Western Magic
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93,
As an American Indian these types of sentiments bother me [Not a reservation baby, but I've been exposed to certian elements] . I wouldn't say the Europeans did anything wrong in colonizing the Americas [Sleezy, maybe. Wrong, no] and I most definitely wouldn't blame Christianity any more than I'd blame any other cultural quality the colonists shared [Indeed, that's really why I'm posting, but I would like to avoid too much excitement tonight]. It wasn't as if all the churches decided to put down their differences, rather it was just a relative few, and even then, it wasn't always religious in the nature of conquest [Well, in the North it happened later]
I wouldn't say they did anything wrong, because by and large most of the people in the Americas were from from as sophisticated as the Old World [Anyone may feel they were special, but it doesn't take a genius to tell they were by and large simply tribes people, with some exceptions in South America, but from what I can tell you might not be counting those.] Not to boil it down to overly simplistic terms, not progressing is almost admitting you want to lose your land. It's a harsh reality, but that is generally what the Americas were doing, any way- they just weren't able to play ball at the same caliber. [And yes, I realize what I said is almost blasphemy]
That being said, there is a good reason I don't use Native forms- I don't like them. They don't evoke the feelings I need, and most of it is, to be frank, quite culturally irrelevant. The Americas they describe in their corpus no longer exists on the natural level [I mean that in an abstract sense], and thus doesn't really lend it's self to things very well. Now, I am sure there are others who feel differently, but all the time I spent in sweat lodges, drum circles, and so forth as a kid really only taught me one thing- I can find better systems in other places.
That being said, I'm not sure I quite follow you. At first it seems like you wanted to know about people using Native American ideals in rituals, but then it evolved into a rant on the 'Evils of Christianity,' culminated in a comparison to Crowley and some mythical 'We.' The second post, frankly, is too strangely written to make sense to me- either you aren't aware that sustainability wasn't actually a Native value [Indeed, 'Natives' tend to feel oppositely, almost everywhere], or think that the age of America has any bearing on how the Modern world works [We may be a young nation, but we currently have the oldest constitution].
Finally, this part unsettles me, "All Indigenous people know it (who haven't fallen off the wagon or believed the demonizing of them by the White Father is true). I absolutely believe (still learning to know it) that this unfolding is a part of the prophecies of mystics everywhere."
What do all indigenous people know? It surely isn't that "There way is not the only way," as they've been killing each other over that for years, too. Also, how would that NOT be part of a 'prophecy?' Doesn't "Those who can't defend themselves will be defeated," seem pretty much as vague a prophecy as "One day, you will die?" What did you mean by this part?
93 93/93
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Why are you so caught up on your heritage and the evils of Christianity? I am Italian American but I don't sit around fuming about how the Austrio-Hungarians killed my great uncle during World War I etc. The subjugation and extermination of many tribes should be more attributed to old racial ideas and steroeotypes rather than religious ones alone; that the White Aryan was destined to move west just as his White Teutonic ancestors did. It was the same racial attitude that led to our deplorable treatment of the Hawaiians and later the Filipinos.
I'm no fan of nominal Christianity either but do not use Crowley to justify your hatred of it. He certainly detested many Christians of his time and the religion they twisted to suit their needs but to say that he agreed with you on all things pertaining to Christianity is a gross misinterpretation. Crowley respects mystics like Jesus, Augustine, Ignatius of Loyolla, he just hates dogma. Regardie displays an even more sympathetic view to some Christian mystics, values, and systems of mysticism.
You would do well to remember that Christian missionarys and Catholic priests were some of the few people actually arguing that Native Americans and other indigenous people deserved fair treatment and equal rights. Frankly I'm tired of hearing how Indians have some kind of special access to spiritual knowledge just because they refused to accept that the world changes and because they were history's doormat for the last few hundred years.
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@Laertes said
"Why are you so caught up on your heritage and the evils of Christianity? I am Italian American but I don't sit around fuming about how the Austrio-Hungarians killed my great uncle during World War I etc. The subjugation and extermination of many tribes should be more attributed to old racial ideas and steroeotypes rather than religious ones alone; that the White Aryan was destined to move west just as his White Teutonic ancestors did. It was the same racial attitude that led to our deplorable treatment of the Hawaiians and later the Filipinos.
