Intoxication and mystical/spiritual experience
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93 all.
The topic title sounds pretty broad, but I actually have a specific question.
I have noticed that the vast majority of my more important spiritual experiences have occurred while intoxicated in some sense.
Several occurred while significantly drunk, and several very important ones occurred in the aftermath of an otherwise ordinary (but fairly strong) orgasm - all of which occurred after masturbation (i.e. not with a partner). (Actually, now thinking about it, I think the majority of them occurred after a self-manifested orgasm, but I was also drunk for several of them.)
I don't remember anything spiritually-significant occurring while I was high on any drug (other than alcohol), nor have I engaged any non-OTC drug in quite awhile.
The spiritual experiences in question happened before I had much experience with mysticism or magick. The states of intoxication/altered consciousness, however, weren't remarkable in and of themselves; the orgasms in question weren't incredible, and the drunken states involved weren't really notable.
In fact, nothing was really notable except for the experiences and how unexpected they were.
As far as I can remember, they all occurred unexpectedly. That is, I would orgasm, and try to lose myself in it and drift in the bliss for awhile (as is typical), and suddenly, while I was drifting, I would be presented, mentally, with a proposition. The earliest one I remember was the opportunity to consciously dedicate myself to following my Will - this occurred early in 2010. Finding words to describe it is nearly impossible. It's like suddenly realizing you're on the phone with someone and they start talking to you, surprising you but not frightening you, because they sound familiar.
Is this track record unusual or questionable? FWIW, the accuracy and coherence of things that occurred during these states seems to be very high compared to more or less everything else I've experienced, and they were also very unexpected.
93, 93/93
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@Alrah said
"Well spotted about the coherence thing. If your HGA is in the house you don't loose coherence even when you drink alot."
I rarely say or do things that I regret later when drunk - I have a very high degree of self-control now with it (which came from years and years as a teenager of pushing the limits with alcohol and getting so familiar with it).
I was just wondering if it was unusual to have the vast majority of one's personal, spiritual experiences occurring during states of varying intoxication.
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Sex, drugs, and rock and roll are an ancient trinity of methods for "loosening the girders" as Alrah says.
I think they're particularly useful for uptight people with a high level of impulse control (like me, for the longest time), because the girders are on so tight.
Other than the issues of impaired judgment, etc., the temptation to be wary of is getting attached to the 'effect' of feeling the energy for it's own sake.
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Hmm,
Interesting experience. I could share a few experiences with drugs and alcohol that didn't end nearly as pretty as yours-so i wont. I think the daily meditation, something i hardly, if ever, do kept you from flying to low with the alcohol use.
Regarding Chemognosis,
Prior to my last, most recent yearlong episode, I was drug and alcohol free for a couple of years and towards the end found myself voraciously scowering the Liber AL and Liber Aleph in a seedy motel room in Carlsbad, New Mexico. Some one was cultivating the Arabian Grass nearby so i sat under a bridge with a couple of travelers and partook. Less than an hour later I wrote a small tractate entitled, "The Son of Man in the Mirror" In which i distinctly recall hearing Crowley speak.
Later i realized i was being initiated into some mysterious darker aspect of my flowery, everything's peachy, spiritual understanding. Where terms like ABRAHADABRA and phrases like 'the water which conformeth perfectly' took on menacing, new, proportions. My life hasn't been the same since and that was two years ago...
In closing anchors are a good thing...
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I can't say I have had experiences quite like what you've described. But I have some experience with drugs and 'mystical experiences.' I can sum up my attitude by referencing a few ideas and experiences.
I started drinking in my teens, and pretty much have gone at it ever since. I used to think I accessed a deeper reality when I was drunk, but as I get older I have come to a number of other conclusions:
Drinking is for the young, people with a super-abundance of energy who can still manage to rise to new heights despite the general effect of alcohol to suppress the system. For years and years drinking made me feel as though I had been given more energy. Apart from some added calories, this was just an illusion. But the fact remains, I did have the energy, and this was key for my being able to propel myself to some higher place after I lost my usual inhibitions—wrong word, actually I wasn't very inhibited, I was leaden. So alcohol was a way to overcome the dull hard face of my reality.
