Oppening by Watchtower / Goetic Magick.
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Thank you for taking the time to answer my post. What I am specifically talking of is Regardie's and Monastrie's advisal in the intros to Regardie's G.D. that the student is well advised to leave these two systems alone (not necisarrily Goetic) but Opening by Watchtower for sure, until one for himself knows and feels himself to be well w/in the confines of the inner order. I do know that Enochian and Goetic and Opening by Watchtower can either co-exist or stand alone autonomous by themselves; however, if I was to use Goetic wouldn't I well be advised to be well prepared w/Enochian also? Or am I stating this right?
I have done a good bit of study here but have yet to actually, as Duquette said, use them; until he did. As I said, I am fairly well versed but actually practicing these three I have held off until now and know by my seasoned experience w/personal work that just because I am well versed doesn't mean that I totally understand it and /or wield it until experienced. I hope this is enough to substantiate my question or proposal?L.V.X.x Love x Will = Magnitude.
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@AbUldIZ418 said
"What I am specifically talking of is Regardie's and Monastrie's advisal in the intros to Regardie's G.D. that the student is well advised to leave these two systems alone (not necisarrily Goetic) but Opening by Watchtower for sure, until one for himself knows and feels himself to be well w/in the confines of the inner order."
I must have missed that part of the introduction. It's quite at odds with both my own instincts and what I recall from conversations with Regardie. In fact, he wrote an entire book on building up the Watchtower ceremony in layers, and published it as a general curriculum for any serious student. He either put in print, or said in conversation (I think it might have been both), that he thought this might be a way for people to acquire some of the key magical consequences of the First Order in solitary working.
In any case, it's based on the opening formula for the G.D. Portal ritual, which is outside (or, at best, on the edge of) the Inner Order - certainly not "well within" it.
"however, if I was to use Goetic wouldn't I well be advised to be well prepared w/Enochian also?"
They are unrelated. The Goetic catalogue of spirits has nothing whatsoever to do with the Enochian angels and spirits.
BTW (returning to your original question), I discourage goetia per se because it's a scummy, abusive system filled with spirits that have been maligned and mistreated for centuries, and can generally be expected to act out like violently abused children the first chance they get. (In this, I distinguish it from evocation in general. I am responding to your specific mention of goetia.) If this weren't a consideration, I would still recommend that someone not try evocation until they had acquired significant control of their mind and considerable experience with watching their thoughts in various ways.
The A.'.A.'. doesn't require examination in evocation until 4=7 (a grade roughly equivalent in development to the G.D. 7=4, but with a great deal more yoga under one's belt), although exposure to it occurs as part of the Neophyte formula in 1=10 (just as one is learning to function effectively on the astral).
But the watchtower ceremony? Especially if one isn't including the Enochian tablets, it seems a no-brainer - that it's a good, serious ritual for any serious and committed aspirant. (I'm not saying one shouldn't incorporate the Enochian tablets - I'm saying it's a no-brainer if one doesn't. If one does, then there are just a few more things to think and talk about in preparation.)
In case they're of interest, have you read my remarks on evocation in Sample Ritual No. 8 in 776 1/2?
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Thanks again for answering me. I am learning a lot from you and you'r site. As I said I have specifically left these systems alone because I didn't feel ready for them. I have studied them; however, I would wish that you would find that reference to Monatrie's and Regardie's in the G.D. I could give you the ref. pg. #; however, have let a dear friend of mine borrow (can't believe I did!!!) my copy which means I need to have two. Anyway, another admitance is that I have really only concentrated my studies on Crowley, Regardie, the Ciceros, Duquette,Levi, and a handfull of other authors and as I said, hate to admit this in this forum but am just becoming aware of other authors of validity as you'r self.
