meditative state on cannabis
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For those of you on your "Vision Quest":
"By doing certain things certain results will follow; students are most earnestly warned against attributing objective reality or philosophic validity to any of them."
Obviously, when one ingests any sort of mind-altering substance, various spatial distortions/cosmic thingamabobs/visions/little green men wil manifest. What of it? Such things, in the last estimate, are little more than distractions upon the path. Instead of "whoa, what are all these pretty lights?!?!" the questions should really be: "How does this impact my Will?" "How does this substance allow me to realize my Will?" I've seen too many people get all google-eyed about their visions and wind up in the nut house.
While it is good for the young to experiment with their minds and bodies, there is a time to play, and a time to get down to business. Sure, it's fun to get stoned; I do it all the time. But it's important not to lose sight of one's true objective. Cannabis is a tool and a means, not an end in itself.
"I used to do Heroin (was addicted for years) and I found that the point in which one "nods" is an amazing aid for Meditation. I, of course, do not condone this nor am I telling anyone to go out and get opiates, I am just stating my opinion from what I know. I could see why Crowley used it so often with his followers at The Abbey. "
When I was stuck in purgatory (rehabilitation) there was this orange-clad monk who would come to class on Tuesdays. Those who stayed for meditation would get extra credit. So there I'd be, high on oxycotin, like one of those bobble toys on the dashboard--bob, bob, bob.
Sure, it helps with meditation--until you run out, that is. Opiate withdrawals are the worst feeling I've ever experienced. In the end, meditation is best accomplished straight and sober.Anybody here read "Diary of a Drug Fiend"? It's important, when taking any substance, to act in accordance with one's Will.
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I've found that cannabis is only useful for meditation when you haven't had it for a while.
As soon as you get into the "stoner's" way of life (e.g. number one sign: putting one together first thing upon waking
) then cannabis is TERRIBLE for meditation, really, really counterproductive. As tolerance sets in, and your body is awash with cannabinoids, the background feeling becomes the very opposite of the alertness and vibrancy required for meditation. Also, one becomes very lazy and procrastinating, which is a *generally *bad thing for a magician. You get great ideas, but you never put them - or any other ideas, for that matter - into practice. At best, it's possible to *function *in life as a "stoner", but that's really scraping the barrel of what's possible for a life.But in that "first flush" - for a few days, maybe - yes, I think it can be a very powerful aid, just as AC puts it in that extraordinary essay.
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My expierence of this matrix could be likened to being inside of a waterfall. There was depth, as if the air it self was getting thicker, mulitdemnsional . There was also a sensation of atoms condensing/ coelessing as they decended into the gravitational pull, and other atoms/molecules shifting around, sort of like that old computer game with the falling blocks that need to be fit together.
I tried to take the best advantage of the situation, I had thet feeling that at this moment I was very clearly at the point in which I could bring tangible changes to my life. I focused my intent upon what it was that I wanted to bring into my world, and it worked. I have attempted to regain this vision a few other times, with much less of a degree of sucess but seem to be able to shift close to it when I can have a significant period of quiet. I like to think that at this time, I am in a very real way walking between the worlds, and can access my dna to bring about changes in my physcial being. -
I'm pretty ambivalent about it. I find that cannabis is great for bringing peripheral cognitive processes into the foreground, which sounds like it would be a good adjunct for meditation, except that it's much easier to get distracted by this and lose track of the plot than it is in a sober, centered meditative state.
I am frequently left with the impression that my conceptual horizon is greatly expanded on cannabis but it saps me of the energy required to actually explore it.
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I highly recommend we first define what we mean by "meditation" in this case.
Do we mean mindless wanderings or the singular focus of willed thought?
In the first case, sure - smoke it if you got it.
In the second case, it could prove a useful distraction for training purposes but after it becomes habit, we have other questions to raise. "Who" or "what" is doing the meditating? -
@gurugeorge said
"I've found that cannabis is only useful for meditation when you haven't had it for a while.
As soon as you get into the "stoner's" way of life (e.g. number one sign: putting one together first thing upon waking
) then cannabis is TERRIBLE for meditation, really, really counterproductive. As tolerance sets in, and your body is awash with cannabinoids, the background feeling becomes the very opposite of the alertness and vibrancy required for meditation. Also, one becomes very lazy and procrastinating, which is a *generally *bad thing for a magician. You get great ideas, but you never put them - or any other ideas, for that matter - into practice. At best, it's possible to *function *in life as a "stoner", but that's really scraping the barrel of what's possible for a life.But in that "first flush" - for a few days, maybe - yes, I think it can be a very powerful aid, just as AC puts it in that extraordinary essay."
