External entities or subconcious mind?
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@JPF said
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@Infernal Seraph said
"However I have known trustworthy people, including my younger sister who is a very normal girl who doesn't practice any kind of ritual magick, have very vivid spiritual experiences that even resulted in physical scars being manifested on her back. I have a very hard time believing this was just part of her psyche."Interesting. Does she happen to live in a repressive or otherwize unhealthy atmosphere?"
Not at all. We both grew up in the same average conservative Christian (but not fundamentalist) family. She's always been a normal teenage girl in a normal life
I think I should elaborate on exactly what happened:
Back in spring 2007 (when I was still a Christian but gradually leaning more towards the occult) one of our teenage friends at our church died in a car wreck. Both me and my sister were hit pretty hard by it since it was so sudden and he was a really nice kid. Anyways my sister, who I think was 15 at the time, was going to a week long Christian retreat for teens called CIY in the Summer. I usually went every year too, but opted out this time. I told my parents it was because I wanted to focus on my part-time job, but in reality it was because of my waning faith in Evangelical Christianity.
Anyway my sister said that 2 weeks before she went to CIY, she had a dream where our friend who died appeared to her in the form of an angel, and told here that God would reveal himself to her soon. When she went to CIY, one night she woke up in her dorm room. She said that a black substance was forming on the walls and there was a very "evil" presence. She ran out of the room screaming for help but no one could figure out what was bothering her. I can't remember all the details, but among other things, she said she looked out the window and saw a huge grim reaper like being wearing a black robe and had gray flesh and black inhuman eyes. Somewhere along the line it calmed down and she went back to sleep. She woke up again, only this time to a horrible demonic face on the wall that she thought was Satan. By this time the other people from church realized what was happening and starting laying hands on her and praying. While they were praying my sister felt something inhuman touch her shoulder. When they were done everyone could see physical claw cuts on her shoulder. She was pretty traumatized for the next week, and said she could see spirits and such. However she eventually moved on and returned to normal life.
A few months later I "converted" to Wicca and when I told my parents I thought they would be understanding, but they were very upset and thought I was being deceived by Satan. My parents and I were very close and it was one of the most emotionally devastating moments of my life. However what I found strange was that my little sister was the most understanding of my choice. Even stranger, she then told me that when she saw "Satan", it seemed that even in the horror she could see the light of God emanating from him.
Some might find it strange that I would believe such a story and then turn to Satanism. I can't fully explain it myself, but I've had this irresistable drive to attempt to commune with the infernal powers. They are the very forces of destruction and chaos in the universe, yet beneath their outward horrors I feel there is some deep illumination that can transform the soul into something more.
I've had as couple of my own experiences, while not nearly as dramatic or interesting, I can't really explain. I'll have to get to them later though, as it's late and I've done enough typing.
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Anyone who has ever seen Scooby-Doo can attest that seemingly supernatural events ALWAYS have a natural and reasonable explanation and almost always has to do with some form of trickery and deceit an one party's side and a strong desire to believe + a refusal to question on the gullible parties side.
Also we find this theme in the Wizard of OZ / ZARDOZ (con artists use giant heads to scare primitive people), Star trek (the Gods turn out to be projections or aliens with powers) StarGate (again aliens pretend to be Gods) Doctor Who (Ghosts turn out to be aliens).
And many others.
Combined with the fact than science has always debunked mystical explanations, we must conclude than There is a rational and natural explanation for ALL phenomena, no matter how seemingly supernatural these phenomena appear to our limited and faulty senses, emotions, cognition, and brains than seek not truth but stories to reassure the emotional security.
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Infernal Seraph, 93,
Interesting story.
American Christianity has long struck me as being a form of magical Gnosticism. (Harold Bloom wrote a book called *The American Religion *that explores this. He's one of the few people who 'gets' Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet).
Because of the intense emphasis American Christianity places on personal experience, and the fact that it both invokes a version of the HGA (the personal Lord and Savior) and evokes the Shadow side of the Self (Satan) so effectively, it is able to produce magical effects: healing, conversions, visions and so on.