I'm no fan of nominal Christianity either but do not use Crowley to justify your hatred of it. He certainly detested many Christians of his time and the religion they twisted to suit their needs but to say that he agreed with you on all things pertaining to Christianity is a gross misinterpretation. Crowley respects mystics like Jesus, Augustine, Ignatius of Loyolla, he just hates dogma. Regardie displays an even more sympathetic view to some Christian mystics, values, and systems of mysticism.
You would do well to remember that Christian missionarys and Catholic priests were some of the few people actually arguing that Native Americans and other indigenous people deserved fair treatment and equal rights. Frankly I'm tired of hearing how Indians have some kind of special access to spiritual knowledge just because they refused to accept that the world changes and because they were history's doormat for the last few hundred years."
93,
Thank you. This is a sentiment I've had for awhile.
93 93/93
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"Why are you so caught up on your heritage and the evils of Christianity?"
I would love to ask Therion the same question... lol...
Yes. It's very difficult to speak in generalizations about these things. But it is easy to relate to the emotion of it. It's the same emotion that fueled A.C.'s attempt to tear Christianity completely down, with some other dogmatic religions sprinkled in for good measure.
I'll sum up a lot of erased stuff....
Some Thelemites hate Gardner and Wicca and see it as a distraction. Nevertheless, others see it as a particular outer court translation of the Aeon to a people coming from a particular cultural starting place, and Therion seems to have smiled on it. I know that a few have walked that path and ended up here.
I think Native Americans might flourish under some similar reorganization of past culturally and experientially ingrained spiritual symbols.
[gasp] Scandalous thoughts...! lol...
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It's the correspondences I find uncanny and useful since it makes it an easier fit (the more masks the merrier?) I have some good ideas and a lot to do with the western expansion. I think some of you do too! Workin it!
I have little use for anyone who reads my writing and offers logical fallacies as to where I am headed with this. It's a brilliant unfolding if one can see it!! Thanks!
For those who can't, I appreciate your input and will answer points that are made, albeit slanted and malformed.
93's!
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@malnarcissis said
"93,
As an American Indian these types of sentiments bother me [Not a reservation baby, but I've been exposed to certian elements] . I wouldn't say the Europeans did anything wrong in colonizing the Americas [Sleezy, maybe. Wrong, no]
<<<
genocide isn’t sleezy, you should bump that up a few degrees, it was genocide. And still is. I’m not a bleeding hear but am for justice. We’re not all gone and it’s all good. Nay. Indeed conquering in that way is old aeon crap. If you look at who is still doing it, they sit in that seat. Not I.and I most definitely wouldn't blame Christianity any more than I'd blame any other cultural quality the colonists shared [Indeed, that's really why I'm posting, but I would like to avoid too much excitement tonight].
>>
Oh, I blame Christianity (or as the adage goes, Jesus, save me from your followers. I don't think those people were doing it right. But I'm coming from a gnostic stance.It wasn't as if all the churches decided to put down their differences, rather it was just a relative few, and even then, it wasn't always religious in the nature of conquest [Well, in the North it happened later]
>>huh?I wouldn't say they did anything wrong, because by and large most of the people in the Americas were from from as sophisticated as the Old World [Anyone may feel they were special, but it doesn't take a genius to tell they were by and large simply tribes people, with some exceptions in South America, but from what I can tell you might not be counting those.]
>> huh?Not to boil it down to overly simplistic terms, not progressing is almost admitting you want to lose your land.
>> huh? Who said they didn’t want progress? Or don’t? They were as progressive as it gets. Examples please.It's a harsh reality, but that is generally what the Americas were doing, any way- they just weren't able to play ball at the same caliber. [And yes, I realize what I said is almost blasphemy]
>> so you are saying slaughtering millions of people is a good idea? It wasn’t, but it did happen, my heart isn’t bleeding, but I’m not going down like that. Don’t have to, I’m 93. We now have peace treaties and the U.N working on humanitarian rights, just as ol Crow wrote it. Indians were already working OZ.That being said, there is a good reason I don't use Native forms- I don't like them.
>> what are native forms?They don't evoke the feelings I need, and most of it is, to be frank, quite culturally irrelevant.
