Detailed questions on the Klippot
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@atlantis said
"5) This is a question where you will find different perspectives within different traditions. Originally, Kenneth Grant proposed that one should work with the Sephiroth first, reach the HGA and achieve the contact and communication, proceed up to Daath and then do the Qliphothic Initiation guarded by the Sephirothic HGA. He then more and more came to suggest another possibility: the Qliphothic Initiation need not be postponed. It can be done directly through a secret gate that he talks about in Hecates Fountain, which is a book that together with Nightside of Eden most clearly describes his Qliphotic initiatory ideas. He is quite clear about the fact that what he calls "The Dark Angel" needs to be merged with the HGA in such a way that the HGA does not get the "upper hand".
Beside the Typhonian Order, the Dragon Rouge is the order that has worked most with the Qliphoth, and here one of the first major goals is to reach the level of Thagirion where one is to merge with what is called "The Daimon", which is the HGA and the Beast, the Angel and the Shadow, combined into one entity in "dispute" with itself. It is an entity which does not make the qliphotic aspects less wild, but incorporates the qliphotic aspects in their total destructive capacity. "So do you think one should develop each respective Sephiroth/Qlipha simultaneously? For example one would work with both Yesod and Gamaliel and then work on both Hod and Samael etc, and arrive to the HGA and Daimon at the same time? Or should one first try to attain contact with the "angel" or whatever tree they feel more inclined towards and then take it from there?
I've also been thinking whether working with both the Sephiroth and the Qlipha simultaneously would bring balance or if they would cancel each other out like mixing matter and anti-matter?
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Infernal Seraph: That is the idea of the Dragon Rouge and that idea can also be found in the later works by Kenneth Grant.
The Daimon includes the HGA. The HGA does not include the Daimon.
Working with the Qliphoth and Sephiroth is not some kind of quest to bring balance between them. Balance is related to the Sephiroth. The Qliphothic Initiation is not some kind of project to passify the Sitra Ahra or shut it out - it is about entering it step by step and being illumined by it.
This does not mean that the adept of the Left Hand Path constantly is walking around with open gates to the Sitra Ahra. Mankind is a light being. Initiation is both learning to get out, and learning how to get back. It is a process of acquiring certain keys to open up unknown vistas, and then when getting back making sure to shut those doors so that they do not wreak havoc in the daily life of the magician. That being said: that does not mean that the magician in his ordinary life will not change. She must be guided by that understanding acquired when she opens up those vistas.
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@atlantis said
"1) Yes. But then, the qabalistic interpretations on the qliphoth and the sitra ahra varies from author to author, tradition to tradition.
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In one interpretation, yes. Not in all. In some interpretations the Qliphoth is the most original aspect of God. The Thoughtless Light.
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Yes. I recommend you read Thomas Karlssons book Qabalah, Qliphoth and Goetic Magic for more on this subject. And Johnny Jackbssons article on the Grand Grimoire in Scarlet Imprints book "Diabolical" for more information on how grimoire-magic can be related to the Qliphotic Initiation.
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The Qliphotic Initiation generally acts from the idea that mankind is a being living in a specific remote aspect of reality: malkuth. And that to be able to reach illumination man needs to become initiated in all aspects of reality: all sephiras and qliphas. There can be no shutting out of the darkness from a Left Hand Path perspective.
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This is a question where you will find different perspectives within different traditions. Originally, Kenneth Grant proposed that one should work with the Sephiroth first, reach the HGA and achieve the contact and communication, proceed up to Daath and then do the Qliphothic Initiation guarded by the Sephirothic HGA. He then more and more came to suggest another possibility: the Qliphothic Initiation need not be postponed. It can be done directly through a secret gate that he talks about in Hecates Fountain, which is a book that together with Nightside of Eden most clearly describes his Qliphotic initiatory ideas. He is quite clear about the fact that what he calls "The Dark Angel" needs to be merged with the HGA in such a way that the HGA does not get the "upper hand".
