True Will and physical obstacles
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@Alrah said
"Good. I don't feel like trawling through stuff to get the relevant quotes to dispute you either."
I'm glad we disagree so agreeably.
On the actual subject of obstacles: last night I got good and tippled with a Scorpio friend of mine (Scorpios make great drinking buddies
), and our meandering conversation led to a discussion of the basic causes which set all humanity in motion: our fundamental urge to evolve. We obviously approach life differently, every one of us--but what comprises that difference?Our conlusion:
Well, it has to do with evolutionary choice. Different organisms take different paths of progression (or regress). And here is just another excellent illustration of the Tree of Life, which maps this evolution: start, finish, and all paths in between. A handy tool, methinks.
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@Alrah said
"As far as I know reincarnation is not part of the corpus of Thelemic doctrine, and as you know Crowley was extremely dubious about it."
Well, no, I don't know that at all. And Crowley wrote quite affirmatively about it, cataloguing his own past lives in as much detail as possible. It was certainly central to his understanding of reality.
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Yes, but he starts the same letter with:
"Do I believe in it?
Yes.
Why?
(1) Because I remember a dozen or so of my previous lives on earth. (See Magick, Chapter VI.)
(2) Because no other theory satisfies my feeling for "justesse," for equilibrium, for Newton's Third Law of Motion.
(3) Because every religion asserts, or at least implies, it in some sense of other."
In Book 4:
"There is no more important task than the exploration of one's previous incarnations."
And in Liber ThIshARB:
"It is of such importance to the Exempt Adept that We cannot overrate it. Let him in no wise adventure the plunge into the Abyss until he have accomplished this to his most perfectest satisfaction. "
Obviously, Crowley was not one to accept something totally without proof, and didn't encourage credulity in his students (quite the opposite). And whether Crowley believed something or not shouldn't override our own perceptions. He was just honest about the foundation of his beliefs.
And warning about the dangers of something is not the same as saying "don't ever do this".
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And his most extensive writing on the subject is probably Chapter VII of Magick in Theory & Practice.
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@Alrah said
"Munindo did a good podcast on this matter (I'm a fan of the abbot).
Ego too is just so: aruno.org//index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=109&Itemid=9"
Daaamn! That podcast just united almost every one of the huge trains of thought that have been populating my mind for the past 4 months! Thanks Alrah.
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@Alrah said
"Quite affirmatively? In Magick Without Tears, letter XLVII, after explaining Blavatsky orthodox theory of reincarnation (with some degree of irreverency I might add) he then states, "Most of this is the merest speculation, useless and possibly harmful; but I don't mind relaxing occasionally to that extent."
He concludes the letter writing ""Now, dear sister, I don't like this letter at all, and I am sorry that I had to write it. For most of these statements are insusceptible of proof.
"And yet I feel their truth much more strongly than I have ventured to express. How many times have I warned you against 'feelings?'"
In letter XLI he cannot be clearer when he writes of speculations of life after death as not only "idle and senseless because you cannot possibly verify their accuracy, but a deadly poison [...] I say 'deadly poison;' because when you analyse you see at once that this is a device for flattering yourself."
He also adds a disclaimer to Liber Aleph. "
I think he was more concerned with debunking "Toshosophical" ho-hum. Crowley hated the Theosophists. The Theosophists had an annoying habit (which has carried over to today's "New Age" circles) of accepting fancy as fact. His primary concern was to instil the method of scientific observation (objectivity) in his students, a method the Theosophists very conveniently disregarded to make room for their fantasic theories. Their doctrine was a variation on: "If it feels right, it must be right." Obviously this is incompatable with Scientific Illuminism, and it was this distinction that comprises his "dubious" stance on reincarnation.
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"Crowley hated the Theosophists"
Did he?
I was under the impression that while he didn't like the whole Krishnamurti thing that they tried to advertise (seeing it as competing business?), he did have some respect for Blavatsky (one of the founders). Also, didn't he attribute some importance to his being born in the year that the Theosophical Society was founded (1875); I fail to see how this would be that significant if he strictly looked down on the Theosophists.
I don't have enough documented examples of Crowley talking about the Theosophists to get a clear picture of his thoughts - if you have any examples, I would appreciate it.
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hehe.... I guess I meant - do you have any examples of quotes to support the case that Crowley hated the Theosophists - not, do you know how to use google (But thanks AvshalomBinyamin anyway - a useful example none the less).
The first quote I found from the link was this:
""She, and she alone, made Theosophy possible, and without Theosophy the world-wide interest in similar matters would never have been aroused. This interest is to the Law of Thelema what the preaching of John the Baptist was to Christianity." - Book 4, Part 1"
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I know, I was just giving you a hard time.
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@Tinman said
"hehe.... I guess I meant - do you have any examples of quotes to support the case that Crowley hated the Theosophists - not, do you know how to use google (But thanks AvshalomBinyamin anyway - a useful example none the less).
The first quote I found from the link was this:
""She, and she alone, made Theosophy possible, and without Theosophy the world-wide interest in similar matters would never have been aroused. This interest is to the Law of Thelema what the preaching of John the Baptist was to Christianity." - Book 4, Part 1"
"Ah, forgive me! I was thinking of Mary Baker Eddy, and Christian Science. I knew not what I wrote.
Thanks for demanding evidence. You are a living testament to the uses of Scientific Illuminism!
blush
Kids, this is why you stay in school.
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I only asked because I wasn't so sure myself. I'm still not sure.
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@Tinman said
"I only asked because I wasn't so sure myself. I'm still not sure."
I was going from some statement or other of H. Beta's, about Crowley's dislike of the "Toshosophists."
I tied this together with his words on Eddy, and came to an untenable conclusion. It seems, on reflection, that Crowley could take a critical stance on just about anything. On the whole, he would appear to view Theosophy as a positive thing.
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Some days you feel like a nut... some days you don't
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Are we done with the original topic? Hmm?