The great thing about pot is that it makes one very passive and receptive; the bad thing about pot is that it makes one very passive and receptive.
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@Alrah said
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@gurugeorge said
"I've found that cannabis is only useful for meditation when you haven't had it for a while.As soon as you get into the "stoner's" way of life (e.g. number one sign: putting one together first thing upon waking
) then cannabis is TERRIBLE for meditation, really, really counterproductive. As tolerance sets in, and your body is awash with cannabinoids, the background feeling becomes the very opposite of the alertness and vibrancy required for meditation. Also, one becomes very lazy and procrastinating, which is a *generally *bad thing for a magician. You get great ideas, but you never put them - or any other ideas, for that matter - into practice. At best, it's possible to *function *in life as a "stoner", but that's really scraping the barrel of what's possible for a life.But in that "first flush" - for a few days, maybe - yes, I think it can be a very powerful aid, just as AC puts it in that extraordinary essay."
Oh, come on! The work of stoners is everywhere. The work of the best plasterers and decorators is done by stoners. Do you think that people do these kind of mundane boring jobs for very long if they don't smoke? At least that way they can become 'one with the plaster'.
And what about all the music that's been produced?"You see, I think drugs have done some good things for us. I really do. And if you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, do me a favor. Go home tonight. Take all your albums, all your tapes and all your CDs and burn them. 'Cause you know what, the musicians that made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years were rrreal {shagging} high on drugs. The Beatles were so {shagging} high they let Ringo sing a few tunes." - Bill Hicks."
I'm not arguing against cannabis, or denying its benefits, I'm saying that it's counter-productive for meditation to get into the *habit *of it. You could have quoted me chillum-smokin' Hindu naga babas, and I would still have said the same thing
Interspersed with breaks - yes. Continuously - no.
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Obviously, it also depends on your personality, neurochemistry and other such issues. I know of a doctor of physics and a CEO who smokes daily and always seems very sharp. Me, however, can smoke very rarely before the tolerance (not addiction, though) sets up. If I smoke more often, it just makes me feel dumber and I the experience seems mainly boring; I just keep wishing the cannabinoids would go away so that I could think without the lettuce feeling in my brain.
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Came across an interesting site and video pertaining to this discussion:
www.neurosoup.net/videos/Terence-McKenna-on-Meditation-vs-Hallucinogens-33
I did a google search and watched some of Terence McKenna's lectures; I have to say I was blown away and revealed some interesting points about the "shamanic experience".
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@nderabloodredsky said
"Came across an interesting site and video pertaining to this discussion:
www.neurosoup.net/videos/Terence-McKenna-on-Meditation-vs-Hallucinogens-33
I did a google search and watched some of Terence McKenna's lectures; I have to say I was blown away and revealed some interesting points about the "shamanic experience"."
Terence McKenna was like the Indiana Jones of psychedelic research. His book "True Hallucinations" is definitely worth the trouble to acquire. That book was my "Mushroom Manual" for some time. It's a description of his journey to the Amazon, where he took Psilocybin and DMT as part of his "research." He relates DMT to Alchemy and the Gnostic Quest in a very original and thought-provoking way. Something of a subjective approach, but well written and entertaining, especially when they start contacting alien spacecraft.
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His book, "The Archaic Revival: Speculations on Psychedelic Mushrooms, the Amazon, Virtual Reality, UFOs, Evolution, Shamanism, the Rebirth of the Goddess, and the End of History" seems intriguing to me. Anybody read it?
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@nderabloodredsky said
"His book, "The Archaic Revival: Speculations on Psychedelic Mushrooms, the Amazon, Virtual Reality, UFOs, Evolution, Shamanism, the Rebirth of the Goddess, and the End of History" seems intriguing to me. Anybody read it?"
No, not as yet. Most of his ideas are pure speculation, however; the kind of "gnosis" one often receives Under the Influence of the psychedelic mushroom. It's hard to stay objective in such a state; I myself, whilst tripping, once became convinced that I was a member of an alien race, and that I was able to contact my "people" through a green rock I'd found in a riverbed. It was just a matter of time before the ship landed, and away we'd go on our stellar adventure.