Beside the Typhonian Order, the Dragon Rouge is the order that has worked most with the Qliphoth, and here one of the first major goals is to reach the level of Thagirion where one is to merge with what is called "The Daimon", which is the HGA and the Beast, the Angel and the Shadow, combined into one entity in "dispute" with itself. It is an entity which does not make the qliphotic aspects less wild, but incorporates the qliphotic aspects in their total destructive capacity.
This is a quite different approach than the classical abrameline one, where the darkness is sought to be controlled, conquered and enslaved.
Links to books the books mentioned:
ajnabound.com
www.scarletimprint.com/diabolical.htm"Thanks for that feedback.
I don’t see how it is possible to “work” with the Klippot. My contact with these energies came about inadvertently – I would describe it as pure venom or poison and it effectively immobilized me and killed off my former identity, leaving behind a shell of an old self. I literally had to walk away from 15 years of my life.
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@he atlas itch said
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@atlantis said
"I don’t see how it is possible to “work” with the Klippot. My contact with these energies came about inadvertently – I would describe it as pure venom or poison and it effectively immobilized me and killed off my former identity, leaving behind a shell of an old self. I literally had to walk away from 15 years of my life."
"They are simply another layer of the Divine Hierarchy of a Sephirah etc. Once one has reasonable mastery of sojourning nonmaterial realms, one is able to make direct contact.
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""I don’t see how it is possible to “work” with the Klippot. My contact with these energies came about inadvertently – I would describe it as pure venom or poison and it effectively immobilized me and killed off my former identity, leaving behind a shell of an old self. I literally had to walk away from 15 years of my life.""
This is done by entering the Qliphas and working with them in an alchemical way. One is also to address the initiatory demonguides in the specific Qliphas.
The Samael Qliphah (the Poison of God) is the Qliphah of Hod and it is highly related to ego-loss. It is a tremendously destructive Qliphah and it must be worked in a disciplined way. It is very important here to really get access to the keys and not just get lost in this labyrinth.
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@he atlas itch said
"1. Are not the Klippot very different from the Sitra Achra – the latter being definitely non-anthropomorphic and referring to destructive forces of older destroyed worlds while the Klippot still relate somehow to the universe of mankind?
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Are the Klippot energetic shards formed from the shattering of primordial Man, Adam Qadmon? (Rabbi Luria seems to suggest this...)
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Do the 10 Klippot correspond in any way to the demonic entities listed in the Goetia or Abramelin?
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If the Klippot are shards from the shattering of Adam Qadmon, does the adept’s act of swearing their allegiance to the HGA constitute a form of tikkun, a slow piecing back together of Adam Qadmon?
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Once the demons swear their allegiance to the HGA, do they change from being perceived as “evil” to “good”? (I''m very interested in the transformation that occurs via this act)"
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The Qliphoth, in my understanding, represent the force of a given Sephiroth that is out of balance, such as the extreme severity of Geburah when not balanced by Chesed or the passivity of the mercy of Chesed when not balanced by Geburah. It is important to keep in mind that the Tree of Life is a harmonious system. Also, the Qkiphoth are not merely the opposite of a given Sephera or it's flipside. The term Sitra Achra can be taken to mean many things, the other side of what?
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I suppose that would be the case if you are a Qabalist of the Lurianic school.
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No, the entities in the Goetia and the Abramelin are considered "infernals" and are from a much different cosmological structure than that of the Tree of Life. In the cosmology of many of the grimoires there are infernal, Terrestrial and Aerial spirits. The Tree of Life does not conform to this structure. That is not to say that you can't fit Goetic and Abramelin spirits onto a given part of the diagram somewhere somehow.
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I would certainly hope so yes, if that's your cosmology/qabalah.
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So far concerns the Law of Thelema, yes. A Christian magician may have other ideas.
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Sure. That can be one way of looking at it. And it has its merits from a practical viewpoint. Thus: to be able to expand the horizons from the limiting aspects of the Sephiras, the Qliphas is used. The descent into the Qliphas becomes a method of initiation.
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Indeed. Most of these entities are more closely connected to the Qliphas. Although some also provide initiation on how to use the Sephiras. Those that do not are quite dangerous to work with.
