The Bible
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I intend to attempt to go back to the Bible, both Old and New Testaments at some point, and try to really understand what they are as well as I am able, both through the Hebrew and English Old Testaments, and the Greek and English New Testaments (the Greek will be much later, as I don't see myself learning it in the near future). (Did I mix up the Greek and Hebrew histories of the two Testaments? I don't think so, but I might have.)
Does anyone have any ideas, thoughts, suggestions? Any idea where I should start, and if there are any other documents I should read that will help me understand it (which there probably are)? I intend to start with the English versions of both Testaments. What versions should I use? I presume I should use the King James Version for the New Testament, but don't know where to start for the Old Testament.
I believe I need to do this because I was raised Christian and felt something there, although I eventually left Christianity; and, now intending to pursue a Thelemic path seriously, I need to understand what happened and what the nature of Christianity was and is.
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lol I'm with ya. (Was also raised Christian, New-Born infact). For the longest time I have also wanted to study the bible, especially the old testiment, alot of magick in that one! But I would read it any old way. I beleive AC used a method of reading it, I've heard of it in several places, he really knew his bible. If anyone knows the method he used, feel welcome to plop it up here
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But if you dont find that method, you can atleast try to translate the orginal hebrew bible, or find a really damn good translation. I knew someone who traslated the first verse of Genises and it was like a paragraph in hebrew, describing the formation and creation of the 9 Arch Angels and what not. Deffiantely a different version then what common people on on their shelf. -
Download the free software e-sword: www.e-sword.ne
Download a bunch of free Bibles with it. At least get KJV; the KJV with Strongs; Hebrew OT; Greek NT; and any of the newer translations that you want. This will let you see it in the original language with a little help from Strong's (which is of limited value, but still a practical assist).
You could read a hundred thousand things in advance, but probably just start your read.
KJV (both OT and NT) remains one of the most beautiful renderings, despite its occasional accuracy problems. The translators strove for a highly literal translation, with the same Hebrew word always rendered the same in English. This isn't always the best way to render Hebrew, but it has certain value. You can look at some other, more modern translations to observe alternate renderings.
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Absofuckinglutely!
And please forgive me if I am so bold as to say "THANK YOU" to you, gentlemen, for attempting to understand me more than many. If I had a degree to give, I would tell you that you passed, and from the very heart of my best understanding of V.V.V.V.V. so far, tell you that you are worthy of what you require to do your WILL. Seriously, I have seen your love for humanity. I hope that you have seen mine.
So if any two of you are gathered together, and one of you has something the other needs, then may you greet one another warmly in fellowship, koinonia, which is just to say that I have understood myself to have made a vast leap in self-understanding, and I hope it is not too bold in your Universe to tell you that I love you, and compare you to the stars.
Because if it is, then we're just going to have to do a goddamned lot more studying and sacrificing, and you and I, sirs, fathers, and friends, deserve better than this.
What blessing I have to give you, I give it lovingly.
Psalm 133
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Thank all of you for your replies.
I'm debating asking my mom for aid on this, because she's a rather hardcore Christian and has spent most of her life studying both the Old and the New Testaments, and has considerable knowledge of both Hebrew and Greek... although I'm not so sure she'd give me anything resembling an unbiased opinion on any interpretation questions I ask.
Does anyone know of any historical sources on either Book? I'm pretty sure the questions about Jesus's life have to be asked and satisfactorily answered.
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@Ash said
"I'm debating asking my mom for aid on this, because she's a rather hardcore Christian and has spent most of her life studying both the Old and the New Testaments, and has considerable knowledge of both Hebrew and Greek... although I'm not so sure she'd give me anything resembling an unbiased opinion on any interpretation questions I ask.
Does anyone know of any historical sources on either Book? I'm pretty sure the questions about Jesus's life have to be asked and satisfactorily answered."
