Fixed-air Aquarius is now the Eagle?!?
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@Scarecrow said
"Just wondering if anyone has any insight into this one:
The story as I understand it is that during his vision of the 23rd Enohcian AEthyr, it was revealed to Crowley that the emblem for fixed-air Aquarius is now the eagle, and the emblem for fixed-water is now the angel."
Ah! Uncle Aleister solves the Soggy Eagle Problem. I'm sure I'm not the only person who's been rather uncomfortable with the attribution of the Eagle to Water, when it seems intuitively to belong to Air. I'm glad someone with more knowledge than me has pronounced on this one.
" In the back of the Book of Thoth, Diagram 8 (the Sphinx) shows Man, being assigned to Air, to Aquarius, and scorpio is assigned to Water and the Water Dragon (which seems to be a mixture of the Snake and Eagle, with the Scorpion thrown out?)... so once again Crowley has ignored the new symbolism..."
You allude there to the three "octaves" of the representation of Scorpio - scorpion, snake and eagle, which seems to be part of AC's rationalisation for the earlier attribution. He refers to it in a number of places.
Is this tripartate nature of Scorpio due only to AC, or was it around before he commented on it? I don't think the Golden Dawn was exactly happy with the attribution; they do this strange thing of substituting a literal eagle's head for the symbol of Scorpio on the walls of the Vault and other places, while using the other three Kerubic signs in their traditional form.
There is also apparently an eagle (though it looks like a rather damp and coral-encrusted version) in the top left of Atu XIII in the Thoth cards, which is, of course, attributed to Scorpio. The scorpion and snake are there more obviously, as is some kind of blunt-nosed fish.
" Q1: Was this all just a slip up, and lack of attention to detail on AC's part?"
Perhaps it just took him time to digest the meaning of the message, as it did with the Emperor/Star switch. Or he decided to reveal it only "to the wise".
"Q2: Does anyone find any REASON why the switch - what's he trying to say with the switch, what new meaning does it provide?"
Eagle-Air; it's always seemed logical to me. Man-Water; no more illogical than Man-Air (though Aquarius is the only solo male human figure in the Zodiac).
"Q3: Does anyone follow the new attributions or have we all ignored them?"
Well, as I've hinted, I was always inclined to consider the Eagle as Air, when I thought about Kerubim at all, which, to be honest, is not often
"Q4: Is there another reason why the Kerub around the Hierophant and Universe Cards are switched?"
Sorry; switched with respect to what? They look the same on the two cards in my version: eagle top left; man top right; bull bottom left; lion bottom right.
OP
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@Oliver P said
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"Q4: Is there another reason why the Kerub around the Hierophant and Universe Cards are switched?"
Sorry; switched with respect to what? They look the same on the two cards in my version: eagle top left; man top right; bull bottom left; lion bottom right.
"OP check out these 2 versions of the Universe card:
Golden Dawn: www.yhwh.com/images/Tarot21.jpg
Thoth: www.tarotcardlady.com/images%5Cuniverse.jpgIn the upper left and right of the card, the position of the Eagle and Man have been switched. I'm under the impression that this is because of the 23rd AEthry revelation in following way:
The Kerub are to be positioned with the:
upper left position for => kerub of air
lower right position for => kerub of fire
lower left position for => kerub of earth
upper right position for => kerub of waterSince AC switched the Kerub of Air to be the Eagle now, it has to go in the upper right position which is the position for the Kerub of Air. That's why unlike the Waite card, the Eagle on AC's cards is in the upper left, and not in the upper right... at least that is my understanding for this flip-flop of those 2 kerubs.
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Crowley was inconsistent in correcting a long-term GD and pre-GD error in the pattern.
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Do you believe that this was an error soley because of his receiving the new attributions or are there are other reasons that I'm now aware for why the switch should take place?
It's like the Tzaddi switch. He received information that it was not correct - made the correction and then explained it in terms of a few different things that made sense to him. I'm wondering if there are similar examples of things that made sense to him more, or reasons other than he was told to do it...
Is the application of the Woman to Water, as he represents the Lion (himself) to Fire, what is motivating this swap?
Thanks for the help.
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Of note might be the fact that in "The World" card the Man and the Eagle are looking towards one another. The two on the bottom, gaze out from the card.
Also.. Man as 'water,' dissolving himself to become the Eagle, 'air' both fire and water. Just a musing.
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@Scarecrow said
"Do you believe that this was an error soley because of his receiving the new attributions or are there are other reasons that I'm now aware for why the switch should take place?"
No... long story. Basically a tracing of the four kerubic figures to their oldest representations on Babylonian boundary stones, and in the context of early Egypto-Babylonian astronomy, shows that they were misunderstood entirely through the Medieval times and on up through the 19th and early 20th centuries.
