Questions on Asana, and other preliminaries
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@Alrah said
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Is Jugorum essentially unbalanced? How much of this practise by people who are attracted to it is rooted in Love (the Great Balancer), rather than power that appeals to the Ego in the absence of Love?
"Remember that unbalanced force is evil; that unbalanced severity is but cruelty and oppression; but that also unbalanced mercy is but weakness which would allow and abet Evil. - A.C."
"Alrah, this is a really valid question that you ask. It doesn't invalidate the practice, but it is something everyone who works with it should be on their guard about. Jugorum is as subject to abuse as anything else. And like anything else, as soon as one stops deriving a benefit from it it should be stopped.
@Alrah said
"And isn't Love an essential expression of Will?
"I believe it is. I bet your a lot of fun to party with.
love and will
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It seems to me that a lot of posts are ignoring some valid points made earlier in this thread.
@Jim Eshelman said
"First, the underlying practice is control of speech. The Practicus is not limited to this particular way of gaining that control.
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The practice of monitoring one’s speech always can be undertaken by itself, without the “punishment” signal, just to develop, by simple vigilance and will, a fair level of skill in control before one undertakes the more extreme practice. Set yourself up for success!
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Sixth, behaviorism has learned, in more recent times, that rewarding a desired behavior is generally far more effective than punishing a bad one. Liber Jugorum’s methods may have been innovative for 1910 (when the paper was first published), but behavioral psychologists would consider them primitive barbarisms today. Keep attention on the underlying goal, and not so much on the method!"
People can have different results with Liber Jugorum. Some can find it very beneficial, some can find it marginally useful, some can find a modification handy, some can find it of no use, and find something else useful.
It's not like we have to figure out which one of those individual results is the correct evaluation.
Even if we had a study that showed that 75% of the people practicing it experience some impressive result doesn't mean that you should also do it. You might be one of the 25%, or have some other reason you would decide against it.
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93,
I am never going to get to cleaning my room. XD.
Oh, well. There's always tomorrow.
Any way-
"I understand the benefit of being able to stop any given thought from entering the mind, or any certain action from being performed, but so far it seems like no one has obtained permanent results (from this particular practice). If we found that some alternative method could produce better results, more of the time (and thats what we cared about), wouldn't you want to go with the alternative method?"
Sure. Find me one, and I'll try it, unless I've tried it before already. I think the issue is that not all things work for other people, based on what has led to their present state. I guarantee that positive reinforcement doesn't work for me, as it's just not something that appeals to me- this is the same in any are I've tried it in- education, exercise, and even eating [That is, I tend to not be as obsessed with foods that are sweet, or rewarding. My issue is, is that I don't stop] Though, it should be noted that I never once said "This is the only way for you all."
"Why avoid doing something so perfectly regular for a period of time? It's absurd. If you were to pick something so obviously hard right off the bat, you might die from blood loss... since you will probably think about sex, more often than you won't."
Er, in my first post I made it clear what I used. Frankly, if I managed to incur blood loss on that scale with a sewing needle set, I deserve what I get ;p. Even I think the razor blade method is ridiculous. Based on comments I've seen even Crowley regarded the marks made as a record- why make your record something that can kill you, or paralyze you?
The reason? Because it is hard. The instructions say "Commonly occurring." I examined what is commonly occurring, and chose. I've made the mention that sex was a bad choice anyway, but it was not empty.
"Seems to me like a better alternative is to just not think about sex at an inappropriate time... same goes for anything. Drugs, gambling, compulsive buying, or just interrupting meditation to go swat at some fly . I don't care to elaborate more on this, just making a point. You could find a million ways to do this that don't flatter your ego, or give you an excuse to indulge in masochistic abuses, or negative repressions."
Yes. I could do that. In fact, that's what stopped a lot of the motions and words. I fail to see how adding a "If you mess up there is a repercussion," makes it in someway bad- that is how it works anytime I decide to not pay attention driving. Er, "Indulging in masochistic abuses?" XD. Er, I think it was someone else who thought I was saying that, but no. XD. Admittedly, I've taken a LOT of hits in my life, but I wouldn't say I seek to do it, rather it is a method, like any other thing.
