Good or Evil
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"Can a person take the lives of others without the reflux of the Will of the Universe?"
Liber Oz rather clearly states that man has the right to kill those who thwart the rights listed there.
However, I notice it doesn't say anything one way or the other about the psychological and spiritual consequences. It merely lists it as a right.
Elsewhere, we are also told that we "have no right but to do [our] Will."
In one of Crowley's fiction works, there is (I'm gonna need some help with this one) a character who - at the end of Moonchild, perhaps? - who must go off to war. When another asks him about his level of inner conflict about it, he responds something like, "If my body needs to sneeze, should I not sneeze?" (confirmation/correction appreciated)
I think Liber Oz was written to ensure that there would be no question about whether or not a person has the right to emancipate themselves. But I think there is also much more to learn than the rights of Liber Oz.
Theres' not a simple answer for me. Thoughts?
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@Iaomai said
"Liber Oz rather clearly states that man has the right to kill those who thwart the rights listed there."
Yes, and Liber OZ is just an opinion piece. It's a Class E document. It warrants all the respect of an opinion piece from Crowley - no more and no less.
It was a clever writing exercise for him - an effort to state a political philosophy in English words of one syllable. (The quotes from Liber L. don't count in this regard - Liber OZ itself has only one-syllable words.) One huge flaw is that this leaves it sexist and divisive, employing unisexual language that is unacceptable today. (And there is no way to fix that except by breaking the original monosyllabic basis of the document.)
All that aside, however, Liber OZ presents a certain ethical problem to be solved. I don't think the ethical problem is in the document so much as in ourselves. That is, I've found most people reflexively relate to it as rights they can claim for themselves. However, claiming such rights only works in a context where everyone has those rights. After a period of thinking this through, I found that the only psychologically safe way to approach it is to see Liber OZ as a catalogue of all the rights we are each willing to give everybody else - without ever worrying about whether we have them ourselves. (The consequence is, of course, a context in which we all have the same rights.)
Sorry... that's possible a bit of a digression from the main topic, and I don't mean to derail... but thought it worth remarking.
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Good or Evil, as applied to anyone (other than yourself), will always be a social construct. Any "objective morality" is a precursor to a mental slavery.
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@kuniggety said
"We will have to agree to disagree. Even despite the fact that I was an abused child, I still feel that when we incarnate, we have some choice in it. There is something to be learned and something gained, something to help guide us on our way, in the many paths out there - no matter how ugly/horrific it may appear."
It is my understanding (although I cannot remember if it is one source or a mixture of sources) that have the choice to be born into this life or this path as some may call it. Before we are born we are show what our whole life will be like and some possible points of changing paths and what may happen if we change paths. This is why some people may think that they have lived this same life. No matter which choice you take you already have seen the outcome of that choice.
In essence there may be only will. True will as I understand it is will that is universal will and for the good of mankind. Then there is personal will where you may not do much good or bad. Then there is what I call anti true will which goes against human existence. End the end there still is will which can be shaped in so many ways that I cannot name them.
I am sure that someone understands this better or may have an explanation that may not agree but still may be better.
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become alot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones -
@Vlad said
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become a lot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones"I agree with Vlad. If you can prove that the true will of Hitler helped improve the world then he would have been doing true will which is true to that what is considered good for the earth. Hitler was only allowed to do what he did because there were other people that had something to gain from his idea. Like me getting friends to help rob a bank (not that I would). We all would have something to gain from it. This thing that they were going to gain was worldly. The true will does not seek that which is worldly but that which is spiritual.
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@Vlad said
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become alot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones"This is a grossly un-Thelemic point of view (even more so because this is one kind of violation that rarely makes the victim stronger).
Start with the idea of respecting others' wills foremost, and you'll start understanding Thelema a great deal more.
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No it wasn't my point. I just exemplified Qemuel's logic. My first friend ever (cousin) has been sexually abused from the day she could walk to her youth as much as you and I breathe.
As for me, I block everything. Let's just say I feel no pain and will never, I think.
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"Destroy the traitors."
This is the basis of evil in Thelema. To know evil one must have been surrounded by evil, and returned uncorrupted. No simple task. And certain of those here speak as though ones instucted in the nature of horror.
There are two Trees of Life--each stage has its every evil. And remember that the strong are few.
The Princes are to be approached with respect--but never nonchalance! I'm chuckling. Like so many officers ready to die at the front, and prove their courage--you yearlings want to dive right in. Sex Magick, the Qlippoth, Curses and "Evil Magick." Respect that which seeks to destroy thee, and attend to thy work with diligence.
I don't mean to sound like a wizened grouch--but trust me! There is a reason for the preparations and prerogatives. How is one unskilled in Asana or Yoga to confront the Keeper of the Gate?
Just be careful.
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@Vlad said
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become alot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones"depends, what if she ends up leading a nation? or end up learning martial arts and saving someone elses life.
what about the rapist....what if after that rape he goes home and feels guilty...ends up changing his life around completely and vows to do good instead of evil.
u never realize what will end up doing good
even YOUR hardships in life mold YOU into who you will in the end.
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I think this is why I started studying magik. The reasoning was that if magiK is evil then I must study it and understand it in order to fight against it. I got this understanding from a few military philosophies about studying the enemy. That was about 20 years ago. The funny thing was I believed in magik, so in essence I was trying to find out why it was so bad. Now several years later I understand that magik is the essence of religion. So if magik is evil then religion is the bastard of that evil and wants to destroy its parents.