I don't think it's a switch at all. I think people had it fucked up for 1,500 years or more. The real error is in mistaking the eagle as having anything to do with Scorpio, when the only eagle in the sky is Aquila - in equatorial juxtaposition to Aquarius. Similarly, the "man" figure isn't Aquarius but, rather, Ophiuchus - shown in Babylonian boundary stones as half human, half scorpion - and existing in the sky juxtaposed to Scorpio.
There are other details, but that's the biggest part of it. Crowley never had the astro-archaeological data, but was beginning over time to encounter the actual symbolic and archetypal patterns in his visions, and began to see the logic in them.
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Interesting Jim - thanks.
Scorpion man:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scorpion_man
www.arthistory.upenn.edu/spr03/422/January-March/20.JPGI found this bit very intriguing in the context being discussed:
" In the Epic of Gilgamesh, they stand guard outside the gates of the sun god Shamash at the mountains of Mashu. These give entrance to Kurnugi, the land of darkness. The scorpion men open the doors for Shamash as he travels out each day, and close the doors after him when he returns to the underworld at night. They also warn travellers of the danger that lies beyond their post. Their heads touch the sky, their "terror is awesome" and their "glance is death"."
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There is, in the Cipher Manuscript (the foundational document of the G.'.D.'.), a list of attributions that could have spawned the confusion.
hermetic.com/gdlibrary/cipher/cipher9.htm
The CM shows Aquarius being water, and Scorpio being air.
However, most would say according to astrology that Aquarius = Fixed Air, and Scorpio = Fixed Water. -
@Qoheleth said
"The CM shows Aquarius being water, and Scorpio being air.
However, most would say according to astrology that Aquarius = Fixed Air, and Scorpio = Fixed Water."Most would say this according to relatively recent astrology - the last 500-600 years or so.
See the discussion above. The Elements, as known in modern times, were a Medieval or possibly Renaissance invention solely for the Tropical zodic. The Triplicities were discussed in earlier times, but not in relation to elements; similarly, elements were discussed in ancient times, but not in a geometrically balanced pattern.
The Kerubic figures are Babalonian in origin. The elemental attributions of the era seem to have been inherited from the Egyptians. Here's where part of the mix-up occurs. To the Egyptians, Aquarius was decisively a water sign - in mark the flood of the Nile and meant "bringer of the waters." Scorpio was an air-sign because the annual 40-day blistering winds that drove scorpions, snakes, and other critters in from the desert were during the month of the Full Moon in Scorpio - and the patron goddess of Scorpio had a name meaning "she who relieves the windpipe." (Probably a prurient pun in there also.) The Man was the Scorpio-Man which was anciently Air - and the Eagle was Aquila, adjacent to Aquarius, which was anciently Water.
There are still important magical and alchemical contexts in which the Leo-Aquarius axis is importantly a Fire-Water axis, alchemical "lion & eagle," etc.
But as the elemental patterns stabilized, some ideas shifted. Aquarius was regarded as an Air sign, and the eagle belonged to Aquarius. The Man belonged to Scorpio, which came to be regarded as a Water sign.
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Fascinating. I always wondered about the elemental ambiguities... like Capricorn, with the ancient symbol of the sea-goat.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Qoheleth said
"The CM shows Aquarius being water, and Scorpio being air.
However, most would say according to astrology that Aquarius = Fixed Air, and Scorpio = Fixed Water."Most would say this according to relatively recent astrology - the last 500-600 years or so.
See the discussion above. The Elements, as known in modern times, were a Medieval or possibly Renaissance invention solely for the Tropical zodic. The Triplicities were discussed in earlier times, but not in relation to elements; similarly, elements were discussed in ancient times, but not in a geometrically balanced pattern.
The Kerubic figures are Babalonian in origin. The elemental attributions of the era seem to have been inherited from the Egyptians. Here's where part of the mix-up occurs. To the Egyptians, Aquarius was decisively a water sign - in mark the flood of the Nile and meant "bringer of the waters." Scorpio was an air-sign because the annual 40-day blistering winds that drove scorpions, snakes, and other critters in from the desert were during the month of the Full Moon in Scorpio - and the patron goddess of Scorpio had a name meaning "she who relieves the windpipe." (Probably a prurient pun in there also.) The Man was the Scorpio-Man which was anciently Air - and the Eagle was Aquila, adjacent to Aquarius, which was anciently Water.
There are still important magical and alchemical contexts in which the Leo-Aquarius axis is importantly a Fire-Water axis, alchemical "lion & eagle," etc.
But as the elemental patterns stabilized, some ideas shifted. Aquarius was regarded as an Air sign, and the eagle belonged to Aquarius. The Man belonged to Scorpio, which came to be regarded as a Water sign."
Cool. Thank you for shedding a little more light on the confusion.
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@AvshalomBinyamin said
"Fascinating. I always wondered about the elemental ambiguities... like Capricorn, with the ancient symbol of the sea-goat."
To ancient astrologers, the first half of Capricorn was considered earthy, and the last half watery.
