The Tridentine Mass as a Form of the Augoeides Invocation
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@nderabloodredsky said
"1. First of all, having a separate language set aside just for ritual, such as Latin, automatically exalts one's conscious. Add to this that EVERYTHING is chanted according to very strict musical modes dictated by the Sacred Sciences of the Greeks and Egyptians; a study in and of itself.
- You have a sacred and consecrated space... "
Ye--...
acheummm.
cough....
excuse me....
something in my eye...
... I'll have to get back to you later....
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@Labyrinthus said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"1. First of all, having a separate language set aside just for ritual, such as Latin, automatically exalts one's conscious. Add to this that EVERYTHING is chanted according to very strict musical modes dictated by the Sacred Sciences of the Greeks and Egyptians; a study in and of itself.- You have a sacred and consecrated space... "
Ye--...
acheummm.
cough....
excuse me....
something in my eye...
... I'll have to get back to you later...."
Do I detect some sarcasm??
That's OK, but just to be clear, I am not promoting the Roman Catholic Tridentine Mass itself, only that one could use the structure of Ritual as an outline to build your own, which I think has been done before? Hmmmm... Let's see.... I think I recall..... Wait ...I believe someone named Crodey, or Crowly or something did that once?
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@Steven Cranmer said
"Quite nice!
"a structure none the less on which to build our own Barge, our own ship to carry us to the top of the Holy Mountain and to the highest reaches of Heaven."
I'm sure the imagery above was *(http://hermetic.com/crowley/libers/lib800ship.html:3gevzeo6)
"I wish I could take credit for that.... Just thought is sounded poetic!
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I don't remember the source, so I can't vouch for this, but I remember reading that Crowley wrote the gnostic mass after watching, and being inspired by, the tridentine mass.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"Do I detect some sarcasm??"
None at all. I had made nearly all the same observations that you listed and it was refreshing to see someone else not only saw it but went to a fair amount of trouble to lay it all out so plainly. Thank you.
I had more to say but I had a 'ritual' commitment of my own that I had to attend to.
The Tridentine Mass is a beautiful ritual steeped in ancient tradition, as you said. The content is not that bad either, if you ask me. So there is one line where they pray for the conversion of the Jews... so what? I think they mean it in a nice way.
I did not make a study of it but I skim-read through Crowley's Gnostic Mass and it was just page after page of closely copying the Tridentine ritual. I read somewhere that Crowley made Frater Achad convert to Catholicism and receive the sacraments up through Confirmation as part of his training. If true, I would bet there is an interesting story behind all that.
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@Labyrinthus said
"I read somewhere that Crowley made Frater Achad convert to Catholicism and receive the sacraments up through Confirmation as part of his training. If true, I would bet there is an interesting story behind all that."
Crowley did not make Achad convert to Catholicism, crazy Fr. Achad did that on his own and probably under the influence of the "Universal Brotherhood" which was a Roman Catholic occult infiltration group.
Yes, I believe the guy was an absolute whack-job, completely off his rockers, and insane in the clinical sense of the word. He may have experienced very high and exalted states of consciousness, but failed miserably to manifest his attainment.
72
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@TheSilent1 said
"crazy Fr. Achad did that on his own and probably under the influence of the "Universal Brotherhood" which was a Roman Catholic occult infiltration group."
I had never heard of this Universal Brotherhood and tried to find more info and got only something about it having to do with Theosophy. The words " "Universal Brotherhood" which was a Roman Catholic occult infiltration group" are out there but only as part of articles that did not make much of a sensible presentation.
Do you know where reliable info on that can be found?
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@Labyrinthus said
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@nderabloodredsky said
"Do I detect some sarcasm??"None at all. I had made nearly all the same observations that you listed and it was refreshing to see someone else not only saw it but went to a fair amount of trouble to lay it all out so plainly. Thank you.
I had more to say but I had a 'ritual' commitment of my own that I had to attend to.
The Tridentine Mass is a beautiful ritual steeped in ancient tradition, as you said. The content is not that bad either, if you ask me. So there is one line where they pray for the conversion of the Jews... so what? I think they mean it in a nice way.
