Western Magic
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You make some valid points. Any technologically advanced culture coming in would have ultimately done the same. It's just the way of things.
At the same time, I don't think moral outrage is out of place. The moral authority they claimed through their quoting of Hebrew scriptures about the conquest of Canaan to support their ideas of "manifest destiny" was completely blind to the teachings of Christ and absolutely self-interested. Whether or not this is simply the way of things has no bearing on the legitimate cries of falsehood and injustice, especially argued from their own Christian dogma.
There were Christian preachers, John Wesley for example, who preached against what was happening in the Americas in the name of Christ.
So, Christian, non-Christian, there were events that occurred that are worthy of outrage. I can see value in the step backward from those emotions so that they don't completely blind one. But I think that the opposite, suppression of legitimate outrage, is also unhealthy.
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@Alrah said
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@Iaomai said
"You make some valid points. Any technologically advanced culture coming in would have ultimately done the same. It's just the way of things."I'm not sure why you both think technological advancement is the issue...?
In the old world, there had been several plagues that swept through Europe as a direct consequence of domesticating cattle and fowl. The Europeans developed resistance to disease from cattle. Meanwhile - the Native Americans didn't domesticate animals and so didn't suffer plagues (smart people). However - when the settlers came to America they spread the plagues and it was these diseases that killed off 90% if the Native population.
Keeping chickens is hardly a technological advancement.
After that, the superstitous settlers (ignorant about medicine) saw the Indians dying and said "God wants us to have this land!" - which provided the impudous to persecute the 10% of the remaining Native people.
Chickens and diseases gotten from domesticated animals won the west for the settlers - not techno advancement. America was ultimately won... by the power of a sick chicken! I think you should put one on the flag.
Added: I almost forgot the other factor...beards of course! Facial hair won South America.
"93,
Alrah, I consider that advancement the key, because neither group knew how plagues spread. The thing I'm advocating is doing what they did when the Vikings came that one time- not let them stay [Well, except for a few groups, but it's hard to get rid of adopted family].
Beyond that, though, non-domestication is the opposite of smart. Well, that isn't to say there were no domesticated animals, but comparatively [The Americas had a few animals like this]. I'm not saying it would even have protected them from disease [After all, the groups were separated by quite a bit. Any resistances the Natives had would have been useless- putting us back where we are now.] , rather it would have just been the foundations of a more viable long-term society.
The disease issue sucks, yes, but it was bound to happen. The Europeans and the Natives were both clueless about the nature of illness, so you can't really blame either group for it. But, that being said, looking at it historically, Europe NEEDED those plagues. Pay attention to the economy during plagues. The sudden and rapid deaths of large numbers of people spurred economic development closer to the modern. I could hardly call it a bad, or dumb, thing- rather a tragedy that made things better. Except Beak Doctors. Nope.
XD. Basically, I'm arguing for the Natives should having had the desire to grow beyond the Tribal structure [Well, the whole nomadic/land liver thing that it was in most places]. It obviously didn't happen too late, and that's a shame- but I'm not willing to give them a pity card for losing a conflict that for the most part they signed up to do. If I really need to spell it out, what would earn the pity card is what happened very early into the contact- when the Europeans made it very clear they were not friendly. After that, any down fall is about on par with them not forcing their problem away.
XD, in summation- Had the Natives advanced in certain directions, they could have conceivably not had lost so much to plague, resulting in an increased ability to fend off the Europeans.
I agree Iaomai. Moral outrage has it's place. I just happen to feel this is not it, citing how much better I like living with air conditioning and medicine than I do longhouses and herbalism.
93 93/93
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93,
Alrah, I know exactly what domestication brought with it. I don't know if you were trying to backhandedly call me ignorant, but I would say I'm far from it.
Your example is flawed, however, as it isn't really taking into consideration the climatological reasons for doing so [Again, why not share ALL the data as opposed to cherry picking results?]. Was it smart to live in the same proximity? No [Well, in the crucible of history, it was, but at the time, not so much]. Was it better than the lack of those populations? Well, success is my proof.
