equilibrated the psyche becomes (or at least, the more it can be quelled sufficiently for unmediated insight to flow through it), the more effectively the Will can be expressed.
Much of Qabalah is a form of psychology.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Just to add some LHP perspectives;
I almost never banish. Most of my friends won´t do it either.The only times I would do it is if I have a gut feeling that I will not be able to handle a situation in an initiatory way. Only then do I do it and then I always go back to that situation to work it through.
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@atlantis said
"Just to add some LHP perspectives;
I almost never banish. Most of my friends won´t do it either.The only times I would do it is if I have a gut feeling that I will not be able to handle a situation in an initiatory way. Only then do I do it and then I always go back to that situation to work it through."
Is your method Typhonian?
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@Jim Eshelman said
"
As Soror Meral said on more than one occasion: "Emotions! That's not a one of them worth anything at all. (Except love.)" And, as I mentioned previously, I think it best not to classify love as an emotion because it has so little in common with any of the others: it most resembles inspiration."But now obviously Love in this sense has a lower "emotional" manifestation a well. The one time I actually engaged very deeply into depression and victimhood to the point of experiencing what Ramsey Dukes (Lionel Snell) calls a "polarity flip", I experienced immediiately thereafter, an epiphany where all the Sufi poetry about being in love with the world (like Rumi's work) made complete cognitive sense. It was a though I felt I should consume / be consumed by the World in an act of Love (and of course, how Thelemic!) Just prior to this I actually felt an energy shift in the chakras from the Svādhiṣṭhāna to the Viśuddha.
This is what confuses me. As you said Jim, by moving things around on a lower plane it does not mean we attain a higher plane and yet for the first time in years, energy started moving and I experienced "breakthroughs". Of course the epiphany was sadly rather short lived. This is what confuses me, on a practical level I did seem to attain something "higher", but it seems contrary to typical RHP methods and there is the danger of being "lost in illusion" if one does not achieve that polarity flip and I suppose in some extreme cases being driven to acts of madness like suicide etc. My leaning right now, is that it could potentially be a valid technique but really needs to be balanced with a lot of RHP work too. On the other hand, perhaps I just experienced some lower yesodic form of self-love (which I guess could become dangerous), although I'd have to say it was not a selfish (nor selfless) Love but rather a kind of Joy towards the experience of life.
Jim, should we then approach this with the attitude that if Yesod cannot produce entry into Tipharet, at least our work on this level is to continually practice adjustment so that Yesod might progressively become an appropriate vehicle for the true will at some future time?
@Jim Eshelman said
"
You had the wrong therapist. (Probably a bad one, at that.)"Well the one I have now who's a kind of Jungian occultists (very into his shamanism), who been running a course for about 30 years based on the old 60's EST training (which we've chatted about before) actually proposed the animistic technique of dialogging with my "neuroses" (emotions) as though they were spirits...and that has led me to this point! Of course that is why I purchased Ramsey Dukes' book "The little book of demons: the positive advantages of personifying life's problems".
@Jim Eshelman said
"
There are common misunderstandings about N.O.X. Here you seem to equate it to "shadow," that is, to aspects of subconsciousness. That's not what it is at all. N.O.X. isn't infernal, isn't subconsciousness; it's supernal, it's superconsciousness. It's the darkness of the depths of space after leaving the earth's atmosphere, not the darkness of tunnelling underground. It's the darkness that comes from a saturation of LIGHT to overwhelming that our faculties can't register it yet, not the darkness that comes from an absence of light."Thank you for the clarification. I get it, but I obviously don't understand it yet.
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"It's the darkness that comes from a saturation of LIGHT to overwhelming that our faculties can't register it yet, not the darkness that comes from an absence of light."
Jim, i dont understand quite what you mean, i only know of the whole darkness b/c of absent of light, and what not, im not grasping this "darkness that comes from a saturation of LIGHT" thing?
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Alias 55A, 93,
"im not grasping this "darkness that comes from a saturation of LIGHT" thing?"
Liber LXV, Cap I, v 12:
Then there was silence. Speech had done with us awhile.
There is a light so strenuous that it is not perceived as light.It's not an easy concept - which is why the work of N.O.X. is the task of advanced adepts. You can't 'think it through' easily. Crowley's comment on this verse is:
"The highest degree of any given kind of energy surpasses the receptive power of the observer. Thus it appears as if of some other order."Maybe JAE can say more.
93 93/93,
Edward