I have really just begun to use the net to study other than reference as I felt it uneasy and wouldn't behoove my Magick 2 do so. I am definitely finding this not so. Old superstitions die hard!!! I have just moved as I said in another forum from San Francisco to my present locale (and would be glad to move back) in an extended stint striving for initiation into O.T.O., A.'.A.'. and Thelema but was unsucessful because of not doing enough homework as to put me into contact. I have been a lone student since my teens and other than Jungian analysis have stayed that way until I felt a few years back in definite need and desire for a temple/actual working group.This is hard for me to be this candid w/in a forum sitting but am truly seeking enlightenment and hope this isn't to off topic for me to bring up. Anyway I will get to the reference you advised ASAP. Thanks for the advice.L.V.X. x Love x Will = Magnitude.
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@AbUldIZ418 said
"I would wish that you would find that reference to Monatrie's and Regardie's in the G.D. I could give you the ref. pg. #; however, have let a dear friend of mine borrow (can't believe I did!!!) my copy which means I need to have two."
Yes, since it's your question, I think you should give me the book title, edition, page number, and location on the page. (Alternately, you're welcome to wait until I look it up, but since Regardie wrote a really long Introduction that I have no need to reread, I'll probably get around to looking it up approximately half past never.)
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Thanks Jim. As soon as I can get my edition back (which will be quickly now) I will do so. I am understanding much more at this stage of my Magick than I have b/4.
And am starting to realise how I have somehow mixed the two grade systems of Thelema vs. G.D. up also. Which shoulda been quite obvious 2 me. I have striven to understand Crowley the best I could and have understood him only partially. I suppose that my conscious has picked up more from Regardie and his presentation of G.D. than I have Crowley and Thelema, I have to admit. Please forgive me if I seemed presumptuous. 
L.V.X. x Love x Will = Magnitude.
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"Yes, since it's your question, I think you should give me the book title, edition, page number, and location on the page."
Thought I lend a hand here since I have the book in PDF version. It is "The Golden Dawn", Israel Regardie, Sixth Edition. The reference I believe is in the "Introduction to the Fifth edition" on page xviii towards the bottom of the page, written by Chris Monnastre in 1986. From what I can tell the warning is on the use of the Energy concentrated in Magick specifically with the Formula of L.V.X. I am not Initiated in these matters and am studying myself so don't take my word for it! Here is an excerpt (since the person posting the question doesn't currently have their copy) - if this is a violation please expunge my post and let me know - I won't do it again if so.
"L.V.X. is generated in a number of ways and these are through ceremonial magic, the Middle Pillar technique, the Vibratory Formula of the Middle Pillar, and the Opening by Watchtower. Although Regardie published a progressive ritual use of the Opening by Watchtower in Ceremonial Magic, I would advise the beginning student to leave this particular ceremony strictly alone until he or she felt well within the initiatory containment and safety of the Second Order either through personal work or within an initiatory group. (Later in this introduction I will offer suggestions for the individual to plan a safe and successful approach to this Work overall.) This Light knows no moral or conscionable dictate. (Fire can burn your hand as surely as cook your favorite recipe!) But this is the "holy and formless fire" which either manifests in our external environment through the screen of our disciplined and CONSCIOUS image making (Crowley gave great emphasis to developing the concentrated image making aspect of consciousness) as well as through the automatic UNCONSCIOUS complexes of our personalities. And hence Regardie insisted upon some form of psychotherapeutic work once the unconscious had been activated by the ritual work since it was unlikely that the Neophyte had yet even knowledge of the possibility of control of image building with consciousness and what effect this could have on the personal life, let alone the discipline to implement it. The Neophyte was equally unlikely to be aware of the "sleeping dogs" (to use a phrase of Blavatsky's) or unconscious complexes of the personality and how those unknown parts of ourselves influence our lives."
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I notice that this is the editor's opinion, not Regardie's as originally represented.
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Thank you for the ref. W/all respect I can; Regardie issues forth the same w/in I believe the third intro to the same edition. As Jim said and Monastre ( I know I continuue to mispell the name, and ask for leneiency for poor scholorship here?? ) Reagardie's intro.is long, and as Monastre says "Demands reading and re-reading again" and have found it w/in and of itself echoing things throughout my passage Psychologically, Thelemically, or G.D. He is another master of his own rite. Crowley is the Einstein though!!!