"I don't understand what not crossing your arms has to do with spiritual enlightenment, I'm sorry. Next time you may try yawning, or sneezing, or blinking. These things will occur. This failure, success thing is so trivial on this level. Sorry, but that's my opinion."
Have you ever read the first part of Liber Null? MMM I beleive. It clearly states why it recommends choosing actions for such practices based on a lack of caring or seeking advancement. I figured that would be obvious. Though, along these lines this could be asked about anything. While I respect your opinion, it is wrong, even from the perspective of normal, non-spiritually related things- breathing, walking in a set time, making the bed in the morning- how does making your environment what you tell it to be add any value to spirituality, again? To many it seems like a fairly substantive portion
"Give me a break here, man. You can't get over a daily habituation, and your going to start a practice like this by trying not to cross your arms? You don't see this habbituation thing as a bigger disrupter to your spiritual advance than say, doing or thinking about something completely normal and healthy?"
Uh, no. XD. I should have re-phrased that. I'm doing an experiment that I feel trumps this, but could either help, or hurt the result. Well, experiment is the wrong word. Extended self-education.
"What are we talking about here? Booze? Pot? H? Whatever it is, you shouldn't be ashamed to mention it here. I don't mean to judge, but you shouldn't make assumptions about people here. From the look of it, I bet we are in the same age range. Robert and Alrah deserve respect from pips like us.
"It's not that I'm ashamed, rather I don't feel the need to advertise. It was relevant to mention it, as it could be a reason why anything felt the way it did. To make it clear, it's just marijuana.
Though, I disagree with the people deserving respect from pips, it's not really due to malice. Respect is earned, and simply achieving a high score is not synonymous. I respect Alrah in the sense that she has not given up, tenacity is always welcome. However, I do not respect the complete eschewing of such practices so offhandedly. if she were to simply state she had tried it and her mileage was not equivalent, then I'd understand- but before that it's like watching someone denounce sex because it's icky.
"Personally, I have been through the addiction thing. I beat it without the use of a barbaric practice like this. To do that I needed to realize that Love was required... I had already been dishing myself out enough negativity and punishment."
Grats. Only substance I seem to have any addictive traits in regards to would be caffeine. I've always done possibly addictive things on a time table [I wonder if I still own those], and in specific amounts. My experiment is now simply seeing what happens when I let that restraint I've used snap [Think of it as facing a phobia, based on family history and legend ;p]. Was Jvgorvm a good idea while doing this? I think so. I had to be more aware of those weeks than I normally would.
"Even if we had a study that showed that 75% of the people practicing it experience some impressive result doesn't mean that you should also do it. You might be one of the 25%, or have some other reason you would decide against it."
That's part of what I am trying to say [Though, I would reverse the numbers in reality ;p]. Rather, I would just prefer not knocking on people for doing that by comparing them to a cat that has brain activity dulling levels of boredom without having experienced that from the practice.
93 93/93
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@Frater Aster Lux said
"I understand the benefit of being able to stop any given thought from entering the mind, or any certain action from being performed,
[...]
I don't understand what not crossing your arms has to do with spiritual enlightenment, I'm sorry. Next time you may try yawning, or sneezing, or blinking. These things will occur. This failure, success thing is so trivial on this level. Sorry, but that's my opinion."
These 2 items miss the point of Jugorum.
The point is not to permanently rid yourself of a behavior. The point is to be able to decide arbitrarily to cease a certain thought, word, or action for a set length of time, and to be able to do so.
For example, if you're going to do a magickal operation, and you want to ensure that you don't permit a contrary thought during the period of the magickal operation. You need to be able to obtain that control of thought that will enhance the magickal power.
In fact, choosing inherently arbitrary, non-moral behaviors, like arm crossing or blinking, is the preferred method for Jugorum. That way you don't make the mistake of mixing up silly moralistic nonsense with the practice.
