Questions on Asana, and other preliminaries
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just pointing out that the practice is a vital part of mystical training
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93,
Sorry I wasn't here sooner, but I've been busy.
First- I actually think the snapping motion is stupid for Jvgorvm. That is, I've always worked under the assumption if you are going to punish yourself it needs to cause trauma, or at the very least serve as a visual reminder. I didn't stab with the needles, I used them to separate flesh. It wasn't fun, or pretty, but it did work wonderfully. And no, I'm not stupid, I do know how to prevent infections
Vlad- I'm not. I'm literally fat. XD. Though, admittedly, it's really my cardiovascular system most upset by it.
I disagree whole heartedly, Alrah. That comparison would only make since if I decided to do Jvgorvm due to boredome. A better cat related analogy would be comparing to how cats claw up your furniture. Though, in this case it isn't a couch, but rather an arm.
Er, I think you missed the entire point of Jvgorvm, Alrah, if you assume an animal self is being neglected. To put it in a visual metaphor, I wouldn't let my dog do what I told it not to, and would likely enforce the behaviour as I see fit. From my three weeks, I would say integration between the multiple selves was increased, as all were becoming aware of each other.
Eh, you're forgetting that even in those systems you are suggesting follow the other method [The opposite of self control, or whatever you'd like to term it] that there is still a requirement to learn some type of discipline for use in the event where ecstatic events occur.
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@Alrah said
"Hey malnarcissist
I know I haven't phrased it clearly what I mean yet.
I think Jugorum reminds me of cats, which reminds me of what a domesicated animal man is, and about some of the collective problems we suffer as a speices that stem from our essentially domesticated habitat.
If we had more respect for our animals selves we wouldn't have as many problems and stress (that lead into negative behaviours), and there wouldn't be the need for a 'Respect for the Human Animal society '.
I believe that many of us are out of touch with our minds, our senses and our bodies, and our society just isn't geared towards the value of their harmony at the moment. But I hope that will change in the future and there will be less need for practises like Jugorum.
"If we all had a proper respect for everyone's individual right to decide which practice suits their success best, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
I don't understand, Alrah, why you are so against someone else practicing Jugorum.
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93,
Eh. I wouldn't attribute Jvgorvm to the way you are thinking about it. I mean, it is obviously a discipline excercise, but I fail to see how that, by it's nature estranges us from our more basic natures- after all, many animals have to learn the value of restraint, usually through painful means.
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@Alrah said
"I'm not against the practice per se. I just see it the same way as a doctor does: with preventative medicine (in this case - plenty of fresh air, active and passive hunting behaviours, sex, and the conscious redution of stress factors in your life) being more preferable than putting up with the status quo and trying to correct the symptoms of the disease afterwards without getting at it's root cause.
But it is a more difficult practise of developing the Will. If you need to leave the rat race (for instance), then you'll find your mind producing a thousand and one reasons for why you can't do that."
93,
Perhaps we're just having a misunderstanding, but last I checked, those have nothing to do with Jvgorvm, or at least what I took out of it. What you seem to be comparing is how one takes care of a vehicle- keeping up on repairs, etc. A more apt comparison is social integration- several disparate elements that aren't really all that aware of each other [No, what you are describing isn't awareness per se, it's simply relaxation.], and forcing them to all work in unison. At least that's what I got out of it. Shrug To me, after a few days of each section it felt like every action I did was thought about, it was almost like a mild form of Mahasatipatthana.
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In case it's useful to this topic, the following is from Chapter 5 of The Mystical & Magical System of the A.'.A.'. under the Practicus task "Control of Speech."
The actual task is “control of speech.” One tool that is given for this purpose is Liber 3, which is Liber Jugorum (The Book of Yokes).
Liber Jugorum is one of the earliest A.'.A.'. instructions. It is an instruction in “behavior modification” or “operant conditioning,” written decades before those terms existed in their contemporary sense. Three of its sections are dedicated to exercises for establishing, first, control over one’s speech (for the Practicus), then control over one’s actions (for the Philosophus), and, finally, control over one’s thoughts (for the Dominus Liminis; originally for the Adeptus Minor).
Speech is metaphorically represented by the Unicorn; action by the Horse; and thought by the Ox. Liber Jugorum teaches methods to “yoke” these beasts and bring them under one’s own control.