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@atlantis said
"3. Indeed. Most of these entities are more closely connected to the Qliphas. Although some also provide initiation on how to use the Sephiras. Those that do not are quite dangerous to work with."
My experience with spirits from the Goetia causes me to disagree about connecting them with the qliphot. I think that they are simply a very "low" order of spirits. Somewhere just above elementals, so much to say, that they(at least the ones I have dealt with) have a "self-awareness." I also feel think that their nature reflects the mind of the magician, if you see muck you get muck with this order. I have never had to threaten with punishment evoking these beings, probably because I did a lot of alchemical work to elevate myself MONTHS prior to the evocation, so naturally when I called them they responded as though their God had called (and he did!).
I confess I haven't worked with ALL of them but my experience tells me that it would not be to difficult to accomplish (although I don't see much reason to right now). According to Crowley some spirits only respond to curses, I think I gather what that means because a Goetic that I work with seems to only get the job done if I start to lose my temper (ie. lost packages, short paychecks, troubles at work etc.) then suddenly BANG! I get what I want and their seemed to be no reason to get upset in the first place
! (generally, this is followed by some sort of impulsive insane laughter) -
If you are not contacting them to make alliances, it can be quite wise to protect yourself in the way that works best. IE: if one is not working with the Left Hand Path.
These demons might seem quite un-initiatory in the beginning when one browse through their descriptions. But even the descriptions sometimes can be quite clear about the initiatory value of some of them, quite plainly. See for instance Paimon, a personal favorite.A demon which at face value seems to be about getting laid or making people undress is not only able to do such things; they often have a good understanding of sexuality, and can be great mentors in sexual alchemy - an example of the depth of these descriptions.
The Goetic demons can indeed do the described things for the magician - but I think you underestimate their power and their own interests.
For the adept of the Left Hand Path (by which I mean an adept who works with the Left hand aswell - not trying to subordinate it or shunning it) the Goetic entities are possible alliance partners - they can initiate the adept into many aspects of the trees.
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Please re-read what I wrote:
@TheSilent1 said
" ...I did a lot of alchemical work to elevate myself MONTHS prior to the evocation, so naturally when I called them they responded as though their God had called (and he did!). "
I initiated myself into their sphere at the highest level, then I brought the light down to them. The compact formed at that level was simple: "Aide me in my work, provide what I need to complete what I work (based upon the powers of the spirit), do so without deception and trickery, and perform all of these matters in accordance to the laws of Karma, etc.. do this and I as I elevate myself I will take you with me." (Or something like that, I think that pretty much sums up the idea.)
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The difference between working with them from a RHP perspective (which you seem to be doing) is that doing that means that you have already decided that the gnosis of the left emanations is to be stayed away from.
The AbraMelin is a good example of this. The idea that you are supposed to meet and subdue, definately not open up to and be initiatiated by, these forces.That is quite different than the Left Hand Path. Of course, these demons could be of aid for doing such things as finding a lost wallet as a small favor to you. But that is quite different than meeting these forces in a way where one does not try to sudbue them with for instance the sun of Tiphareth. The adept only climbing the tree of life and not receiving initiation into the tree of knowledge may have the idea that he is superior to these spirits and see them as insignificant. That is however not strange; what is outside of the horizon when you have the experience that the place where you are standing right now is important, what lies beyond the horizon is just not interesting.
I am not saying either is better. I am saying there is more to this particular cake than the first layer.
Ps: In just the same way as you on the street would pass by a secret chief and not notice it, maybe ask her to spare some change for your busticket and afterwards think: "Oh, everything runs so smoothly in my life."
Sure, the secret chief might help you with that, but that says nothing about what she might be able to do for you had you asked and been ready for something else.
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This nonsense about left hand path and right hand path and all that is a bit immature in my opinion. The magician rises straight up, straying neither right nor left. He stands with his feet in the deepest abyss and his head in the highest Heavens.
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I don't see how what I do is either right or left, it is merely a method. My point was simply that there is no evidence to support the spirits of the goetia as being qliphotic, and I also gave a formula by which to deal with them.