<< I’m not asking to you to. I’m asking for other builders to pitch in, I don’t need people coming by saying why they aren’t.The Americas they describe in their corpus no longer exists on the natural level [I mean that in an abstract sense], and thus doesn't really lend it's self to things very well.
<<Untrue. Science today is looking to indigenous practices to assist in some major repair work done by colonizers whose children are now suffering the consequences. Indians look ahead, Americans are mostly "me, now". Indians aren't looking backwards. 7 generations in front is the motto. We’re still here, I’m not from 1850. Theres more to it than you seem to understand. I'm good with that, I hope you can articulate the points where I say "huh?"Now, I am sure there are others who feel differently, but all the time I spent in sweat lodges, drum circles, and so forth as a kid really only taught me one thing- I can find better systems in other places.
<< as a kid, what could you have possibly gained? I’m skeptical you accessed any systems. Sweat lodge is akin to a banishing ritual (ie) and drum circles are social. This has little to nothing to do with what I’m talking about. Ceremonial magic isn't really where kids are asked to be unless they are being initiated intentionally because they hold some sort of power that is obvious by council.That being said, I'm not sure I quite follow you.
<< This I find true yet you replied!!At first it seems like you wanted to know about people using Native American ideals in rituals, but then it evolved into a rant on the 'Evils of Christianity,' culminated in a comparison to Crowley and some mythical 'We.'
>> Not quite like that, but do what thou wilt. If you can’t find the common thread, just ask. Forced oppression and Christianity is the key to both problems. Thelema is a solution, of which I will divulge into more as things progress. I’m not new at this stuff exactly, but somewhat ready to step things up.The second post, frankly, is too strangely written to make sense to me- either you aren't aware that sustainability wasn't actually a Native value [Indeed, 'Natives' tend to feel oppositely, almost everywhere], or think that the age of America has any bearing on how the Modern world works [We may be a young nation, but we currently have the oldest constitution].
>>> huh? The constitution is drawn from the Iroquios Confederacy. You must have read it wrong. Sustainability is the only focus of Native Americans. It’s only become unsustainable since contact, and this is a global issue. Indians are scientists and magicians, so the method of science and aim of religion was already occurring all over the planet already.Finally, this part unsettles me, "All Indigenous people know it (who haven't fallen off the wagon or believed the demonizing of them by the White Father is true). I absolutely believe (still learning to know it) that this unfolding is a part of the prophecies of mystics everywhere."
>>What part unsettles you? Or how can I clarify? I'm not sure I'm being quoted properly.What do all indigenous people know?
<< That they are.It surely isn't that "There way is not the only way,"
<< No one said that.as they've been killing each other over that for years, too.
<< Some tribes war. Many don’t. The warring tribes can be environmentally akin to over population and other things, but they weren’t causing genocide in the name of the Lord. They are magical, that means there are things going on being the scenes that they were aware of. The Xtians who came intended ill will. They were pompass greedy and many of them criminals abandoning their own lands. Anyone who is right with their Lord would not behave the way these demons did. Only a few tribes were warring and it’s the stereotype that offers you your opinion. No tribes are at war at this time. They began alliances (1700’s) when they found that the new people intended on wiping out all of them as fast as possible. A task not completed.Also, how would that NOT be part of a 'prophecy?'
<< it is a part of prophecy, all of it is.Doesn't "Those who can't defend themselves will be defeated," seem pretty much as vague a prophecy as "One day, you will die?" What did you mean by this part?
<< did I say that? You may have vague prophecies, ours are right on time.I’m certain you are not reading me right and are confirmed in your convictions. I’m not sure how Thelema works for you with this, it probably doesn’t. But it’s early.
93 93/93"
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@malnarcissis said
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@Laertes said
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Why are you so caught up on your heritage and the evils of Christianity?>>Because of genocide and crimes against humanity
I am Italian American but I don't sit around fuming about how the Austrio-Hungarians killed my great uncle during World War I etc. The subjugation and extermination of many tribes should be more attributed to old racial ideas and steroeotypes rather than religious ones alone; that the White Aryan was destined to move west just as his White Teutonic ancestors did. It was the same racial attitude that led to our deplorable treatment of the Hawaiians and later the Filipinos.