The essential method is to set a discipline for oneself – for example, deciding that, for a particular period of time, one will not utter a certain common word such as “but” – then vigilantly witness one’s success. For each failure, a razor blade is used to cut one’s own arm. The cut must be in the immediate aftermath, so as to associate, unquestionably, the response with the slip. The arm then becomes, as well, a physical record of the success of the practice!
The same method is applied later for control of action and control of thought.
There are those who consider this to be a barbaric practice, however successful it might be! This criticism warrants a few remarks.
First, the underlying practice is control of speech. The Practicus is not limited to this particular way of gaining that control.
Second, there are other devices for sending a sharp pain signal and building a “vigilance reflex” (the building of which is an important part of the idea in this practice). A reasonably tight (but not constricting) rubber band worn around the wrist allows for a good sharp snap that gets the point across, and still lets one function reasonably in the business world (unlike the razor blade method!).
Third, if a blade is used, keep it antiseptic. Perseverance in this practice does not warrant unhealthful actions. (An otherwise virgin blade can be carried in a little box, folded into a sponge saturated with alcohol, for example.)
Fourth, if you are avoiding the razor because of fear of pain, fear of blood, or an aversion to cutting yourself, then, at some point, you likely will have to confront that fear and conquer it. On the other hand, if you are using the razor method because you enjoy it, or if you have any prior pattern of self-inflicted injury, you are advised to cease this practice at once and consider seeking good professional psychological help.
Fifth – which is especially important if you are really bad in your control of speech – don’t be stupid. Never carry the practice, in any form, to the place where it threatens physical damage, scar tissue, serious blood loss, or anything of the kind. Do not use the blade method if you are a diabetic or hemophiliac. [FN The practice of monitoring one’s speech always can be undertaken by itself, without the “punishment” signal, just to develop, by simple vigilance and will, a fair level of skill in control before one undertakes the more extreme practice. Set yourself up for success!]
Sixth, behaviorism has learned, in more recent times, that rewarding a desired behavior is generally far more effective than punishing a bad one. Liber Jugorum’s methods may have been innovative for 1910 (when the paper was first published), but behavioral psychologists would consider them primitive barbarisms today. Keep attention on the underlying goal, and not so much on the method!
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93,
Thanks, Jim. I understand that the method of Jvgorvm is quite... Dated, however, in experience I learn more from punishment, than reward Shrug
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@Alrah said
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@malnarcissis said
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@Alrah said
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93,"
"93,
One of the reasons I mentioned hunting behaviours, is that to take yourself out into the wild to hunt demands the utmost alertness and integration of the mind, body and environment. Animals have that naturally. Overly domesticated humans loose it. To take your animal self in hand, then you first have to know it and give the beast it's due. Have you noticed that good hunters often display an impressive refinement of mind, body and speech?
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93,
Honestly, I would disagree greatly. Animals have no special faculty like that. If that were the case, you would not see them doing stupid things.
Also, being from Michigan, your statement about hunters are entirely false. Wile there are likely many hunters like that, for the most part, the people who get excited about it aren't particularly aware of anything beyond the price of beer. Though, I fail to see how hunting is relevant- in this day and age hunting is a game- it takes no real awareness. You get up in your tree stand, drink beer, and shoot at anything that isn't orange.
Also, you keep treating the animal self as if it is some kind of pre-disciplined animal. Even those animals you are discussing as being in harmony have to subdue their lessers, as well as fend off up-starts. While you may be willing to let your animal self do whatever it likes, I prefer to assume the mechanics are similar to every other viewable interaction in nature.
Edit: I figure I should note, that as aggressive as I'm mkaing this sound, it is just to emphasize what I am trying to say- in the same instances you wouldn't attack a loyal friend- but an animal is an animal and will try to raise it's self above the social hierarchy.
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Alrah, I say you are sorely mistaken about animals. To find out why I say this (in an effort to let the conversation get back to what it was originally about), leave this thread and meditate on why we get so concerned when cubs become orphans. Yes, the instinctively know how to smell - but they do not instinctively know what is food. Many things their mammas need to teach them.
ps. but if you are right, I think I'll try getting all that money from the wildlife people I sent them.
