Questions on Asana, and other preliminaries
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agreed,
and just because Crowley seems to have "failed" one single jugorum trial among probably hundreds hardly proves that this method is always ineffective for Crowley and all Thelemites. This is basic statistics; making the conclusion that jugorum doesn't work based on just one random recorded trial is quite flawed.Crowley probably did hundreds of jugorum trials alone and his followers have done thousands more, you would have to survey a good sample of all them to say anything about the results of jugroum.
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@Alrah said
"
@AvshalomBinyamin said
"How is that not successful?He decided that he would avoid behavior x, for y period of time, and for every slip, engage in z response. He did x, y, and z as he agreed to. Ergo, he succeeded at his intention.
If one could do the practice without any slips, one wouldn't exactly have any reason to do the practice in the first place, now, would they?"
The practise of cutting himself was meant to reinforce the practise of his Vow. It did not. Ergo - it was not successful."
What do I give about some dead man? It worked for me.
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@Alrah said
"
@Takamba said
"What do I give about some dead man? It worked for me."What did you do? And is it still effective now you've removed the punishment?
If it only works when you carry a razor blade in your pocket then you're a slave to punishment."
You are totally missing the point. It's an exercise. "The object of the whole exercise is to create a sentinel to stand and watch at the threshold of the mind" The object is not to learn to never use the word "I" again.
sheesh
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@Alrah said
"This is an exceedingly strange conversation to be having with a bunch of magicians.
You are taught to be able to draw down the light and the love when needed - and that feels inherently good, pure and right.
The way to retrain your mind from unhelpful thoughts is to be vigilant and to utilize this ability.
I used to have a problem with habitual thoughts: they were an outcropping of the way I was raised by my Father. He's a Virgo. A very safety conscious man, and he used to say "be careful when you do that or... something horrible will happen". Being a visual thinker - I used to imagine the something horrible. Then when I was an adult I found my mind would go automatically into imagining dangerous outcomes of ordinary common place things. Anyway - my own mind wasn't a very pleasant place to be because of this... but because there was a habitual subroutine running in the background of my mind everytime I tried to stop it I ended up fighting a loosing battle to stop these thoughts popping up to the surface again like yellow ducks in the bath.
What I wished is for those thought to bubble up only when there was a clear need for such a warning - a drastic reduction in the frequency they would arise, so instead of fighting it I practised beng vigilant for week or two, and everytime they would start I'd cut them off by doing middle pillar. It's a conscious distraction technique to retrain the mind. After a while these bothersome thoughts stopped arising. It works for egotistic compensatory day dreams also."
Good for you.
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@Alrah said
"
@RobertAllen said
"By the end I was able to manage a whole week of not thinking about anything related to what I imagined at the time was a difficult topic, sex. No mean feat for a teenager!So. I've been following this thread, and trying to imagine how I might conceivably do something similar through positive reinforcement, as opposed to the Jugorum method, and I am drawing a total blank."
Do you think you're drawing a blank because there isn't a method of either positive reinforcement or negative punishment (i.e. withdrawl of something you enjoy), or because men in society are more socialised to accept the argument of 'no pain, no gain' and were traditionally expected to adopt the role of being the disiplinarians of the family? i.e. - Mother tells child "if you don't stop that right now, I'm going to tell your Father!" I've always thought that was very unfair to men. "
I think the point is that it is just one more weapon in ones arsenal (I know, this is such a male analogy!). There are both positive and negative weapons. You seem to making the argument that Jugorum is imbalanced towards the male side of the equation. If that's all anyone ever did I would agree with you. And I do agree with you in that balance is needed. The Tree of Life has three columns, and often we can only approximate the middle pillar by balancing the two outer pillars.
I just don't see positive methods doing the exact same thing as the negative. To be totally positive is as one-sided as being totally negative. I'm not arguing that this is the only way to develop the will, and I don't think most of the other contributors are arguing that either. We do positive things all the time. The Oath is a positive act, affirming the will in the most positive terms—for forty days I will...