My personal "Sub-theory of Life No. 5-B" (or thereabouts - I don't keep a notebook:-) is that deprogramming and repositioning ourselves from any spiritual experience, encounter or lifestyle is a key phase in developing mature understanding. It sometimes requires an atheistic or agnostic phase, to decrease the lingering psychological power of what has been experienced. Another way of doing this leads us to exploration of the dark side. That's our sense of selfhood trying to find a viewpoint from which to get a handle on it all; to identify with our own Hadit in the midst of the turmoil.
But I don't doubt that magical effects and symptoms occur among Christian believers, for the reasons stated. A friend of mine, who long ago deprogrammed himself from his own evangelical group, recalls being told to hang out among the new and younger converts, because the interesting stuff (meaning ' paranormal phenomena') happened through them.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Alrah 93,
God bless the Vicars of the Anglican church - what would Britain have done for fun without them?
Deprogramming can sometimes be a job that takes years. Sure, you can nail the main issues quite rapidly, but really experiencing the places in ourselves that it all came from can be a major task. The difficult/interesting thing is that the bad things that happen also show us where to find the inner power and, through that, the inner wisdom.
Jerry Falwell used to say of people who spoke in tongues that they'd "eaten too much pizza the night before." I think he was onto something.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Alrah, 93,
"Would the difficulty people have deprogramming be from learning it when they were knee high? Like other difficult psychological blocks?"
Certainly. If you grew up in a religion, then you were being jointly programmed in the family values and dynamics at the same time as you were absorbing whatever faith you were in. Maintaining a relationship with family when you've rejected the family's religion has been very difficult for many people. Some distancing is going to be necessary to allow for resolution, and that distancing might take years.
There's a thread on the BBC site right now about Orthodox Jews who leave Orthodoxy that covers some of this:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8435275.stmIt gets more complex when you join something as an adult or (dangerous, vulnerable time) as a near-adult. At some point, you may well find the New! Improved! Truths you've adopted don't deliver what you hoped, the God-inspired leader is a lecherous narcissist, and that you're in a headspace from which it's hard to move. The complexity here is that you joined the Order of the Hyperinflated Ego(TM) to gain the strength and insight to deprogram yourself from your upbringing, and now you have to absorb and analyze the OHE experience without any support structure, since you just burned the previous one. (Your family will just say they're glad you came back, and are unlikely to offer anything insightful).
So, really learning the lessons from that can be enormously valuable, but it can't be done in a brief while. Both the early programming and the later batch need to be deconstructed, while whatever values did seem virtuous in the OHE (or from before) need to be teased out and considered, not dissolved.
That's not easy to find. A friend of mine who shared my own interest in Scientology went onto an ex-members' site, and asked, "Okay, but surely there was something in Scientology that was of value? What was it that kept you there for X number of years?" Nobody, he told me, gave him a positive answer. The people were stuck in the grief and anger stages of it all, and couldn't reflect back on the communication skills they'd developed, or gaining the ability not to react to other people's rage, rudeness and so on. There wasn't anything they'd found, and certainly nothing they'd created, to offer that.
Yes, going back right to origins and an early childhood or pre-verbal memory if you can identify one might be very helpful, since it establishes a point outside the whole set of structures that you're trying to resolve. Anyone who persists in this endeavor, though, should be able to develop a mature, aware and balanced spirituality eventually.
93 93/93,
Edward
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Alrah, 93,
"Would the difficulty people have deprogramming be from learning it when they were knee high? Like other difficult psychological blocks?"
Certainly. If you grew up in a religion, then you were being jointly programmed in the family values and dynamics at the same time as you were absorbing whatever faith you were in. Maintaining a relationship with family when you've rejected the family's religion has been very difficult for many people. Some distancing is going to be necessary to allow for resolution, and that distancing might take years.
There's a thread on the BBC site right now about Orthodox Jews who leave Orthodoxy that covers some of this:
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8435275.stmIt gets more complex when you join something as an adult or (dangerous, vulnerable time) as a near-adult. At some point, you may well find the New! Improved! Truths you've adopted don't deliver what you hoped, the God-inspired leader is a lecherous narcissist, and that you're in a headspace from which it's hard to move. The complexity here is that you joined the Order of the Hyperinflated Ego(TM) to gain the strength and insight to deprogram yourself from your upbringing, and now you have to absorb and analyze the OHE experience without any support structure, since you just burned the previous one. (Your family will just say they're glad you came back, and are unlikely to offer anything insightful).