These would have very little to do with the message of The Bible
You might want to get a Chumesh: the five books of the Torah, in English and Hebrew, with traditional Jewish commentary. Here's a beautiful one I have and would recommend:
www.amazon.com/Chumash-Stone-ArtScroll-Mesorah/dp/0899060145 -
@Jim Eshelman said
"These would have very little to do with the message of The Bible
"This is true. I suppose I still haven't answered the "faith-based" questions yet - the modern conception of Christianity appears flawed and unfair to me, but I can't give a reason for rejecting it without understanding the "prophecies" that Jesus supposedly fulfilled, and their historical accuracy, and for me, I think this is a reasonably large (although separate from the Bible study proper) part of what I'll end up doing.
If I realized I also meant this earlier, I would have mentioned it before this point
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@Ash said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"These would have very little to do with the message of The Bible "This is true. I suppose I still haven't answered the "faith-based" questions yet - the modern conception of Christianity appears flawed and unfair to me, but I can't give a reason for rejecting it without understanding the "prophecies" that Jesus supposedly fulfilled, and their historical accuracy, and for me, I think this is a reasonably large (although separate from the Bible study proper) part of what I'll end up doing.
If I realized I also meant this earlier, I would have mentioned it before this point
"I think it's a mistake to confuse faith with facts. Each finds its home in its own part of the brain.
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I still haven't gotten to read Jung's analysis of the Book of Job.
Two other books of the Bible I'd like to discuss with someone sometime from a psychoanalytic context (when I have more time of course...) are Hosea and the Song of Solomon.
Perhaps it would help if I shared the reason for my own interest in the Bible. Once, during a very Phaeton-ish experience, or so it seemed at the time, I ended up staying back in my parent's house, in my old room that my father had since redecorated as a study/extra bedroom.
I was pretty bad off. But what helped me down out of the madness were both medication and the old Bible stories I had learned as a child. Suddenly, they were filled with an inexpressible glory for me. Story and Time wove in and out of each other as the stories became patterns of interaction in my mind. The frames became loose, and I was led thru strange synchronistic quasi-ritual after quasi-ritual of family interaction. After the sum of all them, I found myself understanding Thelema from an Old Aeon vocabulary and perspective, or at least having the ability to translate between the two to a certain degree. The hardest thing for me to understand was that both "languages" were true, at least from the perspective of the men and hearts who have lived those stories. Since then, I've been trying to find people who have seen and touched the same ancient and benevolent things I have touched, yet without confusing words or names.
That's why I sound funny. I have an Old Aeon dialect mixed with New Aeon psychological and psychoanalytic techniques and language. I have a lithp...
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@Ash said
"I intend to attempt to go back to the Bible, both Old and New Testaments at some point, and try to really understand what they are as well as I am able, both through the Hebrew and English Old Testaments, and the Greek and English New Testaments (the Greek will be much later, as I don't see myself learning it in the near future). (Did I mix up the Greek and Hebrew histories of the two Testaments? I don't think so, but I might have.)"
This is just great to see. I was raised in a very believing pentecostal environment and have had similar experiences and issues. In fact, these curiosities led to my eventual ability to make a full psychological break from the experiences of "belief" of the various things I had been conditioned to think.
In the process of trying to delineate all of these things for myself, I have ended up with degrees in both Classics and Semitic Languages. That said, I would be more than glad to do 'bible studies' along with you in the sense of answering any queries you might have concerning the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic of the originals.
Best of luck.
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@Dhakhair said
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In the process of trying to delineate all of these things for myself, I have ended up with degrees in both Classics and Semitic Languages. That said, I would be more than glad to do 'bible studies' along with you in the sense of answering any queries you might have concerning the Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic of the originals."I'll remember that, thank you
I'll probably end up posting thoughts and questions on the Bible in this sub-forum as I go along; I hope to conjoin the studying of the Old Testament in English with teaching myself Hebrew and diving deeper into the Qabalah in earnest (I now have 777 at my side, so that will surely help at some point).
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@Frater LA said
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Two other books of the Bible I'd like to discuss with someone sometime from a psychoanalytic context (when I have more time of course...) are Hosea and the Song of Solomon.
"If you're interested in Song of Solomon, Madame Guyon's commentary on it is worth checking out.