L.V.X. x Love x Will = Magnitude.
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@Alrah said
"
@Jim Eshelman said
"I notice that this is the editor's opinion, not Regardie's as originally represented."Are you referencing Chapter One from 'Ceremonial Magic'?
"I was referencing the quote, given above, from the G.D.
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I hesitate to generalize.
My earlier answer boils down to "full speed ahead on Watchtower Ritual" and "can't see any reason for Goetia in most cases." (Going to a dive bar in an economically suppressed area and licking the inner rim of the toilet bowl probably won't kill you, but I probably wouldn't be chastised for suggesting it is a bad idea. Goetia is pretty much the same.)
My only withholding of full endorsement for including the Enochian tablets in the Watchtower Ritual isn't a safety issue but, rather, more of the sense that unless one has established a relationship with them - either through formal initiation or other work - then there is the risk of them being hollow props, and becoming a bit degraded in one's own mind accordingly. This is a complicated issue, without exact boundaries, and with recommendations being highly individual, so I essentially skipped that other than with a quick remark.
(I should also add that, since I knew/know the individuals personally, and have called them both friends, I'm skipping any public characterizing of them.)
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Sorry, I tried to use quote to post this but it says I can only embed three. This is to Alrah's post above.
I really appreciate all that you guys are saying here. Basically, all I'm getting @ is that I am unseasoned w/the experience of my origional question. I do not fear. I do respect. Any magickian should have a sound reasoning. If you are referencing you'r own quote; yes, Regardie is saying this is simple to make "Signs". However, it isn' as simple to make "Symbols" and becomes a whole different ball of wax. Signs become symbols when they begin to mean something to anyone subjectively. Jung says the same. The question w/that would be is the student getting what is collectively intended by the sign? This is getting me far away from my origional question and personaly don't see how this has to do w/it? Could you elaborate a bit further so I get what you are driving at?L.V.X. x Love x Will = Magnitude.
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Thanks Jim. At least I have found the direction that I need to go with. And yes I am at a juncture to move on as Alrah was I think driving at. Honestly, I don't intend on Goetia anyway and have just thought about you'r origional question to me in that you asked me about Enochian Magick. Yes, this would be may main interest here but as you were saying about the tablets, I can see why you say that one could somewhat dismiss them if aproppriated for. However, they are quite beautiful after created but can definately be quite complicated until you get them going. Wish I woulda caught the jist of you'r origonal question to me.
L.V.X. x Love x Will = Magnitude.
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Speaking of beauty of the tablets, one thing I had thought about doing for a pre-publication offer of Visions & Voices was to include a small gift. (There was a debate on the book team about whether people just wanted a price break, or whether it would mean more to give them a gift that they would enjoy.) Since we had just redone the graphics on the Order's full-color Enochian elemental tablets, my thought was to print these (in vivid color) and laminate them, then include a set of the tablets with all pre-publication orders.
That idea fell aside, partly because it would have meant mobilizing additional people-power to manufacture the tablet sets, partly because the majority thought that a price break was what people would want most. (We actually combined the 'gift' idea with the price-break idea by first offering about 20% on the book pre-pub, but also offering enough of a price break on the deluxe edition 776 1/2 that it approximately boils down to get V&V for free.)
But I digress... the main point is, yeah, the tablets, when properly painted, are remarkable.
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I quite agree. As far as I can see so far there aren't any real serious threats w/Enochian especially compared w / Goetic. Ok, so why the encouragment from Monnastre to wait so long to deal w/generating L.V.X.? What gives?
P.S.
Her initial intro. in the G.D. totally changed my life w/a new paradigm that I will 4/ever be greatful for. She helped me understand my Magickal, Psychological,"Self" that no-one had ever done before. And Regardie just magnified that.L.V.X x Love x Will = Magnitude.
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