Doubts about initiation. Suggestions, please :?
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93,
Underabloodredsky wrote:"I do not think so-called initiatory schools actually initiate, either now or ever; only life Herself and/or the HGA does this. "
In one sense yes, you are absolutely correct. But as people use (to quote your list) lectures, rituals, dramatic rites, drama as well as sex, drugs, and rock & roll in order to change themselves, so do people use the ceremony of initiation to open themselves to energy that is simply inaccessible without the triggering links that are created in and by that ceremony. And if the candidate isn't ready, initiation doesn't really take, not in any obvious or conscious way.
But this is way more than a clean, simple digestion of one phase of life and engagement in another. I don't know your own history, but I've been through several "start-up ceremonies." There is a difference between a friendly get together with some well-chosen words and a bit of ritual mummery ... and something that, in the next few days, opens a window that you didn't even know existed before. If you''ve not experienced the latter, then you've lost out on something rare and valuable.
I want to reiterate that I believe all the nay-saying about initiation stems from fear of being made helpless like a small child. Either people are equating the initiator or initiating group with a stern parent, or they're viewing the process as a subtler form of experiencing that situation; in effect, a kind of demonic possession.
"If they initiate you, their Group Spirit grabs you, and then you can't get out of their cult," is the implied statement. Which is just what a bad family or school situation can feel like.
But do ask first - if I don't like the Order, under what terms can I quit? You'll find any serious fraternity has rules and regs to cover that, which bind its own leadership, not just the members. If they waffle about how and when you can resign, then they're not what you want.
93 93/93,
Edward
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The more I think about it, particularly the ancient Greek & Eqyptian orgiastic mystery rites, probably was a genuine initiatory experience.
I see your point about the "in the next few days, opens a window that you didn't even know existed before" and I think that is quite valid. However, I am not sure what the cause of that is, whether it is from other parts of the ceremony, just having other people with focused and trained wills exerting their thoughts on the candidate, thereby causing change to occur in the astral or mental bodies.
As I said, this is something I am currently pondering, .i.e. what is initiation really. The point I want to emphasise in this thread however, is that the individual is solely responsible and capable for one's own spiritual development and that everything else is secondary. It is not an either/or scenario either. Some people seem to think I am advocating a solitary vs. fraternal system, and I am not saying that at all. It is just very dangerous to start believing that attainment to the highest can only be bestowed from without, or you have to following this particular system over that one etc. ad nauseum.
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93,
"The point I want to emphasise in this thread however, is that the individual is solely responsible and capable for one's own spiritual development and that everything else is secondary. "
That's where we differ. For me, spiritual development is something for which I'm responsible in the sense of fixing and cleaning the house for it to be ready for the Guest to arrive (actually, the Owner). But I need help from That to which I aspire.
"It is not an either/or scenario either. Some people seem to think I am advocating a solitary vs. fraternal system, and I am not saying that at all. "
Acknowledged.
"It is just very dangerous to start believing that attainment to the highest can only be bestowed from without, or you have to following this particular system over that one etc. ad nauseum."
I agree on there being no exclusive systems - "thus ye have star and star, system and system," etc. But I don't think anyone has ever suggested that attainment to the highest is conferred through initiation or ceremony. Attainment to the Highest - or even just the "Pretty High Up, All Considered" - is the end-result of the study, effort and meditation that follow initiation. Every initiate has the capability of delaying, screwing up, or just finding other things to do with his/her time.
93 93/93,
Edward
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@nderabloodredsky said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I continue to chuckle that so many are speaking of the end as if it's the beginning.Every joke has its punchline; but it isn't very effective without the right setup.
"What does that mean? I can't have a genuine spiritual experience because I haven't done steps A, B, or C in somebody's curriculum?"
There are different ways to set up a joke. I wasn't saying there is only a single way to deliver the punchline.
But this discussion kept returning to the idea that you can start at the end. You can't. Your path may be distinctive, but it is a path, a progressive growth.
Let's also please distinguish between "having a genuine spiritual expierience" and stabilizing in the state where it is the norm. Most people have all sorts of flashes and previews and sips along the way. They're important. They're foreshadowing, teasers, motivation to continue etc. But the ad for the movie shouldn't be confused with the movie.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"As I said, this is something I am currently pondering, .i.e. what is initiation really."
In pondering it, consider that the term isn't used the same way by everyone. For example, Masons call their ceremonies "iniitiations." Some other groups call every ceremony at every degree "initiations." (Temple of Thelema has three initiations - at 0°, 5°, and 8° - and the other degrees are called something else. So don't get tripped on semantics.) In founding Aspirants to Light, we were careful never to use the term "initiate" at any point, because its degrees (like those of Freemasonry) are all at a level prior to the point that we feel the first initiation occurs.
Please remember that the word "initiate" is used in the Mysteries as it is used in a dictionary: It means a start. It doesn't mean the final result. Those who are sometimes called "great initiates" should, rather, usually be called "great initiators." An initiation is an inauguration - a start - a beginniing.