To bring it even further, what about all the other societies in the East that domesticated? What was the excuse in the West? Even the Bedouins did cattle domestication, and even advanced beyond the Natives, despite having a far less forgiving environment. Notice a commonality?
However, I don't really think it's relevant- I'm not sure why you brought it up- having a chicken doesn't protect you from the diseases brought by other populations. My point was that by being able to fend off the Europeans, there would be no foothold for disease [Which is a side effect, not the reason, mind you. Disease was not really understood. The actual reason possible at the time would have been to prevent these new invaders from doing what they made clear they wanted to do.]
"Malnarcissist, you use the mostly sweeping terms and false logic I've heard in awhile. Just sayin'."
Er, that's because those sweeping terms apply. If you think saying humans tend to have two legs is too general, I am sorry, but that is not a problem I am qualified to help with.
I'm also not using logic [Indeed, logic is not really suitable for this, a I'm not trying to give proofs to an argument]- I am simply conveying observations. If you don't like it that the American Indian got was it was asking for, then I'm sorry- but the simple fact is instead of TRYING they gave up. So far as I can tell, I am the only one who has used real world examples outside of "Grr. People were mean, so I need to scapegoat a feature"
Look, as far as I can tell you know more about The Early American Culture, and that's fine. However, historically, ethically, and even in a strange sense 'morally' [I do not like that word, take it to mean what you want, I'm explaining] wrong. The only reason you've contained to reply is because you are outraged that I am saying it wasn't that big of a loss. If you care to show me what the Native People gained from deciding to never step out of the bronze age, then do so.
"... and perhaps you're not aware that the European practices of yesterday (in the name of advancement?) has us in an environmental crisis? I know some people don't see it, but that would require looking."
Facepalm Read something that doesn't have a Moon Crescent, or involve the words "The strength of American Indian Culture." Today we know that the Native Americans [And other Tribal groups outside of the Americas, even, but that is irrelevant] don't really care about the environment beyond how it lets them continue to exist. Look to South america and specifically at what the larger groups had written about. The only place you can really claim pastoralism is in the South West of North america, but oftentimes that was the bloodiest area.
Beyond that, so what if the environment is ruined? Part of growing up is taking responsibility for the actions you commit. If one of those actions is ruining the ecology [Which won't happen. Frankly, the fear is over blown. And no, I am not saying it isn't happening, rather I am calling it a side effect of rapid industrialization] permanently, then so be it. We have every chance of stopping it, and if we don't, we can apply the same sentiment I am expressing about the American Indians to the Modern World. I'm not doing this because I have some kind of animosity, but rather I'd blame any one who decides that they can try to ignore a problem.
93 93/93
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Oh, I like that. That clarifies. I think there is that common denominator/view here in California. I'll ask, perhaps there is more. Birds, so telling...
Thanks for bringing this back into perspective, Alrah. I am a psych major so these perspectives (and oppositions) give me meat and I like to drive it a little bit.
When I speak of magic and "the method of science - the aim of religion", I want to anchor in some values that are already roaming around the intention of this motto. That's my point to this in the first place. Common western magic misses some things, that are, or could be, useful, practical, and enlightening. Carl Jung addresses this as pointed out to me recently by a fellow teacher and Thelemite. It seems to me that in some sense, Thelema strives to achieve a goal that was already practiced here prior to contact. I was picking up on this more so when looking over Liber Librae and can pick out specifics if need be. But also in my Native Studies in Ecology. To quote:
Native Science: Natural Laws of Interdependence
"(Gregory) Cajete examines the multiple levels of meaning that inform Native astronomy, cosmology, psychology, agriculture, and the healing arts. Unlike the western scientific method, native thinking does not isolate an object or phenomenon in order to understand it, but perceives it in terms of relationship. An understanding of the relationships that bind together natural forces and all forms of life has been fundamental to the ability of indigenous peoples to live for millennia in spiritual and physical harmony with the land. It is clear that the first peoples offer perspectives that can help us work toward solutions at this time of global environmental crisis".