The simple fact that I have given something a purpose does not mean that I have subdued it, you are implying that:- the spirit has a will of it's own [which may or may not be true/if true then it's will would certainly be in line with god of it's sphere]
- that I have somehow through force or what not I have made it go against it's will which is NOT THELEMA! [which tells me you don't even see the elegance of the system that I have outlined]
If you feel the need to color techniques as black or white or right or left, well that is your limited paradigm. Honestly, I can't see how you can possibly see the light from the muck of the sewers, but to each their own.
@AEternitas1 said
"This nonsense about left hand path and right hand path and all that is a bit immature in my opinion. The magician rises straight up, straying neither right nor left. He stands with his feet in the deepest abyss and his head in the highest Heavens."
You are absolutely right, and that is what I am trying to say without saying it.
*edit for typo and spacing to be more readible
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I also disagree with the stance that basically says if you approach and deal with a spirit in this fashion it is left hand path and in that fashion it is right hand path which is usually followed by the assertion from either party that by focusing on one path they deny the other which is in itself ironic. I remember a similar way of thinking in which making left hand turns and circumambulations was said to refer to the left hand path, while right hand deosil movements were right hand path which isn't necessarily the case.
TO deal with the spirits in one fasion may be true at one level of initiation while a completely different approach may be called for in another. The actions of the magician and their intentions will determine right hand from left hand path or what have you, how one interacts with a spirit during evocation or which way they turn in a ceremony won't decide that. -
I'm a follower of the Right Hand Doesn't Know what the Left Hand's Doing path.
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"This nonsense about left hand path and right hand path and all that is a bit immature in my opinion. The magician rises straight up, straying neither right nor left. He stands with his feet in the deepest abyss and his head in the highest Heavens."
I'm not here to stir up a hornet's nest, but I wouldn't feel right if I didn't post this. It may be that it is a bit immature to chide another honest seeker's efforts, their work and their paradigm, etc. I have no idea what is right or wrong here, but I think the above quote was rude and un-Thelemic. The work of order such as Dragon Rouge might not be for me, but it certainly isn't immature or insignificant.
Also, it might be that a purely mystical path would lead one straight up the tree without straying, but that a magicians path (at least a magician of the A.'.A.'.) necessarily takes detours from the middle pillar, for are not "the Practicus and Philosophus ... counseled in Liber 185 not to attempt to withdraw from (the order)," but that they "persevere at least to the point of equilibrating themselves, again on the middle pilllar"? Indeed it may be that the concept of standing not only with one's head in the heavens and ones feet in the abyss includes straying at times from the middle pillar.
"I'm a follower of the Right Hand Doesn't Know what the Left Hand's Doing path."
Question- if we don't know what the Left Hand Path is about, how can we know why we are followers of the RHP, and avoid the age old trap of blind dogma?
93 93/93
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hello again. i first developed an interest in qliphotic meanderings a few years ago when i realized, or noticed, that in my own personal experience, the greatest instances of personal growth and self improvement had occurred after and/or seemingly in response to the greatest trials i have faced in life, trials which upon inspection appear to be related to encounters with the darkest ugliest evasive parts of my own nature.
in some traditions typhon and/or set are considered, much like harpocrates, as aspects of horus. in my opinion my spiritual and more "religious" attitudes began to align more with this darker aspect of godhead while remaining purely thelemic. in any case i go on.
but my question is this: am i kidding myself, or simply mistaken, or somehow deceived, etc, as to what is percolating in my head? if the qliphoth are forms, outdated, overused, and no longer useful, what, if anything can they teach us? if qliphoth are no loner useful, why do we even mark their existence? after all we create nothing that is not god (UNTO NU HALLELUIA), so why not create existence without qliphoth? if the qliphoth are not longer useful, then they can't offer any initiation thats worthwhile, or can they? and if so, or if not, what delusions are we under to seek any new understanding from them?
if nothing else i think we can agree that this thread has been going in an attempt to gain more understanding about "them," i.e us.
93 93/93.
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2. Are the Klippot energetic shards formed from the shattering of primordial Man, Adam Qadmon? (Rabbi Luria seems to suggest this...)That's a nice legend; but, even if I said a decisive "Yes," would that tell us anything useful? I think not.