I still drink, but a lot less, and only because I like to get a little tipsy and feel I have blown off all my responsibilities at the end of the day. I don't think I am capable of the same kind of expansion I experienced when I was young. Too much alcohol these days only makes me more leaden.
Now I'm trying to remember any revelations that has stayed with me as a result of drinking and I can't remember a single one. By contrast, when I was in art school, I was high for several days on psilocybin mushrooms, an experience that culminated in a vision of my life up to the moment of the vision. I saw, as clear as clear, how I had never acted outside of a very narrow and limited psychology based on need and fear. My authenticity was locked deep within me, far out of my reach. That understanding has stayed with me for more than thirty years, as fresh today as it was then. A bit mellowed by the years, but just as valid—even this post is rooted principally in that same psychology. I calculate, and I jerk—hit the submit button and it is done.
The test of time is a big one for me when I consider the validity of experiences I have had in connection with drugs. If a 'revelation' lasts, and if it continues to be easy—when I don't have try to believe something I think I learned. Then I tend to accept those experiences as more real than this otherwise "petty pace."
love and will
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@Frater Aster Lux said
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Most the mystical experiences I have had were in conjunction with sex, music, alcohol, or in the midst of a drug induced trance. Sometimes with the intention of producing this experience, but sometimes it has randomly seemed thrust upon me."I have had far less success with trying to produce experiences compared to those that were just thrust upon me, seemingly randomly.
@Frater Aster Lux said
"Ash, have you read energized enthusiasm? (I know this may sound like a dumb question, just wondering)"
I think so, but it's been awhile. I'll have to re-read it. Thank you for the suggestion.
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as i've grown older, my challenge hasn't been to experience mystical experiences while intoxicated. i've had ample of that and it seems like a fairly normal part of the path, or many paths. those experiences have laid out the foundations (albeit, tossed out there in space without a net often) to find the same experiences while sober (use term loosely). i think the film "dmt: the spirit molecule" has some pertinent and valid points regarding the intoxicated mystical experiences.
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@anistara said
"as i've grown older, my challenge hasn't been to experience mystical experiences while intoxicated."
I'm picking out this one thought as an introduction to another set of ideas.
IMHO, as far as drugs helping or promoting serious spiritual progress, we aren't there yet. Even LSD, as much as it opens doors, isn't the deal.
Maybe something will be found in nature, but I suspect it will probably come out of a laboratory when it comes. The science of drugs and how they effect the brain, even to the point of rewiring its circuits is in its infancy.
And of course, there is the shadow side of this. If a drug were to turn up that actually promoted a true, mystical type of liberation, it would probably arrive hand in hand with other drugs meant to do just the opposite. Or more likely, the same drug will have the dual potential to either save or damn.
For myself, I take solace from the fact that any real understanding I have ever received under the influence of a drug, except for my 'first' experience with psychedelics, seemed ultimately independent of the drug. I didn't feel, post experience, that the drug was all that important; and subsequent experiences with psychedelics had nothing new to offer me form what I experienced on my initial trip.
I'm trying to make a point and not doing a very good job. The point is this: I distrust any suggestion that drugs make real spiritual work easy. And people who have only experienced drug induced enlightenment are not to be trusted. This next bit comes as a warning, more to myself than anyone else. I'll share it for the sake of the discussion. It goes like this: Anything that makes something easier also erodes technique—the more you do it, the less you can actually do because it reinforces the tendency to do less. It's a slippery slope that destroys character.
love and will
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Robert, thank you for the posts. I agree that drug-triggered enlightenment is suspect, and am always suspicious of psychonaut mystics.
The thing, though, is that I have only been involved with hallucinogens twice (and one isn't actually a hallucinogen, but I tripped from it):
I tried Salvia once, to little effect beyond head clarity and mood lift, and I was put on Ketamine once in the hospital, on which I tripped, but the experience had nothing to do with mysticism.