>>Yeah, lets end this mess then.I'm no fan of nominal Christianity either but do not use Crowley to justify your hatred of it.
>> I don’t hate anything except ignorance. It’s a Crowley thing that drives my boat.He certainly detested many Christians of his time and the religion they twisted to suit their needs but to say that he agreed with you on all things pertaining to Christianity is a gross misinterpretation.
>> I never said that. But it is the same ilk of faith followers.Crowley respects mystics like Jesus, Augustine, Ignatius of Loyolla, he just hates dogma.
>> Same here.Regardie displays an even more sympathetic view to some Christian mystics, values, and systems of mysticism.
Christianity is not Christian Mysticism. Jesus H Christ!
You would do well to remember that Christian missionarys and Catholic priests were some of the few people actually arguing that Native Americans and other indigenous people deserved fair treatment and equal rights.
>> Like who? The California Missions were built by Indian slaves for the missionaries so they could teach them to be more Christian. Their branch of Christian, not true gnosis, that would have been fine and they would have a lot to learn from each other. It works quite well today. The idea when they came was extermination. They hated any pagans, all over the world, and they should die. Is that 93?Frankly I'm tired of hearing how Indians have some kind of special access to spiritual knowledge just because they refused to accept that the world changes and because they were history's doormat for the last few hundred years. << well you seem just as ignorant as the other guy and I’ll leave it at that.
93 93/93"
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93,
"genocide isn’t sleezy, you should bump that up a few degrees, it was genocide. And still is. I’m not a bleeding hear but am for justice. We’re not all gone and it’s all good. Nay. Indeed conquering in that way is old aeon crap. If you look at who is still doing it, they sit in that seat. Not I.
"You're right. For the most part, though, I wouldn't call it a genocide any more than I would call accidental species transplants genocide. The fact is many of the events that decimated the population were not done maliciously- the Europeans were told by rival tribes about how bad other tribes were, and killed them believing these things. Later gifts they were given led to contamination, which was most definitely not on purpose. Were bad things done beyond that? Yes. Once the wheels began moving, the Natives lost their land [As is fit. They had plenty of time to advance. Rustic living is no excuse for weakness in the political scheme], whether they want to try to rationalize it with the whole 'the land is ours,' spiel doesn't change the fact that they sure acted like they owned it with each other.
"Oh, I blame Christianity (or as the adage goes, Jesus, save me from your followers. I don't think those people were doing it right. But I'm coming from a gnostic stance. "
Why, though? How about I blame it on Native American religion that they got killed? Just because a religion, or any other thing is involved doesn't mean it is the issue. I see you have not derided the nice form of housing you get to live in that the Natives were not cognizant enough to develop, why not? It isn't like the survivors benefited, and I can't be the only one who sees that as worth the loss of life for a group not willing to pull it's self into the changing world. Harsh, but relevant.
"huh?"
You blame Christianity as f it has any direction it could take. You're dealing with so many disparate groups at the time that this is as broad an accusation as hating people with access to horses, because they did it, too.
"huh?"
Next part reads fine to me. It's not anything that needs explained, any way.
"huh? Who said they didn’t want progress? Or don’t? They were as progressive as it gets. Examples please."
Do you know anything by and large about the archery styles in North America? By and large [With some exceptions] they were crap [Add to that a lack of quality mining techniques,etc.]- they did not develop at nearly the rate you should expect a society to develop.
"so you are saying slaughtering millions of people is a good idea? It wasn’t, but it did happen, my heart isn’t bleeding, but I’m not going down like that. Don’t have to, I’m 93. We now have peace treaties and the U.N working on humanitarian rights, just as ol Crow wrote it. Indians were already working OZ."
Why do you keep invoking Crowley as if I care about the man's leanings? Beyond that, I'd say you are off on how the man felt. Very frequently he made it clear that a lot of people where going to lose humanitarian rights. At least, that's what I took out of some of his essays in front of the Centennial Liber L [I am not sure their publication names, atm].