Nevertheless, the negative method will produce a species of control that is unlike anything the positive methods can do. So in a way, you need to take that into consideration if you are in fact striving for some kind of well rounded development.
@Alrah said
"
"The beauty of the method is that it is totally negative—the body's aversion to pain is used to advance the person as a whole, including the body. If it is not abused, precautions are taken, and it isn't a vehicle for pathological tendencies its a win win. Being able to utter a forceful 'NO' and have ones entire being fall into line is not a trivial ability, imho."I felt that way about having my cats fall into line and keep off the benches - but see my chicken example above.
"I love cats. We have a cat, now fifteen years old, had her since she was a kitten—runt of the litter, but with an amazing personality. She stays off my desk, and knows she is not allowed up there. Since she figured it out she has never in many many years broken this rule. We also have a dog, a male terrier mix, ten months old. We rescued him from the street when he was four months. He is also a wonderful dog, fun, intelligent, attentive. In this relationship I'm the alpha dog, what I say goes. If he disobeys me he gets punished. At the same time, I make a point of playing with him extensively every day, or he will turn into a dispirited cur—trips to the beach, an hour or two of ball throwing, unlimited access to sleeping in my lap... He has to, he knows he as to make a positive contribution to the house or the relationship will not work. At the same time, my obligation to his health and happiness is no less sacred. This works for us—the positive carrot and the negative stick, both.
love and will
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93,
Wow. I thought this would die. XD.
Frankly, Alrah, you've said somethings that can only be described as "Dumb." [I'll get to those after my story] I'm sorry if that is insulting, but you seem to not even understand the practice. If you think that exercises are only done for the goal, then I am sorry.
In my experience here is how it worked- Day 1, my breaks were terrible. After day 2, my arm looked a bit like meat. Day 3 is when I'd have progress, and only break a few times. This would continue until day 7 [I think I have one day that had 1 break, which was when I accidentally picked up the soap with the wrong half of my body, because it was falling. When that happened, my arms crossed.]
Day 7 was worse than day 1 for the most part. I blame the anticipation of my next exercise. Most importantly, however, after each week, the next practices day 1 showed a better result than previous first days, BUT I was terrified for some reason to do the previous weeks action, and for the most part managed to avoid doing the previous weeks action for a few days AFTER the exercise.
The most important note on all of this, is that I was intoxicated for a great deal of it. I do a lot of a certain substance on a daily basis, so for the most part, I was working on a very strange handicap. The result? As far as I could tell, this intoxication made the exercise HARDER. In the future when I am not in the position I am in now, I would enjoy trying it again, but for now, it is not a feasible alternative.
The first week, I avoided "And." Admittedly as it was finals week, with three separate papers to write, I did not count any breaks in the papers [I care a little more about doing practical things, for obvious reasons]. It was a pretty cool exercise, as it started to affect all kinds of other speech patterns. At first I thought I would have done a LOT of the word, but once I started to slow down, paraphrasing lots of things became easier, meaning my normal speech patterns could easily be broken.
The second week was, as mentioned above, "Crossing my arms." I took that in the most literal sense, and any time my arms crossed paths, it was a break. I had fewer breaks than the previous week, but when they happened, they tended to be spectacular. Perhaps the biggest result was that my mind would start to direct my body to move [That is, I could tell I was thinking to move]. Of course, I would like to try this having done part three.
Though, the last week I tried was admittedly much, much too broad, it led to some interesting events. The thought I chose was "Sex," as that tends to occupy most of my time when it is Winter Is not exciting. Day 4 produced the most interesting result, as I started to have a level of static just under all my thoughts that prevented certain ideas from entering. Day 7, I tried an experiment, as unlike the previous actions, there was a specific activity that was.. .Uh... Not being done. Well, after doing the cut for thinking to even do it, I learned I could do that activity to my body without really thinking about it.
After that week, it took me a few days to even feel the urge. I also noted that after the exercise, my own body has, for the most part, been much better at.. Reflexive actions. I don't know if that is the result of anything specific, but I would like to look deeper into it, hence the asking of how often Jvgorvm is a good idea.