I did not make a study of it but I skim-read through Crowley's Gnostic Mass and it was just page after page of closely copying the Tridentine ritual. I read somewhere that Crowley made Frater Achad convert to Catholicism and receive the sacraments up through Confirmation as part of his training. If true, I would bet there is an interesting story behind all that."
Sorry I mistook the tone there, Labyrinthus. I agree that some of the content is quite beautiful and we use a lot of it in Western Magic; as I'm sure you know, one of the most glaring examples being the last part of the Pater Noster compared with the Qabalistic Cross.
The Tridentine Mass and Christmas Vigil are some of the grandest Pagan events I have ever witnessed. You start out with consecrated fire, then make three deosil processions outside of the Church, which being traditionally designed is surrounded by a low wall of interlocking Vesica Pisces. I'm giddy with mirth as I contemplate that Female symbol as I walk down the main isle and see stone engravings in the floor of long-slender candles with flames spurting forth that any normal, non-brainwashed human being would instantly recognise as Phallic! Then there are these fantastic statues of the Goddess and Archangels, all these Saints, and of course, lots of incense. Oh, and the Chant, if its done well rivals anything the Tibetans do, and I love that as well.
It is well known that the early Church built their churches directly over (or just adapted) the Temples of the Ancient World in Egypt, Greece and Rome, and I think the same was done with some of the Rituals. I mean everyone knows that Easter and Christmas are Equinox and Solstice events that have been celebrated in Ritual since pre-historic times.
However, the Mass as it is, without the proper initiation, has really become a propaganda tool and false-substitute for the real and genuine spiritual experience. It's too bad, but its time, in that incarnation has passed. It must be torn down. But what to build in it's place? That is one of the questions I have sought to answer above.
There is a gulf of understanding that separates the initiate from the ignorant with regard to symbol and religion, and this ignorance is exploited by the ruling elite to facilitate control of the populace and retain control, (which is fundamentally a question of denying the Universal Law of CHANGE). Take the 2000 year domination of ROMAN Christianity, colonisation, slavery, war etc. in the West. Take the oppressive caste system of the Hindu. Take the current persecution and occupation of Tibet etc. etc. etc.
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@nderabloodredsky said
"...as I contemplate that Female symbol as I walk down the main isle and see stone engravings in the floor of long-slender candles with flames spurting forth that any normal, non-brainwashed human being would instantly recognise as Phallic!"
I don't think it is brainwashed so much as stultifying indifference. I recall being openly taught by the priest as a teen in our church group that the candles on the alter were phallic symbols. The beeswax topped with a golden tip cocked at an angle specifically to present a phallic symbol. I bet 80% of the kids in that room completely forgot what the priest said within a few years. The masses are not ignorant because of any concerted effort to make them that way... they are ignorant because they choose to be that way. Most people would rather watch an episode of "Dancing With the Stars" than read a book about the stars.
War, slavery, etc. have been a part of all human cultures throughout history but for some reason the ROMAN culture gets slammed for it like no other. I just don't get it. The traditions and efforts of the Roman Church dragged an ignorant, superstitious, human sacrifice practicing, warlike people, kicking and screaming, out of ignorance and stupidity and gave rise to the most powerful civilization on the planet. Why perfection is expected of one Church while others get a pass makes no sense to me.
@nderabloodredsky said
"It's too bad, but its time, in that incarnation has passed. It must be torn down. But what to build in it's place? "
If its time has truly passed then there is no need to tear it down -- it will simply die a natural death. And a new organization will rise in its place, naturally, according the general level of Consciousness of the masses.
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I was speaking with some atheist skeptic friends of mine about "the Church." You see, they are beginning to develop a post-critical appreciation of the power of symbol and ritual (all former Catholics but me), and we came up with the most peculiar comparison: we toyed with the idea of comparing the survival strategy of the Roman Church to that of Apple Computer, Inc.
It spawned such an interesting discussion for us (having mixed feelings about both) that I think I'll just leave it there without taking any position on it at all.