So, really learning the lessons from that can be enormously valuable, but it can't be done in a brief while. Both the early programming and the later batch need to be deconstructed, while whatever values did seem virtuous in the OHE (or from before) need to be teased out and considered, not dissolved.
That sort of help is not easy to find. A friend of mine who shared my own interest in Scientology went onto an ex-members' site, and asked, "Okay, but surely there was something in Scientology that was of value? What was it that kept you there for X number of years?" Nobody, he told me, gave him a positive answer. The people were stuck in the grief and anger stages of it all, and couldn't reflect back on the communication skills they'd developed, or gaining the ability not to react to other people's rage, rudeness and so on. There wasn't anything they'd found, and certainly nothing they'd created, that gave them that.
Yes, going back right to origins and an early childhood or pre-verbal memory if you can identify one might be very helpful, since it establishes a point outside the whole set of structures that you're trying to resolve. Anyone who persists in this endeavor, though, should be able to develop a mature, aware and balanced spirituality eventually.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@Alrah said
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I suppose if you were indoctrinated into a religion that not only had a lot of emotional bagage and dependancy/identity issues but cued into some very basic and primal archetypal imagery, then it would take a lot longer to shift, and you've have to go through each one of images in the purge.
No wonder people become atheists for a time!
Do you think that people that come from a deeply indoctrinated background and just swap one type of interpretation for another when it comes to the archetypes, ever really feel as satisfied as a person whos started off from a blank page I wonder?
On the other hand - we all start out that way, don't we?
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A pertinent quote from the Man himself (Liber 536):
(I'll have to paraphrase, I don't have the book in front of me.)
"A child raised by ignorant and bigoted parents, if he is able to free himself from their control, finds himself admirably suited for the struggle of life."
Some of the best minds I've known were raised by sadistic Christians. In a survival-of-the-fittest world, the child who has to struggle and strive to achieve mental independence often enters life better equipped than the child raised in relative comfort. I myself, raised by brutal Fundamentalists, had a good deal of deprogramming to do, which I accomplished largely through meditation and large, frequent doses of LSD. While I wouldn't recommend this regimen to everybody, it worked for me. The slate being clean, I turned to Bhakti Yoga, and eventually Thelema. I am now a happy, well-adjusted, (relatively) sober Thelemite.
Most of us have had to start in the Old-Aeon format--but, in a world where we have to fight to survive (if not physically, at least intellectually), this is often our greatest boon.
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JPF I grew out of the same type of environment and used the same methods. I had eaten LSD often and always enjoyed it, but once I started to truly realize the potential for change, it was absolutely indescribable. I would eat at least 5 hits twice a week and during the trip would spend approx 4 hours meditating. Without that tool I know I would probably be nowhere near the state of mind I am in normally now. I eat LSD about 4 times a year now, mostly during celebration or when I am feeling in a funk and need to get a better perspective on the situation. I wouldn't recommend doing that to people who don't have extensive experience with psychadelics owing to the fact that whatever is bothering you will smack you in the face. I find that when I have some kind of issue I'm trying to work out, tripping makes me innitially get very uncomfortable, but during the process I transform and come out of it much more positive. It's kind of like going through hell to get to heaven.
I definitely have in the past and still do get lots of criticism from my family for not wanting to stay dogmatically catholic. It can definitely be difficult to endure the conversations which inevitably lead to, "you need to go to church", but it truly doesn't bother me. In all honesty I feel sorry for people trapped in that state of existence, but I know it's all just programming. Most of our believes about everything were formed when we were children and everything continues to build upon them unless they are examined later. At such a young age our mind is not able to reason and we have to find a way to cope and exist in our environment. All of our fears and the reasons for our cyclic existences stem from believes we developed before we realized we were able to develop believes. Because of this, we should all show ourselves the same love and understanding we were afford a 5 year old. I remember years ago when I started reprogramming myself and truly understanding myself, I would see events I didn't remember from my childhood. From there I would see how that affected me in another situation a year or so later. This chain would continue and I could easily view the entire chain which would lead to different believes and actions that I had at the present. Just seeing the chain made it able to be broken. LSD and many hours of meditation and self examination seem to be an incredible way to de/reprogram. If you don't have alot of experience with it though, remember fear is failure and to love yourself. For me at least, alot of my memories were painful, yet didn't bother me because I was able to detach and view the events as an outsider. I could see others driving themselves into some real depressed states though. We don't supress memories because we enjoyed them lol
For all the psychadelic warriors or future psychadelic warriors, good luck and remember, YOU ARE IN CONTROL. If anythings get too intense take a deep breathe and think of something that makes you happy. Also, if you are brave enough let your mind run wherever it goes. Sometimes the darkest states of our mind can be the most illuminating.