So, since you seem to have so much dislike, what kind of record do you have? Why should anyone feel your opinion is valid in this regard? Are you just afraid?
Frankly, it seems to me that most of your practice is rooted in getting 'Something' for 'Nothing'.
Your attempt at data rigging was on par with simply lying. If you want to bring data in to any discussion it is YOUR job to make sure it is presented in the way that it was meant to be. If you decide to use it as a way to show that the practice is useful, then you would need to compile more than just Crowley's single event from 1907, for a week. I would wager that just like other people who have done it [See that thing from Gems that Achad was doing] he did it more than once. Frankly, I'm used to this kind of reasoning from certain Christian groups in the United States, not Thelemites.
You seem to be creating a division. By YOUR statements, you would consider any attempt to get better at anything a failure- if someone wants to lose weight would you call each day that they were not at their target a failure? Would you consider each day an athlete trains to be a failure? Why make such a division here for Crowley? Just because we are doing The Work doesn't mean it is somehow magically exempt from all other interactions existence entails.
"Or you could just study what psychology has to say about positive punishment: It doesn't tend to work long term."
Ugh. Psychology is the modern phrenology- i occasionally produces useful results, but for the most part there are so many variables in an individuals life that it can't really root it out. I would like to point out that according to psychology you suffer from a 'severe' form of delusion, as you apparently beleive in various things. So do most of us here.
"It's like when I trained my cats not to stand on the kitchen benches. If I'd catch one on the bench I'd apply positive punishment (I blew in their faces and commanded them down). It seemed to work a treat. Then one day I left a newly cooked chicken on the bench to cool down and had to pop out the house. I'll give them this: they had dragged the chicken onto the floor before they ate it."
My cat never steals food. I won't get into what I do, but it seems amazingly effective with larger cats, generally those who have had spent some time out in non-urban areas. Thing is, I don't like positive reinforcement, rather I like to find niches. Does it work on all things? No, but it works on the things it needs to.
"I didn't blame them. When the threat of punishment is removed and the original incentive is present to do the undesired behaviour - the conditioning snaps."
And in my experience what you just said is false. That may be how YOU work, but it is most definitely not how I work. Discipline is the bad thing, in the education sense, in my view. Rather, the realization that if conditions aren't meant, then life is bad is what works [As in, I find it much more appropriate to act as if the violence never happened. When you make note of it, you foster fear, and rebellion. YMMV]
"Do you think you're drawing a blank because there isn't a method of either positive reinforcement or negative punishment"
Isn't a method of what we're talking about that relies on negative reinforcement? You mean like Jvgorvm? Just because you disagree with it, doesn't mean it disappears.
"Your mind already has a sentinel. Everyone's does. I think we start to develop that when we master potty training. It doesn't need to be created."
Nice job trying to redefine concepts again. You know, this game only works when the goal posts stay put.
"I'd cut them off by doing middle pillar. It's a conscious distraction technique to retrain the mind. After a while these bothersome thoughts stopped arising. It works for egotistic compensatory day dreams also."
So, you're admitting to just trying to ignore your problems? I think I may have found the issue. You could conceivably do this with ANYTHING. When I was in high school, I used to drink. Worked pretty good for making my problems seem smaller. Just because you dressed it up as the Pillar is irrelevant, it is the same concept of retreat. Some of us prefer to actually remove the problems so they just aren't there.
"How much of this practise by people who are attracted to it is rooted in Love"
Irrelevant. By declaring things that are somehow "Not Love," you have already made a step that doesn't really make sense, which could very easily contribute to this.
Frankly, I knew Jvgorvm was considered a bit taboo, but I had not realized any Thelemite would be THIS against an exercise. I almost have to wonder if it isn't really just a misplaced insecurity.
93 93/93
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@Alrah said
"Lashtal Mal...? Ok. shrug Are you having fun?