Also, I find that formal education at the university level makes the great work meaningful to our brethren and the people to come. From an indigenous worldview, the holistic approach rather than (or in conjunct) a linear perspective offers a rounded experience that meets the aim of religion and the method of science. What's old is new again. When we say, "love is the law", "law" has it's roots in nature, the natural world. Something that was not rooted in western science and a goal to understand amongst occultists. But by today's standards and common knowledge, these aren't so hidden. Plus, the old time magicians weren't aware of indigenous values and perspectives. This is all kind of new some how.
I find systems of attainment a lot of fun to learn and understand. That is why I am making these points and appreciate any input that builds that bridge.
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I hope this thread gets moved to OFF TOPIC, as it is way off topic and has nothing to do with magick.
Although I am not a member of the TOT of the COT, I do respect the fact that these forums are tools for students and should be treated as such.
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True, however, this is a forum of a Thelemic organization and when I last checked this thread the debate had nothing to do with thelema except brothers and sisters fighting (debating). Rather than attempt to prove my point, I'm stepping off this thread so that it does not veer any further off course.
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I have no issue with that. I've actually gained a lot of insight and tools from this conversation.
It's odd that Thelema is so narrowly defined for some. It almost feels abrasive, strict and rigid. I don't see it or experience it that way in the least off the forums and in the midst of practitioners and seasoned magicians.
But again, I'm not attached. Thank you on both ends for the relay!
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@Alrah said
"Well - good point. Perhaps we should get back to the Magick.
In Thelema we have the fundemental concept of the Spiral force, and we can learn to project a spiral force out into the universe to cause changes in conformity with our magical Will, or it can be invoked. The way the spiral force builds power can be understood by watching tornadoes or dust devils, observing and listening to instruments made from natural object like Conch Shells or certain horns, watching the smoke and the flames of fire.
It would be interesting to know the Native American perspective about this sort of thing."
It's the same. It's an art. The study of the cosmos and the elements and all living things are integral to one another and is a mirror of the group consciousness. It's not only magic, but basic guidelines for the human experience and survival of the families and neighboring tribes who also utilize the same principals for living. These are basic teachings and are taught from birth, which is not true for many or most non-natives. I'm not versed enough in Eastern traditions to make any comment, but certainly I teach my child these values from a native and Thelemic perspective.
Essentially all things are relative to ones experience. "Relative" being an important key from this worldview; in relation to, relative to, being related to.
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@Alrah said
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@malnarcissis said
"93,Alrah, I know exactly what domestication brought with it. I don't know if you were trying to backhandedly call me ignorant, but I would say I'm far from it."
Most people don't realise in what kind of fashion domestication started in Europe Mal. It's something I only learned at uni. Don't be so sensitive!
alrah smirks
You know - you ought to review whether the resuting paranoia is worth all the insults you were flinging around yesterday. They didn't bother me at all, but you seem a little sensitive today.
"Your example is flawed, however, as it isn't really taking into consideration the climatological reasons for doing so "
I wasn't intending to give chapter and verse on European History. Just adding a bit of info to the overall conversation...
Chill."
93,
Er. What paranoia? You expressed something that qualifies as common knowledge, as if it were some topic that wasn't well known. I was clarifying for myself whether or not you were attempting to say something else. If not, I'm sorry. [Also, let's just avoid bringing up other topics. I've already derailed this thread enough, and am wondering why I keep getting addressed.]
"It's odd that Thelema is so narrowly defined for some. It almost feels abrasive, strict and rigid. I don't see it or experience it that way in the least off the forums and in the midst of practitioners and seasoned magicians. "
Er, if that is a reference to me, I would recomend actually reading what it is I have been saying, as opposed to trying to sound pompous.
93 93/93
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Love the spiral! A g.f. just got the triple spirals tatted on her wrists. Pretty! I dance with hoops (yah, hoola hoops) and when I teach workshops I always anchor in the vortex spiral nature prior to doing what we called "sustained spin", a move that is ecstatic and entrancing, much like the Sufi dervish.
I just re-watched Alan Moores video regarding magic and shamanism because that is apparently where I am headed with all this. The problem might not seem problematic to most, but it is in the word "shaman". That is different than where I want to go with this since most "neo-shamans" are not indigenous nor have the actual rearing a medicine person has. Much like a magician, it takes years of guidance, theory, and practice to reach the grade authentically.
I like this a lot though: