Z.Z.N.Z.
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Maybe I just don't understand the concept of Hell enough, but why would/could it be used to represent the unconscious?
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@kuniggety said
"Maybe I just don't understand the concept of Hell enough, but why would/could it be used to represent the unconscious?"
The word "hell" (from root hellen) means "the hidden place." It's most commonly a symbol for subconsciousness.
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Interesting, I appreciate the info. It's definitely something that I'll research more.
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One should note too that this formula has 11 syllables, which could mean something about its function. In a way, I personally believe that the Z.Z.N.Z formula serves to open the "Gate to the Abyss" in Daath, and some discoveries I've been making with a 11x11 magical square, and the numerical totals it shows, tend to confirm this suspicion:
Qameah of DAATH (Gate to the Qliphoth)Also, note that "Z...." can also be read as "Zazaz", which conceals a hidden 777 (=ZZZ). This is the numerical value of the greek word Stauros (Cαυρος, using stau or digamma as the initial letter, instead of sigma-tau) which means "Cross", and also of the hebrew Olam ha-Qliphoth (עולם הקליפות), the "World of Shells". 777 is also the value of the path of the Flaming Sword, from Kether to Malkuth.
Another interesting fact: the word "N........." could be seen as some type of "code-name" for Baphomet. In the first place we have "~N~", the letter Nun that corresponds to Scorpio and Atu XIII ("Death"), then we have "~SATAN~", and finally we have "~D~", the letter Daleth, corresponding to Venus and Atu III ("The Empress"), making thus the pair of Death and Love surrounding SATAN (the Adversary, the Flaming Lion-Serpent, Sh-T-N).
What are your thoughts on this?
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@Harpokrates said
"What are your thoughts on this?"
Since you asked...
(1) You through off the very important gematria by altering the letters.
(2) My understanding of Baphomet has almost nothing to do with the ideas you plugged into it.
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93,
This is all very interesting. You said something, Jim, that stuck out to me. You said that you have only used this when you saw no point of return, something that you had to move on. The "tone" of your words made this sound like a last ditch effort type deal. Mind if I ask what you consider a point of no return?
I see some possible use in this formula, but I am more interested in just how to "properly" use it. Or is it just something I'll have to decide for myself? I would take it, too, that this comes down to a matter of control, and the ability to bring together(unify?) once opened? Choronzon comes to mind.
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@FiliusBestia said
"You said something, Jim, that stuck out to me. You said that you have only used this when you saw no point of return, something that you had to move on. The "tone" of your words made this sound like a last ditch effort type deal. Mind if I ask what you consider a point of no return?"
That's not quite what I said. I said, "I've only used it in situations where there was no real turning back - one had to pass on through." It wasn't because of reaching a "pont of no return," nor a "last ditch effort," but because the actual experience had no turning back about it.
For example, jumping out of an airplane at 3,000 feet has no turning back. Once you commit to it, you continue until the experience is over.
"I see some possible use in this formula, but I am more interested in just how to "properly" use it. Or is it just something I'll have to decide for myself? I would take it, too, that this comes down to a matter of control, and the ability to bring together(unify?) once opened? Choronzon comes to mind."
It is used at a key point in the A.'.A.'. 1=10 initiation to signal the opening of the Pit, which at that level means the Path of Tav.
Another time it was shown in use is in Crowley's Vision of the 10th Aethyr in The Vision & the Voice.
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On a slight tangent, did Crowley name his daughter Lola Zaza based on this line for opening the Pit?
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93,
My mistake, Jim. Well, I am sure I'll get my experience then. It just caught my eye, so to say.
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Greetings Jim,
@Jim Eshelman said
"(1) You through off the very important gematria by altering the letters."
Actually what I did was using Crowley's own version of this same formula, according to Liber 418. In that text, in the invocation of the 10th Aethyr, the first word of this formula appears as "Z-Z-Z" (replace the "-" by A's), the second appears as "Z-Z-S", the third appears equal (N-S-T-N-D-), and the fourth appears as "Z-S-S". So there are three different ways of writing the same word Z... but, interestingly enough, both the "usual" version of the Z.Z.N.Z. formula and this specific version from Liber 418 share exactly the same value: 406.
@Jim Eshelman said
"(2) My understanding of Baphomet has almost nothing to do with the ideas you plugged into it."
And I don't think your understanding has to agree with my own understanding of Baphomet. If we want to be faithful to History, even Crowley's description of Baphomet has nothing to do with the almost mythical nature of the original Baphomet of the Knights Templar, which was described as a fierce-looking severed head with a long beard. I think that ideas and archetypes naturally evolve with time: so "my" view of Baphomet is just one perspective among many others, that can be equally (in)valid. No offense intended!
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@Harpokrates said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"(2) My understanding of Baphomet has almost nothing to do with the ideas you plugged into it."And I don't think your understanding has to agree with my own understanding of Baphomet."
I agree. But you asked for thoughts on your remarks, so I gave them.
Thanks for the gematria notes. I have the original V&V diaries at home and will try to remember to check against that tonight.
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@Iugum said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"These are the words Adam, per tradition, used to open the gates of Hell. their etymology is unknown. Treated as Hebrew, they enumerate tlo 406, the same as the word Tav, which is exactly consistent with where they are used in key places."A very quick and mundane question: at which stage of Tav? "Entering" or while at/"in" Tav itself working towards Yesod and Yetzirah?"
Entering. - Since it "makes it open,"
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Treated as Hebrew, they enumerate to 406, the same as the word Tav,"
Also, the word "Attah". So does that mean when performing the Qabalistic Cross, one begins in effect by opening the gates of "Hell"?
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@gmugmble said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Treated as Hebrew, they enumerate to 406, the same as the word Tav,"Also, the word "Attah". So does that mean when performing the Qabalistic Cross, one begins in effect by opening the gates of "Hell"?"
No - not all words with the same enumeration frame the main characteristics of that number, but the really important ones establish its basic nature.
By expressing Tav, one thing both the Qabalistic Cross and the phrase under discussion have in common is that they both articulate a cross, a four-fold extension from a center idea - and "cross" is the simple meaning of Tav.
This could digress into a separate discussion - perhaps started elsewhere? - of what we might examine to get the root idea of a given number. IMO the main points are: (1) The prime factors of the number. (2) Other key mathematical roots and relationships such as summations. (3) How the numeral is written in Hebrew, with the meanings distinctive of its letters. (4) The few most important words with the same numeration.
In the case of 406, ThV (Tav) is the way the numeral is written in Hebrew, and it can be more deeply understood by placing The Univers and The Hierophant side by side and meditating on them. It's prime factors are 2 x 7 x 29, so we can see ideas of Chokmah, Netzach, and Qoph (an interesting lineup on the Tree!) flowing into the single idea. Also, Tav is intimately related to 7 in another way, since the sum of the first 7 positive integers is 28, and the sum of 1 through 28 is 406. Related to the latter, we have to note that it is the Mystic Number of the Path of Tzaddi. Of its most important numerative correspondences, probably the most important are ThV and AThH already mentioned, with secondary words that support some of the themes above such as ADVN KL-HARTz, "Lord of all the earth," and ShVQ which, among other things, means "to desire." (Ther eare others.) Without synthesizing all of this, I submit that these are the core ideas from which a basic understanding of 406 would be based.