"93,
Derp. Sorry, I forgot to reply to that
Next time I come back, I'll reply, but I need to clean somethings.Fun? Always. Just because I like to be harsh, doesn't mean I don't try to make it fun
93 93/93
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@Alrah said
"
Is Jugorum essentially unbalanced? How much of this practise by people who are attracted to it is rooted in Love (the Great Balancer), rather than power that appeals to the Ego in the absence of Love?
"Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. - A.C."
"Alrah, this is a really valid question that you ask. It doesn't invalidate the practice, but it is something everyone who works with it should be on their guard about. Jugorum is as subject to abuse as anything else. And like anything else, as soon as one stops deriving a benefit from it it should be stopped.
@Alrah said
"And isn't Love an essential expression of Will?
"I believe it is. I bet your a lot of fun to party with.
love and will
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It seems to me that a lot of posts are ignoring some valid points made earlier in this thread.
@Jim Eshelman said
"First, the underlying practice is control of speech. The Practicus is not limited to this particular way of gaining that control.
[...]
The practice of monitoring one’s speech always can be undertaken by itself, without the “punishment” signal, just to develop, by simple vigilance and will, a fair level of skill in control before one undertakes the more extreme practice. Set yourself up for success!
[...]
Sixth, behaviorism has learned, in more recent times, that rewarding a desired behavior is generally far more effective than punishing a bad one. Liber Jugorum’s methods may have been innovative for 1910 (when the paper was first published), but behavioral psychologists would consider them primitive barbarisms today. Keep attention on the underlying goal, and not so much on the method!"
People can have different results with Liber Jugorum. Some can find it very beneficial, some can find it marginally useful, some can find a modification handy, some can find it of no use, and find something else useful.
It's not like we have to figure out which one of those individual results is the correct evaluation.
Even if we had a study that showed that 75% of the people practicing it experience some impressive result doesn't mean that you should also do it. You might be one of the 25%, or have some other reason you would decide against it.
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93,
I am never going to get to cleaning my room. XD.
Oh, well. There's always tomorrow.
Any way-
"I understand the benefit of being able to stop any given thought from entering the mind, or any certain action from being performed, but so far it seems like no one has obtained permanent results (from this particular practice). If we found that some alternative method could produce better results, more of the time (and thats what we cared about), wouldn't you want to go with the alternative method?"
Sure. Find me one, and I'll try it, unless I've tried it before already. I think the issue is that not all things work for other people, based on what has led to their present state. I guarantee that positive reinforcement doesn't work for me, as it's just not something that appeals to me- this is the same in any are I've tried it in- education, exercise, and even eating [That is, I tend to not be as obsessed with foods that are sweet, or rewarding. My issue is, is that I don't stop] Though, it should be noted that I never once said "This is the only way for you all."
"Why avoid doing something so perfectly regular for a period of time? It's absurd. If you were to pick something so obviously hard right off the bat, you might die from blood loss... since you will probably think about sex, more often than you won't."
Er, in my first post I made it clear what I used. Frankly, if I managed to incur blood loss on that scale with a sewing needle set, I deserve what I get ;p. Even I think the razor blade method is ridiculous. Based on comments I've seen even Crowley regarded the marks made as a record- why make your record something that can kill you, or paralyze you?
The reason? Because it is hard. The instructions say "Commonly occurring." I examined what is commonly occurring, and chose. I've made the mention that sex was a bad choice anyway, but it was not empty.
"Seems to me like a better alternative is to just not think about sex at an inappropriate time... same goes for anything. Drugs, gambling, compulsive buying, or just interrupting meditation to go swat at some fly . I don't care to elaborate more on this, just making a point. You could find a million ways to do this that don't flatter your ego, or give you an excuse to indulge in masochistic abuses, or negative repressions."
Yes. I could do that. In fact, that's what stopped a lot of the motions and words. I fail to see how adding a "If you mess up there is a repercussion," makes it in someway bad- that is how it works anytime I decide to not pay attention driving. Er, "Indulging in masochistic abuses?" XD. Er, I think it was someone else who thought I was saying that, but no. XD. Admittedly, I've taken a LOT of hits in my life, but I wouldn't say I seek to do it, rather it is a method, like any other thing.