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Your words are encouraging. I had a lot of trouble with my crazy, Jesus-ridden kinsfolk as well. I remember arguing with my mother about the virtues of LSD. "It operates on the brain in much the same way as fasting, by depleting certain chemicals in the brain. Remember Jesus fasting in the desert?" In the end my family kicked me out of the house because of my lifestyle, and I went on a long homeless pilgrimage--but that's another story.
Now that I'm a little older, (and wiser, I hope), I've more or less graduated from the psychedelic scene. There comes a time when the deprogramming stage is over, and one must move on to other things. Still, LSD remains a useful tool for some, and a gateway to insanity for others.
The best recommendation I can give to the curious is this: "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law."
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@Alrah said
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I believe this. I was born with aspergers syndrome, which is a type of autism. It's not an illness, but my brain is wired up a little differently and this conveys both advantages and disadvantages. Until the last few years, it went unrecognised until my eldest daughter was diagnosed and the family suddenly looked at me and a collective 'aha!' went up.I don't want to go into an overly detailed account of all the difficulties this had thrown up, although I'm willing to answer questions about aspergers, but only to say that there was quite a lot of deprogramming to do. I'd asborbed a lot of negative and harmful attitudes over the years and at one point had gotten rather stuck in dependancy victim/abuser cycles that took a lot of work to root out, amongst many other matters that come with being hypersensitive to stimuli, retraining eye and body language, and working to adjust the outsider personality type to more healthy parameters. But today, I'm happy, my life runs smoothly, I do what I am fitted to do, and know what I am not fitted for and am content that it is so. I consider that being born an aspie has been a boon to the work, a spur to the horse, and I would not have wished to have a different life."
I have the same thing dude. I had ADD as a kid and they put me on meds until they thought it went away. I still had the same symptoms though and when I was 18 I was diagnosed with AS by a professional psychiatrist.
There's been times in my life I've really despised myself for having it, especially for the social difficulties it brings. But I've learned to just accept it as part of who I am.
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@Alrah said
"Yes, when we are born with some type of disadvantage or in a disadvantagous situation then if we can work to slowly transform it little by little then eventually it becomes a great strength. When we can appreciate the past from that perspective and love ourselves, then grief and anger at past trials and ordeals fade and we understand that to be the well rounded and happy people we are today it was neccessary to undergo them. Perhaps we even chose the circumstances of our birth, in full knowledge and accord of our natural inner strength in order to ensure that we would develop the vehicle according to our true will.
I believe this. I was born with aspergers syndrome, which is a type of autism. It's not an illness, but my brain is wired up a little differently and this conveys both advantages and disadvantages. Until the last few years, it went unrecognised until my eldest daughter was diagnosed and the family suddenly looked at me and a collective 'aha!' went up.
I don't want to go into an overly detailed account of all the difficulties this had thrown up, although I'm willing to answer questions about aspergers, but only to say that there was quite a lot of deprogramming to do. I'd asborbed a lot of negative and harmful attitudes over the years and at one point had gotten rather stuck in dependancy victim/abuser cycles that took a lot of work to root out, amongst many other matters that come with being hypersensitive to stimuli, retraining eye and body language, and working to adjust the outsider personality type to more healthy parameters. But today, I'm happy, my life runs smoothly, I do what I am fitted to do, and know what I am not fitted for and am content that it is so. I consider that being born an aspie has been a boon to the work, a spur to the horse, and I would not have wished to have a different life.
Besides... an overlong stay in Tesco's can be like free drugs for me as long as I am content to let the overload be and go with it.
"@Infernal Seraph said
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I have the same thing dude. I had ADD as a kid and they put me on meds until they thought it went away. I still had the same symptoms though and when I was 18 I was diagnosed with AS by a professional psychiatrist.