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93,
I think these two threads have become a back and forth
Is this okay? XD"I will wage any money upon a proper feral animal beating you at a task it is naturally habituated towards. A monkey at finding berries. A Lioness at stalking her pray. The mind and body of each animal is integrated towards survival. If they de-integrate then they don't survive in the natural world. That is the Law. Only man defies (for now) the natural Law. And he only has a limited window in which he can do so without incurring the destruction of his species. "
Yes, I would wager that, too. That being said, I would say I am much more adapted to the methods of Intellectual [I am using that word as some of the 17th and 18th century Neo-Platonists did] mastery.
Yes, and the mind and body of humans is integrated for survival. In the wild. The fact is, is that our unique adaptations have allowed us to transcend the rat race that is life. it gets closer and closer to the point where a human can simply devote all of their time to mastering some thing that isn't particularly useful, but rather more.... Enlightened [As in, less killing and eating, more thinking]
I wouldn't say man defies natural law. If I picked up anything from my old desire to do biology it's that statements like that ignore most of what society is. It isn't a rat race, rather [To me] it seems more anarchic than normal living. The rules of "Do it this way or you simply die," have been removed and replaced with "You better watch what you do, or you will die." My mode of thought is simply trying to say "That is dumb. We shouldn't even have to think about survival, as civilization is a mutual agreement to ensure that the members survive."
Also, your de-integration thing is silly. An apt comparison would to be to compare a domesticated animal to a feral human [That is, it takes a human out of the expected environment] What do we get [I am assuming a wolf at this point, by the way as it is like a dog]? The human in this state is smart, yes, but generally has no real mental trademarks of a human [Beyond the normally assumed ones- language is harder, social existence is harder, so forth]. The wolf, on the other hand will live generally the same, assuming it's life is not altered [Assume, large cage a small cage would produce a similar result to the feral human who is not in an enclosure]. I wouldn't say that is integration, rather a difference in the development. [Though, this example is flawed as there are a lot of varibles, but assumign all things to be equal]
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If undomesticated animals were not integrated in their body and mind and environment - they would not be Born. Hunt. Eat. And Live.
And Kill. And then Die. "It happens all the time in nature. Aren't you aware of Natural Selection? It's not that they aren't born, it's that they are not viable and then die.
"Oh... that type?
That's not a hunter. That's just a man with a gun.I'll ask my mate to ask the Princess to give you a pass to White River, Alaska if you like. They teach the traditional hunting skills down there and they meditate before they trek. "
No. You just redefined the term hunter to suit your position [Or at the very least did not denote what you meant by the term] But to add to that, that's just Alaska, a relatively unpopulated state. Anyone can choose a sufficiently small sample to confirm what they want- the vast majority of hunts are not like that, even in Alaska.
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The animal comes with an inherent set of insticts. It's been pre-disciplined by nature. Aye?"Sure. For what it wants. The issue is, is that what it wants is not necessarily what it should want. That isn't to say it should be sublimated, but at the end of the day it is a servant, if it acts up it needs to be shown why that is a bad idea. You may be willing to allow it to run with a longer leash, but my mind works on a very spring-like [As in the metal thing, not the season
] model."The males do to work out who is alpha. The female of the species usually does it somewhat differently. It's not that women are socialised to think of others before themselves... it's something inborn. The female alpha goes forth and gets the vote of the demos. The male alpha goes forth and becomes king by dominion. There are two hierarchies in nature. "
Bull shit. This entire idea stems from anthropomorphizing animals- it is just as silly as the idea of nature as harmonious. For specific examples, look to hamsters- the females are actually more likely to kill than the males. In wolf packs [Since we are using the term Alpha] your example crumbles- the alpha female is simply the mating partner of the alpha male. The female wolves do not sit down and have a cheery discussion on who gets to go for a ride during the year- rather the female alpha may get challenged, just like a male. Though, it should be noted alpha females are generally permanent [Generally], as breeding is always risky business for them.
"Some wolves hunt alone."
Yes. And when viewed against a normal wolf, it tends to lead to a very negative social quality- assuming the wolf even survives, as lone wolves are always at a disadvantage..
