What's it like?
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@Dannerz said
"If at the higher grades, people really do tap a greater cosmic power, the like which can preform a miracle or more, then the power will be always taken away by an opportunistic spirit somehow so that either it is secretly owned by the spirit, or overtly owned, unless the power is protected by either another friend-spirit of superior capacity, or protected by the magician/holder by means of his full superiority towards the opportunistic spirit."
False. - For example, spirits cannot take away what you inherently are, or what you have as a direct consequence of what you are. This definition covers all real "powers" gained as a consequence of spiritual work.
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I happen to believe that all structural phenomenon can not only be improved, but also they can potentially be degraded, relocated, destroyed, altered or in any other variety of ways, changed.
I've seen people loose higher capacities before; it's not rare.
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@Dannerz said
"I happen to believe that all structural phenomenon can not only be improved, but also they can potentially be degraded, relocated, destroyed, altered or in any other variety of ways, changed.
I've seen people loose higher capacities before; it's not rare."
I don't doubt any of that. I was only disagreeing that spirits had anything to do with it.
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Would one be able to compare the attainments of the Second and Third Order with the Siddhis of Yoga?
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@Frater Pramudita said
"Would one be able to compare the attainments of the Second and Third Order with the Siddhis of Yoga?"
The siddhis that have not already appeared by that time tend to manifest at 6=5. (The nature of the grade is "powers," to a certain extent.)
Which siddhi list did you have in mind? (There are many.)
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I'd like to ask a couple of personal questions if I may?
In people's opinions, do they think it is possible to attain within an A.'.A.'. Grade system while holding down a 9-5?
Would it be more likely to lead to failure, or would it just mean each grade taking a lot longer to reach?Is there an age limit in joining, not so much in concrete regulation terms, but is it less likely that someone of advanced years will progress sufficiently to satisfy them (whatever that means, but it was the best word I had)?
I ask the second in light of my knowledge of Chess.
No adult that started chess has ever reached GrandMaster status. Every single one began as a child and dedicated their life to mastery, children having far greater capacity for learning (e.g a gifted child can look at improving up to 400 rating points per year, a similarly gifted adult might manage 100-200 points in the same time) Would you say the same applies to progress in the A.'.A.'.? -
@Poe said
"In people's opinions, do they think it is possible to attain within an A.'.A.'. Grade system while holding down a 9-5?"
I've attained nearly all my A.'.A.'. grades while holding down a 9-to-5 (or something like it).
During my Abramelin operation in 5=6, I had the luxury of having my own private law practice so that I had more flexibility. Still, it was one of the busiest, most aggressive times of my law practice, with a caseload of about 500. If I had tried the Operation outside the context of the grade system, I don't think I could have pulled it off - but, after finishing Dominus Liminis, the momentum was very strong and my training and preparation had been sufficient that I was able to do it.
"Would it be more likely to lead to failure, or would it just mean each grade taking a lot longer to reach?"
Or even less long? See, I don't think there's a rule for this. I think people undervalue the Western spiritual dharma, which is very different from that of the East: It is to be in the world, dealing with affairs of the world, and drawing spirituality into the field of action and manifestation, rather than withdrawing.
In contrast, I've seen (in myself and others) that, during periods of (say) unemployment it's harder to keep motivation and attention up consistently on much of anything. The discipline of the day is a powerful tool! (Hence the recommendation to the unemployed to get up early every morning, shower etc. and dress as if for work, show up at your desk at a specific time and put in a specific number of hours looking for work. Act like you're on the job, but your current job is work. This same head-space seems, to me, the most likely to assist in any undertaking involving discipline, regularity, attention, energy rising to handle whatever comes along, etc.)
"Is there an age limit in joining, not so much in concrete regulation terms, but is it less likely that someone of advanced years will progress sufficiently to satisfy them (whatever that means, but it was the best word I had)?"
There is no maximum age. There could, of course, be secondary considerations consequent to age, but one must just deal with them. For example, energy isn't always what it once was. I'm also happy I did my large blocks of verbatim memorization as a much younger man. Also, if one is starting out late, there may be a different threshold to meet on motivation (perhaps a shadow element creeping in of "not having much time to get very far"); as with almost any other area of life, one has to have acceptance that one will accomplish what one can, and it will be a foundation for the next round.
"I ask the second in light of my knowledge of Chess. No adult that started chess has ever reached GrandMaster status. Every single one began as a child and dedicated their life to mastery, children having far greater capacity for learning (e.g a gifted child can look at improving up to 400 rating points per year, a similarly gifted adult might manage 100-200 points in the same time) Would you say the same applies to progress in the A.'.A.'.?"
I would not. I'd say that yes, there are differences; but the differences cut both ways. For example, there is out-and-out growth and maturity that have come simply from living, but which the young have to sort of brute-force develop early. There is actual wisdom (accumulated experience and perspective) that one just can't get without living the years. In other words, you surely have been 'doing your homework' just by living life, and that is a benefit to be balanced against the disadvantages mentioned above.
