Dzogchen

Modest

From the Rigpa point of view It's nondual - you can't have Hadit without Nuit and there is no such thing as illusion but Buddhists call it emptyness.
So you can't remove the space between quantum particles because it's a part of their existance.
Gurugeorge, I think I found the extremes - Dispersion, Samsara on the one hand and Concentration, Samadhi on the other, their essence being Emptyness, Nirvana.

Modest

On a sidenote, I've found an article by Namkhai Norbu which claims that the aim is Buddha nature by all Buddhist sects and there's only the difference in method i.e. Sutra, Tantra, Dzogchen.

gurugeorge

Yes, the aim is the same, from the Dzogchen point of view. However, from some of the other school's points of view, they say, "No you're *not *talking about the same thing as us". There's a fair degree of sectarianism in Tibetan Buddhism (albeit kept mostly within civil bounds).

Mainly there's a big distinction between the schools that say that Buddha Nature is something attained - *created *- as a result of causal work and the schools that say, no, it's something we already are, it's just that we are under the illusion we are something else.

I think it's that the latter is true, but in practice it looks like the former. It looks like the practitioner is doing a bunch of stuff and, over time, to the external observer, the practitioner changes. But the truth is the new habits spring forth naturally from the work of clearing out obscurations, smoothing out the tangles in the folds of the Khu, so the light of the Khabs shines through to illuminate the world around it.

There *is *work done, but it's not causal work that creates something new in the way a carpenter might (linear causality); it's more like gardening, where the conditions are worked on (daily watering, for example), and something naturally occurs (non-linear causality?).

Modest

In Sutra where vows are given a Buddha is created. In Dzogchen where your practice unfolds Buddha - there is no law but do what thou wilt. For me my practice unfolded no smoking, no alcohol, vegetarian etc. and it was easy to do my will.
In the end, the result of created or unfolded should be Buddha nature.

Shunyata

@gurugeorge said

"
@Alrah said
"
At the end perhaps any such distinction between do what you want and do what thou wilt is meaningless? Just a thought. "

Hehe, yes Alrah. In fact, it's funny how people speculate and ponder what's meant by "will" - what they *should *be speculating and pondering about is what's meant by "thou" "

Shunyata

@Modes said

"Maybe someone has a clue what is so deeper in Dzogchen than in Zen?"

The student asked the master “When there is no clutching or clinging, what of it?”

The master said “Surely the way is thus”

The student asked “And isn’t that the truth of our original nature?”

“Clutching, clinging” Was the reply.

Uni_Verse

@Alrah said

"
Tarot cards are cardboard rectangles with pictures on them! Very Happy
"

They are not rectangles, they are cuboids
(So, if you were really small, you could live inside them )

Frater_64

Dzogchen ( Tibetan, translated from the Sanskrit Mahasandhi) has at least 2 meanings:

The primordial state of every sentient being.
Teaching. Dzogchen is a teaching that gives paths to discover the primordial state and develop it to achieve realization ( enlightenment). In Tibet Dzogchen is considered an advanced and secret teaching on nonduality, i.e. it is thought to be the absolute/ultimate teaching of pure and total awareness (see also Maha Ati Tantra )

There are two different main lineages of Dzogchen:

Buddhist: first taught by Guru Garab Dorje
Bön (Bon)

According to the first historical teacher of Nyingma Dzogchen lineage, Garab Dorje , Dzogchen has three key points:

Direct introduction to one's own nature (Tib., ngo rang thog-tu sprod-pa)
Direct discovery of this unique state (Tib., thag gcig thog-tu bcad-pa)
Remain in this state until liberation (Tib., gdeng grol thog-tu bca'-pa)

In Tibetan Buddhism Dzogchen is practiced mainly by the Nyingma school, although all four main schools of Tibetan Buddhism practice it to some extent.

From: www.economicexpert.com/a/Dzogchen.html

The three key points can be compared to the A.'.A.'. system:

1=10 – 4=7
5=6
6=5 – 9=2

Modest

Dzogchen sounds like Osel from six yogas of Naropa. Of course, the method is what mathers so they could be different.

redd fezz

Good to see other people here interested in Dzogchen. I am writing here so that I can find this later and think about it more... The Art and Universe of trekcho and thodgal are interesting parallels, but the only thing I notice is that it is more confusing when symbolized. The experience afterward being "Tiphareth?" Well, I don't know about that, but I do know it feels great. Never met my HGA, only the inner guru (who did not speak to me or even remotely come close, as it would be thoroughly pointless).