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That's an after-the-fact Greek explanation. The actual origin is this: Egyptian astrology was all lunar, adn the sign origins came from recurring phenomena normal to the month when a given constellation rise in the east at sunset (being the first stars visible in the sky each night) or, alternately (i.e. same thing) the constellation of the Full Moon.
During the Aries Age, the Moon was full in Capricorn during the month of the summer solstice; so they primarily picked a creature known for climbing the highest, just as the Sun did. But the tail-end of that month was the start of the annual Nile flood, so they gave him a fish tail.
Then came the month of the full flood - the month when the Moon was full in Aquarius, "bringer of the waters." The next month, the Nile flood was still pretty high and the land was swarming with water and fishes, so they named the stars of that month's Full Moon after the fishes. By the next month, the water had receded enough that they could start the annual separation of the rams from the ewes, so they named that constellation after the sheep. A month later the ground had dried out enough to plow, so they hooked up the oxen and named the constellation of the Full Moon after the bull - and so on, around the circle. (Egypt was the only country anywhere nearby that plowed and planted in November!)
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@Alrah said
"*Is this tripartate nature of Scorpio due only to AC, or was it around before he commented on it? *
The tripartate nature of Scorpio (as described to me by a native) was as Scorpian, Eagle and Dove when I first heard it. There was a complicated story attached as to how the Scorpian transforms into the Eagle and then the Dove. It was all to do with the spiritual evolution of the sexual nature. I'll see if I can recall it today for you..."
Geburah has three aspects - Din, Geburah, and Pachad - but if there was anything like this before AC then it would have been in some Theosophical document not known to me. It has never been part of the astrological teachings per se.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Alrah said
"*Is this tripartate nature of Scorpio due only to AC, or was it around before he commented on it? *The tripartate nature of Scorpio (as described to me by a native) was as Scorpian, Eagle and Dove when I first heard it. There was a complicated story attached as to how the Scorpian transforms into the Eagle and then the Dove. It was all to do with the spiritual evolution of the sexual nature. I'll see if I can recall it today for you..."
Geburah has three aspects - Din, Geburah, and Pachad - but if there was anything like this before AC then it would have been in some Theosophical document not known to me. It has never been part of the astrological teachings per se."
For what it's worth, the scorpion, snake, eagle triad is mentioned by Paul Foster Case in his "Tarot Fundamentals" material on Atu XIII. BOTA, I'm sure, wouldn't like to think he got anything from AC
But maybe Crowely influenced Case more than he admits. As I pointed out above (a good while ago!) the Scorpio-Eagle parallel was entrenched in GD symbology.
I'm never sure who got what from whom in occult circles. Though they would disavow any direct debt to Crowley, BOTAns (or my local ones anyway) have a good deal of time for Dion Fortune, who in turn acknowledges her debt to AC.
Maybe it would be worth trying to find a scorpion, snake, eagle reference in Fortune.
OP
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@Jim Eshelman said
"I don't think it's a switch at all. I think people had it {******} up for 1,500 years or more. The real error is in mistaking the eagle as having anything to do with Scorpio, when the only eagle in the sky is Aquila - in equatorial juxtaposition to Aquarius. Similarly, the "man" figure isn't Aquarius but, rather, Ophiuchus - shown in Babylonian boundary stones as half human, half scorpion - and existing in the sky juxtaposed to Scorpio."
93
What book(s) should one read to learn about the "original" zodiac before later interpretations caused misunderstandings like the Scorpio/Eagle confusion?
93,93/93
Thanks.
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@Iapetos said
"What book(s) should one read to learn about the "original" zodiac before later interpretations caused misunderstandings like the Scorpio/Eagle confusion?"
Cyril Fagan, Astrological Origins. Rupert Gleadow, The Origin of the Zodiac. Those will give you a serious start on an amazing journey!
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Scorpion/Serpent/Eagle is linked, surely, to Platonic and Neo-Platonic archetypes about the levels of the human being. I've been building what was originally a nice-looking table - but this forum software doesn't seem to be very table-friendly (or even tab-friendly)
Mind - Heart - Loins
Eagle - Serpent/Lion - Scorpion
Salt - Mercury - Sulphur
Hermit - Lover - Man of Earth
The - le - ma
Circle - Triangle - SquareThe Lion seems to belong in the middle layer because of the Platonic "noble emotions" (courage, etc) and its Thelemic pairing with the Serpent [??]
It's tempting to try putting Nuit, Hadit Ra-Hoor-Khuit in there, but I'm not sure which belongs in which row of the table.
Also (motivated by the outcome of certain BOTA-related meditations) I've been wondering about the possible esoteric symbolism of the Wizard of Oz's Scarecrow/Tin Man/Lion (brain/heart/'nerve')
OP
Yes, I am following the BOTA courses at the moment - one reason why I haven't been here for such a long time; didn't want to muddle the philosophies; but my email let me know this old thread had been revivified.