But no, I didn't say it was a good idea. However, I did say that if millions of people don't want to be slaughtered on certain stages, then they need to be able to resist. In the Natives case they were generally too busy squabbling over old disputes, and basically let the Europeans do the rest. It's really a logical progression, and I can't really blame them- if I saw a bunch of people who had decided it a good idea to avoid constantly improving as a society, not using a lot of land to any effect, I might do the same [As a settler, any way]
"what are native forms? "
Religions that developed in the Pre-European Americas.
"Untrue. Science today is looking to indigenous practices to assist in some major repair work done by colonizers whose children are now suffering the consequences. Indians look ahead, Americans are mostly "me, now". Indians aren't looking backwards. 7 generations in front is the motto. We’re still here, I’m not from 1850. Theres more to it than you seem to understand. I'm good with that, I hope you can articulate the points where I say "huh?""
What? That has nothing to do with anything I said.Make sure you are paying attention to the topic you posted, as that's what I'm talking about- the corps of their works has been invalidated by the industrialization of the land. As soon as that started to happen the Animistic aspects stopped being relevant on as a profound level [As in, imagery while developing] as others. That isn't to say it is to all people, but it is just not universal.
"as a kid, what could you have possibly gained? I’m skeptical you accessed any systems. Sweat lodge is akin to a banishing ritual (ie) and drum circles are social. This has little to nothing to do with what I’m talking about. Ceremonial magic isn't really where kids are asked to be unless they are being initiated intentionally because they hold some sort of power that is obvious by council."
Again, when I type what I type, it means exactly what I typed. I did not claim to have done any advancement- the systems aesthetics did not appeal to me. That is all a system can really offer to draw someone in. This type did not for me.
"This I find true yet you replied!!"
Generally I ask people to clairify if I don't think I know what they mean. What do you do?
"Not quite like that, but do what thou wilt. If you can’t find the common thread, just ask. Forced oppression and Christianity is the key to both problems. Thelema is a solution, of which I will divulge into more as things progress. I’m not new at this stuff exactly, but somewhat ready to step things up."
Fine. What is the common thread other than you needing a scape goat? Do you make sure to blame Mexico, too, as they stem from an intermixing of the Spanish settlers? If not, why not? It is a more relevant quality than the religion they happened to possess.
"huh? The constitution is drawn from the Iroquios Confederacy. You must have read it wrong. Sustainability is the only focus of Native Americans. It’s only become unsustainable since contact, and this is a global issue. Indians are scientists and magicians, so the method of science and aim of religion was already occurring all over the planet already."
Ah, the myth of Native American pastoralism. Protip- native peoples all around the world in abundant lands tend to be very rough with their environments. As the populations get larger, more issues arise.
"What part unsettles you? Or how can I clarify? I'm not sure I'm being quoted properly."
That it sounds like you said the only reason indigenous cultures become more Euro-centric in outlook is because of low self esteem.
"That they are."
What a wonderfully vague statement full of useless nothing. Everyone realizes that they are something. How is this special?
"Some tribes war. Many don’t. The warring tribes can be environmentally akin to over population and other things, but they weren’t causing genocide in the name of the Lord. They are magical, that means there are things going on being the scenes that they were aware of. The Xtians who came intended ill will. They were pompass greedy and many of them criminals abandoning their own lands. Anyone who is right with their Lord would not behave the way these demons did. Only a few tribes were warring and it’s the stereotype that offers you your opinion. No tribes are at war at this time. They began alliances (1700’s) when they found that the new people intended on wiping out all of them as fast as possible. A task not completed.
"Demonstrably false. The first tribe the Puritans met convinced them to use their powder weapons against a nearby tribe. That is a matter of fact, and seems to get echoed very frequently. Beyond that, what gives you such moral authority to chastise the Europeans? You seem like it bothers you that people you will never meet were killed, resulting in a higher quality of life. Or are you being held captive?
"it is a part of prophecy, all of it is."
Then call me when you have a prophecy that isn't too vague as to be bloody obvious.
"did I say that? You may have vague prophecies, ours are right on time."
Ah, the good old "My faith delivers prophecy," tactic. I seem to remember that from a pretty influential Middle Eastern religion.
"I’m certain you are not reading me right and are confirmed in your convictions. I’m not sure how Thelema works for you with this, it probably doesn’t. But it’s early."
Generally, I just use the words you're trying to convey.