There's been times in my life I've really despised myself for having it, especially for the social difficulties it brings. But I've learned to just accept it as part of who I am. "
Conditions like these are common in those with afflicted planets in Pisces, which is a watery, psychic, receptive sign. Not surprisingly, I have an afflicted Mars in the exact degree as your Moon, Alrah. The crux of the matter seems to be this: the brain is so sensitive that it developes artificial barriers as a defense mechanism. Otherwise the flow of information would be overwhelming. I'm glad you've learned to overcome your difficulties. The sick being, if they manage to heal themselves, is often the most talented healer in turn. (By the way, our "condition" seems to have this upshot: wanton creativity.)
I've had a lot of difficulty adjusting to social contexts. But after years of meditation, Magical practice, and self-medication, I seem to be moving past this. Any disability can be treated if one learns to diagnose the problem properly. Ask Paracelsus.
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@Aum418 said
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They are subjective 'entities,' and externalized parts of oneself. There are no such thing as external, objective demons or angels just like there are no djinns and no Zeus and no Vishnu and no Loki and no Cherubim... they are metaphors, at best.IAO131"
Totally disagree. at best it's both. But external beings - definately in at least many cases.
when you actually get a result of something manifesting so that it casts it's own shadow in your room, moves before your eyes and can be witnessed by another - it's no longer a "subjective aspect of one's self."
Sadly, one of my greatest frustrations with Crowley is his definition of magick as simply "change in conformity with will" -
That would ascribe magick to making a ham sandwhich. It's far greater then psychological blinks of ideas. or changes in personality. While that can be empowering... magick can also heal another outside of your "self", enrich, and make physical transformations. While that may not be the greatest use of Magick - it is certainly possible. But when it's psychologized down, it's just NLP (Neuro Linguistic Programing.)I agree it's in the mind, if we're saying that all matter, people, beings are of the mind. in some sense yes. But in the sense we are talking about, I think it's both. In some cases it can be subjective mental conditions, but in many cases it is external entities as unique as you or I.
so I ascribe to the answer: BOTH.
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@Arsihsis said
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@Blythe A. Blanche said
"I'm curious to the know everyone's opinion regarding the objetive reality or subjective illusions of gods, spirits, etc."In An Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial Magick featured at the beginning of 666's publication of the Goetia he says:
"An Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial Magick*":1i483fav]The spirits of the Goetia are portions of the human brain. Their seals therefore represent[...]methods of stimulating or regulating those particular spots (through the eye). The names of God are vibrations calculated to establish:
(a) General control of the brain. (Establishment of functions relative to the subtle world.)
(b) Control over the brain in detail. (Rank or type of the Spirit.)
(c) Control of one special portion. (Name of the Spirit.)"...and on a similar note:
"The Magical Record of the Beast*":1i483fav]Attainment 'is' Insanity. The whole point is to make it perfect in balance. (10:00pm 26 Dec. 1919)"
729"
However, that wasn't his view of Enochian Entities... (i.e. not aspects of the mind.)
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@ldtab said
"when you actually get a result of something manifesting so that it casts it's own shadow in your room, moves before your eyes and can be witnessed by another - it's no longer a "subjective aspect of one's self." "
Correct. Now it's a subjective aspect of two people.
(teasing, somewhat)@ldtab said
"Sadly, one of my greatest frustrations with Crowley is his definition of magick as simply "change in conformity with will" -
That would ascribe magick to making a ham sandwhich."I agree, I think it's an atrocious definition. Then again, it might serve a useful purpose in bringing levity ad humility to the general operation. Plus, even if we are to accept this definition, there would still be a big difference between "change in conformity to will" and "change in conformity to True Will"...
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"However, that wasn't his view of Enochian Entities... (i.e. not aspects of the mind.)"
Could you explain a little more? Where does he say this?
Good points, btw. Ascribing everything to one's own mind is a rather narrow view, considering all the stars besides one's self.
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@Takamba said
"I view there is a misunderstanding here in regards to "The Initiated Interpretation of Ceremonial Magic." He was Perdurabo when he wrote that, he was NOT [Nemo] when he published Liber 418."
Yeah Crowley seemed to changed his mind on some things through the course of his life. In his early works he leans towards the idea that Gods and spirits are purely psychological, but in Magick Without Tears he states that he believes in Gods that have a higher existence beyond the human psyche (though I don't think he was downplaying any of the psychological aspects of magick).