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@Jim Eshelman said
" I think people undervalue the Western spiritual dharma, which is very different from that of the East: It is to be in the world, dealing with affairs of the world, and drawing spirituality into the field of action and manifestation, rather than withdrawing. "
Click.
Hugely helpful. Thank you very much.
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I was in particular (and I know there are many more I'm not mentioning), wondering about Tri-Kala-jnatvam, Haadi Vidya, the Vaya Gaman Siddhi (or Manah-Javah), and in particular to my own case, Aparajayah?
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@Frater Pramudita said
"I was in particular (and I know there are many more I'm not mentioning), wondering about Tri-Kala-jnatvam, Haadi Vidya, the Vaya Gaman Siddhi (or Manah-Javah), and in particular to my own case, Aparajayah?"
English please! <vbg>
You know, words like, "Growing to giant height, passing through walls, shrinking to the size of an atom..." Are any of these the classic Siddhis you mean?
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Care Frater,
Apologies, my mind to this day is geared in an Eastern direction, although not quite so much as before. The Siddhis I was particuarily wondering about were:
Tri-Kala-jnatvam - Knowing the past, present and future
Haadi Vidya, wherein a person feels neither hunger nor thirst, and can remain without eating food or drinking water for several days at a stretch.
The Vaya Gaman Siddhi, or it's Manah-Javah secondary counterpart, where a person can become capable of flying in the skies and traveling from one place to another in just a few seconds (moving the body wherever thought goes)
and finally, especially I should say, the Aparajayah Siddhi, or, remaining unconquered by others ****** which I have a person concern with?
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@Poe said
"In people's opinions, do they think it is possible to attain within an A.'.A.'. Grade system while holding down a 9-5?
Would it be more likely to lead to failure, or would it just mean each grade taking a lot longer to reach?Is there an age limit in joining, not so much in concrete regulation terms, but is it less likely that someone of advanced years will progress sufficiently to satisfy them (whatever that means, but it was the best word I had)?"
Dion Fortune has this to say about the Path of the Hearth Fire;
[...]karma that has to be worked out before that soul is ready
for the Path, and the bonds of obligations are laid upon it
in order that they may be its discipline. The way which
such a soul is destined to follow is known as* the path of
the Hearth-Fire, and is as true a way of initiation as any
of the disciplines imposed by the occult fraternities.**
Neither is it a quicker or slower way of initiation than
any other. A builder may spend much time in gathering
together the materials of the house he intends to build;
he may fashion those materials section by section and spend
days and weeks at the work, and yet no wall begins to rise;
then, after much careful and accurate work, he comes to
the stage when he is ready to assemble the parts he has so
laboriously constructed, and in a few hours the perfectly-
matched sections are bolted together and the structure is
up.
So it is with the preparation for initiation. The candidate
may spend long years in the preliminary training;
disciplining mind and body, learning all the lessons of life,
loosening his hold on the desires and dreams of matter, and
patiently waiting for the longed-for admission to the
Mysteries; and then, after the long and weary task has
been fulfilled, and he comes, perhaps in the evening of his
days, to the opportunity so long forgone, he will find that
the weary years of patient bearing of burdens have taken
his consciousness through many degrees of discipline and
initiation, and that when he comes to the Mysteries, he
will pass rapidly through the Outer Court and find himself
admitted to the Temple. If life has taught him the lessons
of occult discipline the Lesser Initiator has no need to teach
them to him, but, having tested him to prove his
experience, vouches for him to the Great Initiator.*Amen.
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Thanks Labyrinthus, thats a good quote.
Though thankfully, I'm not yet at the "Hearth" stage of life.
I guess my concerns would mainly revolve around the memorisation aspects required, which Jim said he got an early start in. Though I did have an early start with exposure to different planes and experiences, so I guess the question I really need to ask myself is do I think myself capable of the grunt work regarding the Hebrew and Correspondences etc.
(or - do I want to, if we're being totally honest here)
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"When I first was admitted into A.'.A.'. as a Probationer, in 1979, I remember being in awe of the magnitude of its teachings, and of the precision of its pathway â a step-by-step unfolding of oneself unto a particular spiritual goal. In subsequent years, I lost that initial, childlike sense of wonder. In the last two or three years, it has revisited me often.
Thinking back to that first, innocent exposure, I recall a thought that passed through my mind at the time. Not a goal, hardly a plan, barely a reverie. Just a thought. It was that if I followed this system, step-by-step, and succeeded in it, this would be a proof to the world that the system bore inherent virtue, and would instill confidence in the method itself. So, with this thought behind me, I threw myself into it. To reach the full measure of my initial goal took 14 years. For what it may be worth to anyone else, I have walked the A.'.A.'.âs prescribed path, step by meticulous step, until I came to its end; and I stand as a single (but hardly singular) witness that it fulfilled every one of its promises to me, and more."
Inspirational beyond measure Jim.