/edit: Ignorant? Maybe, but I'd rather be ignorant than wrong.
93 93/93
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Whose fault is it when someone gets beat up?
If you hate being weak, then it's probably best to blame the weak for their weakness.
If you hate being an asshole, then it's probably best to blame the asshole for their holiness
In the end, both end up being kind of true.Technological evolution and spiritual evolution are two very different aspects of civilization. Technology usually wins battles regardless of degree of spiritual evolution. That part's not my favorite.
Alrah - during a point in my life where everything came crashing down at once, theology was discarded as useless, and I had to move back home with the Mom and Pop to begin again... There in that dark and wordless time, so many consolations came from hawk and deer messengers.
Once, I was walking down the road, trying to resolve disparate beliefs, and I came to this realization about my former Christian beliefs about salvation. At that very moment, a hawk dove out of the sky and snatched a snake from a bush about 5 meters away and flew off. It was... you know... just one of those moments... It was beautiful. Never forget it.
Hawks, eagles, falcons... probably depends on where the tribe was.
But absolutely the bird of prey, yes. And in my own region, the hawk, which I absolutely love. It's an incredibly beautiful and majestic animal.
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I'm not gonna argue with the nayers, I've outgrown it and doesn't feel like the Law I Love. People are confusing the past with the present and it's not really workable art. I know what I know because I experience it first hand so it leaves you guys with just nitpicking about things you are little aware of. I'm used to it and it' an old hat. However, Christianity in this regard is a political movement, hidden in religulous clothing, hiding behind the genius, not the genius. There is a lot to be said about that and those who defend it. And just for education purposes, the entire continent was ful of people. The tendency to glump all Indians as one nations is juvenile and uneducated. I have no idea about the eastern Indians. I am from the west, the left coast. So your applications to what I am saying don't apply to what I know in the least since. California was decimated in a short time, on purpose. By missionaries in the name of the Lord. We lived in Utopia and not that long ago.
It makes me wonder what kind of world you would like to live in, but you come of as a hater, so I guess I don't want to know.
Do what thou wilt!
Now back to the program-- In indigenous mythos, the Eagle is the highest flyer. This is significant in lore it means he is closest to the Creator or Transformer, however you call it way up there. He can see the furtherest of any flyer. Mythos says he can see back and forth 7 generation. This is to do with the structure and survival of family clans. Remembering that indigenous people do not use the patriarchal stance on family (we do today, but we use other values as well, hence the motto, "we are all related" "it's all relative" and they mate for life, this pertains to their relationships and strength. Overall, they can see the big picture always. Hawks are pretty much little brother to eagle. In my experience, at every funeral I've been to here have been hawks circling the area. We always see them as protectors and visionaries. But the entire animal kingdom has a job to do that's vital to us all. That's why our stories about creation always have animals taking their places and establishing their works.
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Alrah-- I've seen that before too. I can only speculate form my experience that they must be drawn to that state. I have been at funerals outdoors and they show up and circle about for long periods of time, it's like they want to be seen, but who knows, I always look up and there they are. Not just at funerals, but it seems like any well intended formal meditation or ceremony. It does offer a sense of reverence.
and pardon my typos, it's been a time of ordeals and i'm just not on top of things like that, but it matters to me! lol!
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@anistara said
"I'm not gonna argue with the nayers, I've outgrown it and doesn't feel like the Law I Love. People are confusing the past with the present and it's not really workable art. I know what I know because I experience it first hand so it leaves you guys with just nitpicking about things you are little aware of. I'm used to it and it' an old hat. However, Christianity in this regard is a political movement, hidden in religulous clothing, hiding behind the genius, not the genius. There is a lot to be said about that and those who defend it. And just for education purposes, the entire continent was ful of people. The tendency to glump all Indians as one nations is juvenile and uneducated. I have no idea about the eastern Indians. I am from the west, the left coast. So your applications to what I am saying don't apply to what I know in the least since. California was decimated in a short time, on purpose. By missionaries in the name of the Lord. We lived in Utopia and not that long ago.
It makes me wonder what kind of world you would like to live in, but you come of as a hater, so I guess I don't want to know.
Do what thou wilt!