Magik teaches self control and power in the self.
Religion teaches control through others authority and removes the control of self and replaces it with control of others and power of others.
Hopefully my understanding is close to what the true understanding is.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Vlad said
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@Qemuel said
"thiz subject brang up about hitler earlier. 2 be bunt, if he did not exist and confirm to who he was suppose to be, the earth as we know it, would not be the same today. so was he in his True Will? i believe so."
So if you rape someone, she may (and in the end will) become alot stronger because of that. So, go and rape people! This is the logic of the dark ones"This is a grossly un-Thelemic point of view (even more so because this is one kind of violation that rarely makes the victim stronger).
Start with the idea of respecting others' wills foremost, and you'll start understanding Thelema a great deal more."
respecting others wills? what if there will goes against the True Will?
a saint or a sinner?
What if my destiny iz 2 burn this earth, turn it into ashes. 2 the point where very few humanz survive? but they go onto building a great wonderfull future, filled with peace, a "new heaven" on earth if u will. a culture where they substain from violence. would i be evil? or good?
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@fnewburn4236 said
"I think this is why I started studying magik. The reasoning was that if magiK is evil then I must study it and understand it in order to fight against it. I got this understanding from a few military philosophies about studying the enemy. That was about 20 years ago. The funny thing was I believed in magik, so in essence I was trying to find out why it was so bad. Now several years later I understand that magik is the essence of religion. So if magik is evil then religion is the bastard of that evil and wants to destroy its parents.
Magik teaches self control and power in the self.
Religion teaches control through others authority and removes the control of self and replaces it with control of others and power of others.
Hopefully my understanding is close to what the true understanding is.
"Religion itself, iz man made. Religion iz trying to understand thingz that humanz were never suppose to understand. Religion iz bondage, where u bind urself 2 teaches of man, where u do not gain knowledge for u r confined with what they taught.
Spirituality iz freedom, but can become dangerous. 4 urself, and 4 otherz.
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@Qemuel said
" respecting others wills? what if there will goes against the True Will?
a saint or a sinner?
What if my destiny iz 2 burn this earth, turn it into ashes. 2 the point where very few humanz survive? but they go onto building a great wonderfull future, filled with peace, a "new heaven" on earth if u will. a culture where they substain from violence. would i be evil? or good?"
What if it is somebody’s destiny to blow the whole world to smithereens? Then the whole world would have to reform and build an atmosphere and restart evolution again?
Or the earth becomes so barren (if there is an earth) that it could never support life.
Whose will got served in either case?
I think that if you study history, man is going to repeat a lot of stuff until he pulls himself out of being an animal. Once he has done that then he is spiritual. If man can attain the spiritual state while in the flesh, then he will be even closer to being immortal, if this act has not made him immortal already.
The only problem is all of mankind must make this change. If there is one that has not made the change then he may undo that which has been done. Another problem is the sole person that did not change must do it on his on free will, otherwise it does not serve the better good to force him to accept.
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@fnewburn4236 said
"What if it is somebody’s destiny to blow the whole world to smithereens? Then the whole world would have to reform and build an atmosphere and restart evolution again?
Or the earth becomes so barren (if there is an earth) that it could never support life.
Whose will got served in either case?
I think that if you study history, man is going to repeat a lot of stuff until he pulls himself out of being an animal. Once he has done that then he is spiritual. If man can attain the spiritual state while in the flesh, then he will be even closer to being immortal, if this act has not made him immortal already.
The only problem is all of mankind must make this change. If there is one that has not made the change then he may undo that which has been done. Another problem is the sole person that did not change must do it on his on free will, otherwise it does not serve the better good to force him to accept.
"why would destiny(True Will) allow the whole world to be blown to smithereens? to the extent that even the atmosphere would not survive. would that not go against all that The Spirit has achieved?
i do not think u understand what destiny is, and it sounds more like your babbling.
you can NOT be in the flesh and be in the spirit at the same time. flesh is carnal. and if sum1's goal iz to become spiritual to gain immoratlity....than he haz already failed.
mankind doez not move unless they r forced to move...stubborn people. for mankind to change, something has to occur for manknid to want to change.
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@Qemuel said
" why would destiny(True Will) allow the whole world to be blown to smithereens? to the extent that even the atmosphere would not survive. Would that not go against all that The Spirit has achieved? "
I think you understood my point.
@Qemuel said
" I do not think u understand what destiny is, and it sounds more like your babbling. "
You attack me by saying that I am babbling when you did not even take a second to determine or even think about the wisdom of this.
@Qemuel said
" You can NOT be in the flesh and be in the spirit at the same time. "
Then what are you know?
Is it easier to say that now you are in a lower vibration and when immortal in a higher vibration?
@Qemuel said
" flesh is carnal. and if sum1's goal iz to become spiritual to gain immoratlity....than he haz already failed. "
The goal is spirituality… the result is immortality, some may call it other things or some may say that you return to that which is, although I dont think we learned all this just to be one thing in the end.
@Qemuel said
" Mankind doez not move unless they r forced to move...stubborn people. for mankind to change, something has to occur for manknid to want to change. "
I agree with this. Something has to accur to each indivitual for him to what to change.
@Qemuel said
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@fnewburn4236 said
"I do believe that we may both need to meditate on this.Sometimes understanding can not be explained with logic.
"do not speak for me
i believe u do need to meditate on this"
You again attack without thinking about it. I offered you a piece offering and you decided to war with me when we seem to agree. I seem to find no logic in this and will not reply to any more attacks from you.