"I don't understand what not crossing your arms has to do with spiritual enlightenment, I'm sorry. Next time you may try yawning, or sneezing, or blinking. These things will occur. This failure, success thing is so trivial on this level. Sorry, but that's my opinion."
Have you ever read the first part of Liber Null? MMM I beleive. It clearly states why it recommends choosing actions for such practices based on a lack of caring or seeking advancement. I figured that would be obvious. Though, along these lines this could be asked about anything. While I respect your opinion, it is wrong, even from the perspective of normal, non-spiritually related things- breathing, walking in a set time, making the bed in the morning- how does making your environment what you tell it to be add any value to spirituality, again? To many it seems like a fairly substantive portion
"Give me a break here, man. You can't get over a daily habituation, and your going to start a practice like this by trying not to cross your arms? You don't see this habbituation thing as a bigger disrupter to your spiritual advance than say, doing or thinking about something completely normal and healthy?"
Uh, no. XD. I should have re-phrased that. I'm doing an experiment that I feel trumps this, but could either help, or hurt the result. Well, experiment is the wrong word. Extended self-education.
"What are we talking about here? Booze? Pot? H? Whatever it is, you shouldn't be ashamed to mention it here. I don't mean to judge, but you shouldn't make assumptions about people here. From the look of it, I bet we are in the same age range. Robert and Alrah deserve respect from pips like us.
"It's not that I'm ashamed, rather I don't feel the need to advertise. It was relevant to mention it, as it could be a reason why anything felt the way it did. To make it clear, it's just marijuana.
Though, I disagree with the people deserving respect from pips, it's not really due to malice. Respect is earned, and simply achieving a high score is not synonymous. I respect Alrah in the sense that she has not given up, tenacity is always welcome. However, I do not respect the complete eschewing of such practices so offhandedly. if she were to simply state she had tried it and her mileage was not equivalent, then I'd understand- but before that it's like watching someone denounce sex because it's icky.
"Personally, I have been through the addiction thing. I beat it without the use of a barbaric practice like this. To do that I needed to realize that Love was required... I had already been dishing myself out enough negativity and punishment."
Grats. Only substance I seem to have any addictive traits in regards to would be caffeine. I've always done possibly addictive things on a time table [I wonder if I still own those], and in specific amounts. My experiment is now simply seeing what happens when I let that restraint I've used snap [Think of it as facing a phobia, based on family history and legend ;p]. Was Jvgorvm a good idea while doing this? I think so. I had to be more aware of those weeks than I normally would.
"Even if we had a study that showed that 75% of the people practicing it experience some impressive result doesn't mean that you should also do it. You might be one of the 25%, or have some other reason you would decide against it."
That's part of what I am trying to say [Though, I would reverse the numbers in reality ;p]. Rather, I would just prefer not knocking on people for doing that by comparing them to a cat that has brain activity dulling levels of boredom without having experienced that from the practice.
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@Frater Aster Lux said
"I understand the benefit of being able to stop any given thought from entering the mind, or any certain action from being performed,
[...]
I don't understand what not crossing your arms has to do with spiritual enlightenment, I'm sorry. Next time you may try yawning, or sneezing, or blinking. These things will occur. This failure, success thing is so trivial on this level. Sorry, but that's my opinion."
These 2 items miss the point of Jugorum.
The point is not to permanently rid yourself of a behavior. The point is to be able to decide arbitrarily to cease a certain thought, word, or action for a set length of time, and to be able to do so.
For example, if you're going to do a magickal operation, and you want to ensure that you don't permit a contrary thought during the period of the magickal operation. You need to be able to obtain that control of thought that will enhance the magickal power.
In fact, choosing inherently arbitrary, non-moral behaviors, like arm crossing or blinking, is the preferred method for Jugorum. That way you don't make the mistake of mixing up silly moralistic nonsense with the practice.