"The point I want to emphasise in this thread however, is that the individual is solely responsible and capable for one's own spiritual development and that everything else is secondary. It is not an either/or scenario either. Some people seem to think I am advocating a solitary vs. fraternal system, and I am not saying that at all. It is just very dangerous to start believing that attainment to the highest can only be bestowed from without, or you have to following this particular system over that one etc. ad nauseum."
I completely agree that the conclusion is an individual step. I'm just not at all convinced that much of anybody in this world can get the start on their own.
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wow how i have argued this before with other people, fun but touchy subject.
I have a few friends in the pagan community that are just against anything organized, from a belief that you should be the one with the machete wacking the weeds to clear your own path, not following one already wacked.
with that being said, its a good start to get your own self independence up and what not, but it is hard to dig yourself out of your own grave, and takes the strongest willed people with clarity to do it, and takes a bit longer.The bad part of taking it in your hands is that alot of people will "stop" at a cirtain point, for example, not completing the great work in this life, and what i mean by that is i have met many people, family and friends who have like a hovering concrete slap over there aura that limits them rising to the next level of their spiritual evolution, and as most people like to use the excuse we are just human, ile find it on my own time and all that good stuff. people without organizations or good teachers fall to the prey of being comfortable at a certain level.
but, if you truly want to get somewhere, get a teacher. and i think it all truly depends on how far you are willilng to go and rip apart your barriers to hopefully come out alive and fully functional, which is what a good teacher or mystic school is for, to help you and guide you to pick up your own pieces at each evolutionary stage, so you have a better chance at getting somewhere and "attaining this so called end result".
and i have met lots of people who get caught up in fluffy communities, getting wrong ideas, creating bigger concrete slabs on their heads, where honestly most people do not even get up to being the equivalent of a neophyte in the AA, because they may stick with a formal systems, but do not receive formal training, more concrete slabs everywhere. invest in a hammer
P.S. i dont know everything, i know alot from experience and no im not past neophyte stage, just been around long enough to see what stops people.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"As I said, this is something I am currently pondering, .i.e. what is initiation really. "
Here's a story that helped my understanding:
In order to explain this idea the faqirs and dervishes have told a story. A lion roaming through the desert found a little lion cub playing with the sheep. It so happened that the little lion had been reared with the sheep, and so had never had a chance or an occasion to realize what he was. The lion was greatly surprised to see a young lion cub running away with the same fear of the lion as the sheep. He jumped in among the flock of sheep and roared: 'Halt, halt!', but the sheep ran on, and the little lion ran also. The lion pursued only the cub, not the sheep, and said: 'Wait, I wish to speak to you'. The cub answered: 'I tremble, I fear, I cannot stand before you'. 'Why are you running about with the sheep? You are a little lion yourself!' 'No, I am a sheep. I tremble, I am afraid of you. Let me go. Let me go with the sheep!' 'Come along', said the lion, 'come with me. I will take you and I will show you what you are before I let you go'. Trembling and yet helpless, the lion cub followed the lion to a pool of water. There the lion said: 'Look at me, and look at yourself. Are we not closer, are we not near? You are not like the sheep, you are like me'.
In this story the roaming lion is the 'initiator'.
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@skytoucher said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"As I said, this is something I am currently pondering, .i.e. what is initiation really. "Here's a story that helped my understanding:
In order to explain this idea the faqirs and dervishes have told a story. A lion roaming through the desert found a little lion cub playing with the sheep. It so happened that the little lion had been reared with the sheep, and so had never had a chance or an occasion to realize what he was. The lion was greatly surprised to see a young lion cub running away with the same fear of the lion as the sheep. He jumped in among the flock of sheep and roared: 'Halt, halt!', but the sheep ran on, and the little lion ran also. The lion pursued only the cub, not the sheep, and said: 'Wait, I wish to speak to you'. The cub answered: 'I tremble, I fear, I cannot stand before you'. 'Why are you running about with the sheep? You are a little lion yourself!' 'No, I am a sheep. I tremble, I am afraid of you. Let me go. Let me go with the sheep!' 'Come along', said the lion, 'come with me. I will take you and I will show you what you are before I let you go'. Trembling and yet helpless, the lion cub followed the lion to a pool of water. There the lion said: 'Look at me, and look at yourself. Are we not closer, are we not near? You are not like the sheep, you are like me'.
In this story the roaming lion is the 'initiator'."
So, what would we call a wolf in sheep's clothing?
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"So, what would we call a wolf in sheep's clothing?"
Christianity?
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It is said: When the student is ready the Master will appear. The best way to deal with the question of finding a teacher is to do the things that seem most appropriate to you. Let go of the concern, and just be you. The correct path will open before you. Some call it finding harmony with the Dao.
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What do you plan to do with your attainment?
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That's a zen koan right there.
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@Edward Mason said
"I'll place a small land-mine in this discussion, by saying I don't think it's actually about initiation and teachers. Rather, it's about the fear of finding yourself once again stuck with a bad parent. Reprising childhood is, for many people, a terror worse than anything the adult world can offer. "
I think this is very largely true, or at least it struck a strong note with me.
However, I would also offer that for some it might not just be the bad parent, but simply a bad school experience.
I'd happily take a 1000 matriarchal beatings over having to go back to school....