Now back to the program-- In indigenous mythos, the Eagle is the highest flyer. This is significant in lore it means he is closest to the Creator or Transformer, however you call it way up there. He can see the furtherest of any flyer. Mythos says he can see back and forth 7 generation. This is to do with the structure and survival of family clans. Remembering that indigenous people do not use the patriarchal stance on family (we do today, but we use other values as well, hence the motto, "we are all related" "it's all relative" and they mate for life, this pertains to their relationships and strength. Overall, they can see the big picture always. Hawks are pretty much little brother to eagle. In my experience, at every funeral I've been to here have been hawks circling the area. We always see them as protectors and visionaries. But the entire animal kingdom has a job to do that's vital to us all. That's why our stories about creation always have animals taking their places and establishing their works."
93,
Again, you can just say 'Fuck off. If you want to call me a naysayer, fine. However I would trust my opinion far more than yous considering I have no sentimental inclination towards the actions.
93 93/93
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"
If you hate being weak, then it's probably best to blame the weak for their weakness.
If you hate being an {***hole}, then it's probably best to blame the {***hole} for their holiness
In the end, both end up being kind of true. "I'm not blaming anything, except possibly political retardation. They had plenty of time to act like real people and advance on their own. They did not, so somebody did it for them
93 93/93
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@malnarcissis said
"
"
If you hate being weak, then it's probably best to blame the weak for their weakness.
If you hate being an {***hole}, then it's probably best to blame the {***hole} for their holiness
In the end, both end up being kind of true. "I'm not blaming anything, except possibly political retardation. They had plenty of time to act like real people and advance on their own. They did not, so somebody did it for them
93 93/93"
I was thinking more technological than political.
"...act like real people..." ?
Perhaps you are more emotionally invested than you realize.
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93,
Nah. It's a phrase I've taken up. When people don't show any desire to go forward in life, they might as well not be called "Real," people. It's as insulting as it needs to be. I don't think any Tribal based society should be allowed a free pass just because they never wanted to advance in the world stage. XD, though, I guess that sentiment applies to Tibet.
I'll never understand why people need to assume just because I'm not nice I'm trying to say something else.
93 93/93
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93,
The Native Americans, while they had a wondeful knowledge of the American Conntinent lacked some pretty normal conventions much of the world could develop on it's own. For one, the entire practical system was far too simple. Tribal environments work wonderfully [And yes, I am aware that Nations formed, however those are far from the norm, and generally more of an alliance] for those in a constant struggle to survive. Frankly with the abundance in this continent, they could easily have devoted their energies to making life better [I'd say civilized, but that is too loaded a word, and denies that they were a type of civilization].
To put it in perspective, even in Arabia, a good portion of the Bedouins had begun to settle in areas. While a migratory life style is good for somethings it tends to not advance ceertain aspects fast enough. To make things better, the Americans would hold rivalries with tribes when they had more than enough to simply share. While I am not saying that is an Eastern speciality [Far from it], but there was just too many opportunities for them to advance culturally.
I can't comment too much on technology until AFTER the Europeans arrived, as I am not really aware of what could be developed here that could not in the East and vice versa.
After the Europeans appeared, there was no excuse to not have adapted to the standards brought with the Europeans [Note, I am not saying norms, but rather increasing the quality of life for each other], especially in weaponry, as it was very obvious that the new people arriving were not always friendly.
By real I mean showing those drives which cause humans to seek more. You're free to disagree with that definition, as I am aware of the possible racial connotations, but rest assured, I am not using it in the genetic sense.
Retarded means not having developed properly. If you can deny this, good luck, as I would hardly call the default organization of humans advanced compared to methods developing over in Europe at the time [Not that the Natives should have had a functional democracy, that is asking too much in such a large area for the time]
That's nice, I really don't care what Bush or Obama do. I never once denied that he modern descendants were being treated improperly at times, but I don't really care. The reaction was to claiming that the evils of Christianity are to blame. I disagree, as blaming a religion for actions is just silly. I blame it on superiority on the cultural and technical and political level, as are those are the things that lead to this, historically.
I would honestly say it was Christianity that led to the remaining pieces of Native culture here in the US. As antithetical as it sounds, without the Missions the Europeans probably would have done what they normally do with groups they felt were not fully humans.
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