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@Alrah said
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"However, I do not respect the complete eschewing of such practices so offhandedly. if she were to simply state she had tried it and her mileage was not equivalent, then I'd understand..."Oh dear. A pissing contest? Really?
Boys! Ok - I'll play once to be a sport, but that's the end of it Mal.For arts sake, I recently threw myself into a freezing cold river in a thin cotton dress, completely relaxed my body and 'Played Dead' in the water. As that was like knives all over every part of my body yet I retained the command over myself to relax and do my job, I think it counts as 'mileage'.
I'm off to read 'Galilee' again. Goodnight."
93,
That isn't a pissing contest, Al. it's a simple thing- I would say the same to a friend who refuses to at least understand that some people like coffee, and others like tea. Now, if you want to compare notes about how often we both break, then I'd say it's a pissing contest. Which I don't want to do, obviously.
XD. Well, maybe over there that's a challenge. XD. I do it yearly as a tradition I started with some friends a long time ago [What? Winter is cold and slow!]. Though, the mechanic is slightly different- that one is more overtly mystical [Indeed, some groups have done that for their gnosis equivalent], as opposed to a self-restraint.
I think you're trying to assume I want to claim machismo. I really don't, it's JUST a method.
93 93/93
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Anti-pissing-contest: I've never practiced Jugorum as is, with a razor blade, because as a young person I experimented a bit too much with razor blades, and I don't think it would be smart for me to take that up again.
I've tried brief spells of it with a rubber band around the wrist and found the results impressive for me. And then I tabled the practice until I have need to hone that skill in the future.
A non-sequitur story of what happens when you lack the ability that the practice aims to develop.
I was about 3, and it was my intent to eat a piece of barbecued chicken while wearing sunglasses, and not smudge the glasses with barbecue sauce. I had never attempted such a thing, but it seemed simple enough. I ate the chicken, being sooooo careful not to touch my glasses. I finished, wiped my hands on a napkin, and went to check out my presumably spotless sunglasses in a mirror, only to discover that they were covered in smears of barbecue sauce!
Somehow, without realizing it, I was touching my glasses repeatedly the entire time.
There's no reason why a person should have to try something before you have the privilege of deciding what's a good idea for them... but I would be curious to see what their glasses look like after eating barbecue!
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93,
"There's no reason why you should have to try something before you have the privilege of deciding what's a good idea for you..."
Agreed. I don't try drinking cyanide, as I have a reasonable idea of why that would suck. However, I would not stop or complain about somebody else eating apple seeds because there is cyanide present. That's why I keep replying, because the statements I'm making are are either too vague to understand, or I'm just socially retarded. When this Jvgorvm discussion began, I simply rejected the notion that the practice was in someway about self-denial.
Edit- Has anyone gotten the urge to just start a new thread on Jvgorvm?
93 93/93
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@malnarcissis said
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Edit- Has anyone gotten the urge to just start a new thread on Jvgorvm?"Search and I wouldn't be surprised to find one.
I only have this brief idea to say though: Jugorum is not, in my experience, so much about self-control as it is about self-awareness of a species that until I practiced, it was alien to me. That's why the aim is to start with a habit, not just any odd thing you do but one you haven't always been conscious of. These habits aren't intended to go away perfectly (but if this method works for you to aim for that, be my guest), that is why they are limited to a period of time. The only "goal" you need to know about is the goal of saying to yourself you had an experience.
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@Takamba said
"I only have this brief idea to say though: Jugorum is not, in my experience, so much about self-control as it is about self-awareness of a species that until I practiced, it was alien to me. That's why the aim is to start with a habit, not just any odd thing you do but one you haven't always been conscious of. "
This was my experience as well. Any success one has with this practice involves gaining the ability to be aware and to operate at a deeper level of intention, so that, in advanced instances it is possible to stop a thought that is about to happen. This is possible because you have become vigilant in more than a passing or superficial sense.
love and will
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In my experience, He who talks much on forum, practiceth little in the temple.