- If the Klippot are shards from the shattering of Adam Qadmon, does the adept’s act of swearing their allegiance to the HGA constitute a form of tikkun, a slow piecing back together of Adam Qadmon?"
I'm not sure how your response to the question above is followed by point four. If it is not useful to give a decisive answer, even from a personal point of view, then what is the purpose of raising the question in point four which can also be defined as a 'legend'? To put it more generally, how can we, as students of the 'mysteries' for want of a better word, talk usefully of such things? Kabbalists argue that they do not name that which they have not experienced, yet themselves have to use attributions that are often interpreted physically or corporeally, which
is to transgress one of the fundamental tenets of Kabbalah. For example, the Baal Shem Tov said that he who
says that there is another power in the world, namely Klipot(shells) is in a state of "serving other gods". It is not necessarily the thought of heresy that is the transgression, but if he thinks there is another authority and force apart from the Creator, by that he is committing a transgression.This may, in part, answer your question raised in point five, which is something that interests me deeply.
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@AEternitas1 said
"This nonsense about left hand path and right hand path and all that is a bit immature in my opinion. The magician rises straight up, straying neither right nor left. He stands with his feet in the deepest abyss and his head in the highest Heavens."
Well, certainly not all magicians do. There are those which when they feel the hellfire under their feet try to banish it. The reason why I talk about the Left Hand Path (which is a classic concept of tantra) is that it points to the possibility of not only working with the Right hand. Grant makes it quite clear that Crowley worked with the Left Hand Path, even though he seldom wrote about the dark mysteries. Liber 333 and 231 are quite qliphothic though!
@TheSilent1 said
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I don't see how what I do is either right or left, it is merely a method. My point was simply that there is no evidence to support the spirits of the goetia as being qliphotic, and I also gave a formula by which to deal with them. The simple fact that I have given something a purpose does not mean that I have subdued it, you are implying that:- the spirit has a will of it's own [which may or may not be true/if true then it's will would certainly be in line with god of it's sphere]
- that I have somehow through force or what not I have made it go against it's will which is NOT THELEMA! [which tells me you don't even see the elegance of the system that I have outlined]
If you feel the need to color techniques as black or white or right or left, well that is your limited paradigm. Honestly, I can't see how you can possibly see the light from the muck of the sewers, but to each their own.
"This seems to become a discussion of vocabularly. Something I quite uninterested in. Yes, through mine and alot of my friends research in goetic magic I think it is quite clear that these entities (as I mainly prefer to call them) have will and some of them are interested in aiding the adept in the initiatory work. I can only make a very simple evaluation of what you describe and notice they they seem to be quite close to what I see from people that work with the goetic entities in a way that could be more beneficial from an initiatory perspective: where the central theme is the building up of alliances with them so that they can guide the adept into the Qliphothic mysteries.
I see nothing "wrong" in approaching the spirits of the goetia from the perspective that they can help with mundane things.
I also see nothing "wrong" in the concept of shutting out and banishing the darkness. I just note that there is a possibility of doing something else. This is generally called the Left Hand Path. There is no moral or idea of higher/better, lower/not good in this. Just like I would call a chair a chair and a table a table or talk about a "thai" or "mexican" kind of food. This makes discussions easier generally. Of course there are nuances. We live in a global world after all filled of individuals. Some people like to label what they do as "Thelema", for different reasons. I mainly agree with Crowleys relation to words that he describes in Liber 333. -
Atlantis wrote:
"Well, certainly not all magicians do. There are those which when they feel the hellfire under their feet try to banish it. The reason why I talk about the Left Hand Path (which is a classic concept of tantra) is that it points to the possibility of not only working with the Right hand. Grant makes it quite clear that Crowley worked with the Left Hand Path, even though he seldom wrote about the dark mysteries. Liber 333 and 231 are quite qliphothic though! "
The point is that all magical working is essentially involves klipot until the ego is completely transecended. The irony is that many would-be magicians seek initiation into the very sphere they already operate in and it is unikely that very few make it out of that domain.
The LHP is to be found in tantra, but is represents a very small part of the vast corpus of tantric material in classical Indian philosophy.