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93,
XD. I would like to clairify that I was quite interested in my first question, as to what it is. I am assuming it is just a reaction I've somehow cultivated to frustration [Though, I would like to know how I did that. XD], but I've never heard of people having that from deciding to sit still and focus on the body.
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@Alrah said
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@Takamba said
"Alrah, I say you are sorely mistaken about animals. To find out why I say this (in an effort to let the conversation get back to what it was originally about), leave this thread and meditate on why we get so concerned when cubs become orphans. Yes, the instinctively know how to smell - but they do not instinctively know what is food. Many things their mammas need to teach them."Lol. What I think is funny, Takamba, is that man, living so far away from his own natural animal thinks nothing of trying to become his true self, whilst all the while deriding his animal, his lust, his agression - and what for? Society?
Sure - each cub has instinct unstructed. As do most human animals. We are taught it's better to endure and be neurotic and conform rather than be an outcast of the mad collective we call society these days.
I think it's unhealthy. lol. And I don't give a damn if that's one solitary horn to the walls of Jericho."
93,
Not for society, himself. In your comparisons you have forgotten a few things about animals- they generally aren't all there, they never have the urge to go beyond what is relevant to their interests, nor do they have the urge to do anything just because they can. Sure, they can do things because it is fun, as chemicals are great [Yes, I am straddling a fine line here].
[Also, I do not understand the part about cubs, as it doesn't really have context with what the guy said.]
No, that isn't what humans are taught. XD, not to intrude, but are you over 30? If so, then you might be surprised that the current way to prove individuality is to be separate, or in some way detached from the social group [I call it marketing dissent]. Well, for my child hood, any way. This thinking sends the wrong message- being unique implies none of those things. I've always been Leary of that approach, as it ignores the exact parts of humanity that we should foster as we move forward.
Well, you needn't give a damn about anything. However, at times it's seemed like your vacillations have a bit too much emotion tied into them, and with certain people [I admit it] that type of approach looks sloppy and poorly constructed. Though, not to discount it, some of use enjoy the fruits of more humanly advanced outlooks
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@malnarcissis said
"93,
XD. I would like to clairify that I was quite interested in my first question, as to what it is. I am assuming it is just a reaction I've somehow cultivated to frustration [Though, I would like to know how I did that. XD], but I've never heard of people having that from deciding to sit still and focus on the body.
93 93/93"
I suspect part of the reason you have not found the answers you are looking for is that few people have what it takes to say "I don't know," so instead we've turned into a moral argument (spiritual pride I think it is akin to) as to whether you should even being doing this practice or that.
All that aside, I've never found any material or discussion about spontaneous arousal due to posture, but medically it would seem like something that happens and so there should be some one who knows (like maybe a real doctor if you think this question is worth the $60 co-pay)
Sitting in lotus I have made myself erect, made the muscle or skin or whatever exactly to massage itself, and ejaculate (all this while not using erotic thought). But that's not "spontaneous" as you describe. So, for the sake of whatever "program" you actually see yourself involved in, anything "not willed" is not the result you are looking for so I certainly urge you to make this question very important to you if you are still being interrupted by these things.
Of course, I may be misunderstanding. I'm assuming this arousal is involving erection of some level, increased blood flow, and sensitivity to stimulation. If it isn't that, if it is less than that - then just move on, it's the devil tempting you to give up your exercise. The purpose of the exercise being defeated if you let the animal win the argument. But if it is all that above, there could be medical reasons (not necessarily illness or anything serious, but we are talking about circulation) - so it could be worth investigating.
*stepping back out of the ring
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@Takamba said
"Sitting in lotus I have made myself erect, made the muscle or skin or whatever exactly to massage itself, and ejaculate (all this while not using erotic thought)."
And why did I do it, Alrah? "Because it was there."
I don't need to justify my practices to you.
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@Takamba said
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@malnarcissis said
"93,XD. I would like to clairify that I was quite interested in my first question, as to what it is. I am assuming it is just a reaction I've somehow cultivated to frustration [Though, I would like to know how I did that. XD], but I've never heard of people having that from deciding to sit still and focus on the body.
93 93/93"
I suspect part of the reason you have not found the answers you are looking for is that few people have what it takes to say "I don't know," so instead we've turned into a moral argument (spiritual pride I think it is akin to) as to whether you should even being doing this practice or that.
All that aside, I've never found any material or discussion about spontaneous arousal due to posture, but medically it would seem like something that happens and so there should be some one who knows (like maybe a real doctor if you think this question is worth the $60 co-pay)
Sitting in lotus I have made myself erect, made the muscle or skin or whatever exactly to massage itself, and ejaculate (all this while not using erotic thought). But that's not "spontaneous" as you describe. So, for the sake of whatever "program" you actually see yourself involved in, anything "not willed" is not the result you are looking for so I certainly urge you to make this question very important to you if you are still being interrupted by these things.
Of course, I may be misunderstanding. I'm assuming this arousal is involving erection of some level, increased blood flow, and sensitivity to stimulation. If it isn't that, if it is less than that - then just move on, it's the devil tempting you to give up your exercise. The purpose of the exercise being defeated if you let the animal win the argument. But if it is all that above, there could be medical reasons (not necessarily illness or anything serious, but we are talking about circulation) - so it could be worth investigating.
*stepping back out of the ring"
93,
XD. Thanks. I'm really trying to get the feel of it, as to what it is, and what should be done.
Eh, there generally isn't any physical sign of arousal, beyond a significant level of awareness regarding the area, but that can be blamed on the "Liquid," sensation.
XD. I don't think it's anything really doctor worthy, maybe psychologist worthy if it is just an arousal I am not recognizing [It could be. I've not tried to examine it too much, beyond trying to let it go, and when that happens, generally my bladder decides to get involved.] I would assume it would lead to a bunch of movement though, so after the first few times, I've just enjoyed the feelings. also, I have noticed that if I do a kegel during, the sensation gets better.
Prideful? Me? Never
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@Alrah said
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@Takamba said
"I don't need to justify my practices to you."Please post where the {****} I asked you to justify anything to me Takamba?"
that's one.
Can't you just accept what people say? and I was being preemptive (knowing what you do to the other people who post their questions).
You are asking everyone else to justify "another dragon" poser, or jugerum needles and so on.
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93,
Backs up a bit
I knew I was missing the tone other people were using
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I'm sorry Alrah, I didn't mean "take what they say" as law - I meant "take it as that's what they want to do." It's just that I see you poo-pooing the various practices.
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@Alrah said
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@malnarcissis said
"93,Backs up a bit
I knew I was missing the tone other people were using
93 93/93"
Stick around. I'm sure you'll get used to it. :/"
93,
XD, it's not that I'm not used to it, the opposite actually.
I just have the tendency to be oblivious as to when people are actually arguing, as I spend most of my time in positions where I am debating, or at the very least arguing without being passionate [That is, I can look passionate, but odds are, I'm not- just using the words.]
Alrah, in regards to "Malnarcissis advocates the enlightenment again... yawn. Reason as the supreme being and the animal as the Gnostic Evil Malkuth! Scuses me - but {****} that!"
Read what I typed again. If you don't read what you think I am saying into it, you'll know that's the opposite of what I said. In your same terminology, I'm advocating putting "The Gnostic Evil Malkuth," on a leash and forcing it to do what it should be doing, as it serves a purpose, too. It's just "Lost." I'm not advocating it as the negative, but rather a piece of us that is not needed to function on a more human level [That is, those things being that which humans excel at, not some fancy abstract]. Maybe it's just my typing style [When I put things in brackets, I am attempting to clarify my terminology, as I am aware that it is not necessarily the words I want, but can function as such].
Though, I find it entirely upsetting that you've made such assumptions just because I choose to use reason when it should be used- when communicating with others.
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@Alrah said
"Aye Takamba, but would you want to see my hand when I play poker too?
Look - I'm slightly tipsy here, and mellow as can be. I'm just going to say that I'm a Geordie lass, and I say it as I see it. Perhaps this is a cultural misunderstanding as much as anything?"
Perhaps we can make the famous excuse "communication on the Internet is difficult" but I never bought into that. It's no different than writing a letter (and if you can't do that without
being required, you aren't as good at communicating as you think). But that's just an aside as far as I am concerned. And no, I wouldn't want to see your hand if we were playing poker, because then i wouldn't be playing poker - I'd just be taking your money.