Morning found me a mortal again, and slightly less convinced of my cosmic heritage. But it goes to show how one can be carried away by the experience. "Students are earnestly warned against attributing objective reality to any results..." Etc.
But there's still a good deal of value in McKenna's work. He definitely thinks outside the box. (For him I think it's more of a decahedron.) He just gets carried away with his Ideas.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"His book, "The Archaic Revival: Speculations on Psychedelic Mushrooms, the Amazon, Virtual Reality, UFOs, Evolution, Shamanism, the Rebirth of the Goddess, and the End of History" seems intriguing to me. Anybody read it?"
I read it about 10 years ago along with the rest of his works ...I found it absolutely fascinating.
729
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Thanks!
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@JPF said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"His book, "The Archaic Revival: Speculations on Psychedelic Mushrooms, the Amazon, Virtual Reality, UFOs, Evolution, Shamanism, the Rebirth of the Goddess, and the End of History" seems intriguing to me. Anybody read it?"No, not as yet. Most of his ideas are pure speculation, however; the kind of "gnosis" one often receives Under the Influence of the psychedelic mushroom. It's hard to stay objective in such a state; I myself, whilst tripping, once became convinced that I was a member of an alien race, and that I was able to contact my "people" through a green rock I'd found in a riverbed. It was just a matter of time before the ship landed, and away we'd go on our stellar adventure.
Morning found me a mortal again, and slightly less convinced of my cosmic heritage. But it goes to show how one can be carried away by the experience. "Students are earnestly warned against attributing objective reality to any results..." Etc.
But there's still a good deal of value in McKenna's work. He definitely thinks outside the box. (For him I think it's more of a decahedron.) He just gets carried away with his Ideas."
? I thought his point of the shamanic experience, or tripping, is a valid and perhaps necessary part of the spiritual work? I personally don't see how it is any different, except in degree, of magical evocation?
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@nderabloodredsky said
"? I thought his point of the shamanic experience, or tripping, is a valid and perhaps necessary part of the spiritual work? I personally don't see how it is any different, except in degree, of magical evocation?"
Of course the shamanic experience is fundamental to the Work. But not for its own sake. There's a tendency to get carried away with any psychedelic research: a tendency to take one's visions as valid. Psychedelics are a very handy shortcut. They make it possible to reach a level of consciousness that would take years of training for most. But it's silly to think that these states of mind can be had so cheaply. What psychedelics do, in a nutshell, is activate the kundalini energy. Without prior balancing, this energy is apt to manifest as Delusion, being unbalanced, uncontrolled. For stronger minds it is possible to control this energy, to alter it at Will. But other fall under sway. Witness Don Juan and Castaneda. There's a fine line between "the shamanic experience" and "madness". Most "medicine men" are merely channels for demonic forces. Ever seen video of Indians snorting DMT in the Amazon? Not a very appetizing sight. Unless you enjoy naked men with bloody snot on their face humping each other like monkeys.
If thou do ought joyous, let there be subtlety within!
Read about what happened to McKenna's brother after their Amazon experiment. He went, more or less, stark raving mad. Why? Because he allowed himself to think his experience was IMPORTANT. I can't tell you how many people I've met who smoked DMT for the first time, and suddenly thought they were going to save the world.
I think Crowley's words on the subject are perfect:
"I believe generally, on Ground both of Theory and Experience, so little as I have, that a Man must first be initiate, and established in Our Law, before he may use this Method. For in it is an Implication of our Secret Enlightenment, concerning the Universe, how its Nature is utterly Perfection. Now every Thought is a Separation, and he Medicine of that is to marry Each One with its Contradiction, as I have shewed formerly in many Writings. And thou shalt clap the one to the other with Vehemence of Spirit, swiftly as Light itself, that the Ecstasy be spontaneous. So therefore it is Expedient that thou have ravelled already in this Path of Antithesis, knowing perfectly the Answer to every Griph or Problem, and thy Mind ready therewith. For by the Property of this Grass all passeth with Speed incalculable of Wit, and an Hesitation should confound thee, breaking down thy ladder, and throwing back thy Mind to receive Impression from Environment, as at hy first beginning. Verily; the nature of this Method is Solution, and the Destruction of every Complexity by Explosion of Ecstasy, as every Element thereof is fulfilled by its Correlative, and is annihilated (since it loseth separate Existence) in the Orgasm that is consummated within the Bed of hy Mind."
There is no royal road to wisdom.