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@Alrah said
"
"However, I do not respect the complete eschewing of such practices so offhandedly. if she were to simply state she had tried it and her mileage was not equivalent, then I'd understand..."Oh dear. A pissing contest? Really?
Boys! Ok - I'll play once to be a sport, but that's the end of it Mal.For arts sake, I recently threw myself into a freezing cold river in a thin cotton dress, completely relaxed my body and 'Played Dead' in the water. As that was like knives all over every part of my body yet I retained the command over myself to relax and do my job, I think it counts as 'mileage'.
I'm off to read 'Galilee' again. Goodnight."
93,
That isn't a pissing contest, Al. it's a simple thing- I would say the same to a friend who refuses to at least understand that some people like coffee, and others like tea. Now, if you want to compare notes about how often we both break, then I'd say it's a pissing contest. Which I don't want to do, obviously.
XD. Well, maybe over there that's a challenge. XD. I do it yearly as a tradition I started with some friends a long time ago [What? Winter is cold and slow!]. Though, the mechanic is slightly different- that one is more overtly mystical [Indeed, some groups have done that for their gnosis equivalent], as opposed to a self-restraint.
I think you're trying to assume I want to claim machismo. I really don't, it's JUST a method.
93 93/93
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Anti-pissing-contest: I've never practiced Jugorum as is, with a razor blade, because as a young person I experimented a bit too much with razor blades, and I don't think it would be smart for me to take that up again.
I've tried brief spells of it with a rubber band around the wrist and found the results impressive for me. And then I tabled the practice until I have need to hone that skill in the future.
A non-sequitur story of what happens when you lack the ability that the practice aims to develop.
I was about 3, and it was my intent to eat a piece of barbecued chicken while wearing sunglasses, and not smudge the glasses with barbecue sauce. I had never attempted such a thing, but it seemed simple enough. I ate the chicken, being sooooo careful not to touch my glasses. I finished, wiped my hands on a napkin, and went to check out my presumably spotless sunglasses in a mirror, only to discover that they were covered in smears of barbecue sauce!
Somehow, without realizing it, I was touching my glasses repeatedly the entire time.
There's no reason why a person should have to try something before you have the privilege of deciding what's a good idea for them... but I would be curious to see what their glasses look like after eating barbecue!
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93,
"There's no reason why you should have to try something before you have the privilege of deciding what's a good idea for you..."
Agreed. I don't try drinking cyanide, as I have a reasonable idea of why that would suck. However, I would not stop or complain about somebody else eating apple seeds because there is cyanide present. That's why I keep replying, because the statements I'm making are are either too vague to understand, or I'm just socially retarded. When this Jvgorvm discussion began, I simply rejected the notion that the practice was in someway about self-denial.
Edit- Has anyone gotten the urge to just start a new thread on Jvgorvm?
93 93/93
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@malnarcissis said
"
Edit- Has anyone gotten the urge to just start a new thread on Jvgorvm?"Search and I wouldn't be surprised to find one.
I only have this brief idea to say though: Jugorum is not, in my experience, so much about self-control as it is about self-awareness of a species that until I practiced, it was alien to me. That's why the aim is to start with a habit, not just any odd thing you do but one you haven't always been conscious of. These habits aren't intended to go away perfectly (but if this method works for you to aim for that, be my guest), that is why they are limited to a period of time. The only "goal" you need to know about is the goal of saying to yourself you had an experience.
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@Takamba said
"I only have this brief idea to say though: Jugorum is not, in my experience, so much about self-control as it is about self-awareness of a species that until I practiced, it was alien to me. That's why the aim is to start with a habit, not just any odd thing you do but one you haven't always been conscious of. "
This was my experience as well. Any success one has with this practice involves gaining the ability to be aware and to operate at a deeper level of intention, so that, in advanced instances it is possible to stop a thought that is about to happen. This is possible because you have become vigilant in more than a passing or superficial sense.
love and will
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In my experience, He who talks much on forum, practiceth little in the temple.