The experiences I'm talking about seem to have been more triggered by orgasm - that's the common denominator in all but one case (which was recent and I think is the result of legitimate work, and not the alcohol consumed).
I've also been on Vicodin before (wisdom teeth got yanked), but nothing mystical happened on it (nor did I try to induce anything mystical). I smoked weed for awhile in my teens, but I wouldn't say I had any experiences on that on par with what I've had recently. (I had a few, but they were more emotional in nature and not very spiritual.)
I would much rather have sober mystical experiences, and that's what I'm working toward - as stated, the experiences in question happened unexpectedly.
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Robert, I am one hundred percent in agreement with your comment. Did you by chance look at the link I posted regarding DMT? I mention it because of your comment:
"Maybe something will be found in nature, but I suspect it will probably come out of a laboratory when it comes. The science of drugs and how they effect the brain, even to the point of rewiring its circuits is in its infancy. "
I find it intriguing, but the slippery slope has been seen. But I'm not fully convinced there isn't an element that is the "spirit molecule" due to the documentary.
To me, the mystical experiences I've had give me expectations, which isn't really a good deal. I hope perseverance offers a solution to the issue.
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@anistara said
"Robert, I am one hundred percent in agreement with your comment. Did you by chance look at the link I posted regarding DMT?"
@anistara said
"I find it intriguing, but the slippery slope has been seen. But I'm not fully convinced there isn't an element that is the "spirit molecule" due to the documentary."
I did look at the video, but only after you asked if I looked at it.
I've been aware of the discussion concerning DMT for a long time, and now and then a friend will bring it up. I confess, my disappointment with drugs in general has infected my attitude towards most new things. I haven't sought out DMT. Ecstasy is the last new thing I ever tried, and this only because someone gave it to me as a wedding gift. It was nice.
I'm not sure what to make of the video. It raises many more questions than it purports to answer, not the least of which have to do with the methodology of the researcher. I sound so negative. Still, whether it will be a good thing or a bad thing, I'm totally convinced we have only begun to exploit the potential of drugs—to quote the song: b-b-b-baby you just aint seen nothing yet!
It will be interesting to see how the one biggest objection I can think of will be dealt with—as soon as you eat the cookie, your ass belongs to a chemical. This is probably always the case, but this illusion of control is a comforting illusion regardless. How much more so for people who keep diaries and who are trying to determine the perfect conditions for producing mystical experiences in the first place!
Love and Will
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@Ash said
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The experiences I'm talking about seem to have been more triggered by orgasm - that's the common denominator in all but one case (which was recent and I think is the result of legitimate work, and not the alcohol consumed).
"Obvious question. Have you tried exploring the potential for these experiences without drugs, using just good clean sex, and your mind?
love and will
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@Frater Aster Lux said
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Any one who says these factors aren't just as much a part of our culture as chanting and dancing would be lying. Everything has a proper place.."I did some work with scents last summer. I was amazed to the degree they facilitated my experiences. I guess the only distinction I would generally draw between these aids and the use of a drug is that you usually still have all of your faculties within the environment of a ritual, or a cloud of incense. By contrast, a drug gets much more under your skin, and to a certain extent, you are doomed to go along for the ride wherever the drug might want to take you. You quote the Psychology of Hashish in another of your posts, but I think I remember that Crowley indicated that it was important to still be in control of your metal processes, despite the action of the drug. In other words, a fair degree of success with Dharana should be a prerequisite. Then I would agree with you, it can all be considered the same—chanting, dancing, plumes of benzoin filling the air, and drugs.
love and will
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@RobertAllen said
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@Ash said
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The experiences I'm talking about seem to have been more triggered by orgasm - that's the common denominator in all but one case (which was recent and I think is the result of legitimate work, and not the alcohol consumed).
"Obvious question. Have you tried exploring the potential for these experiences without drugs, using just good clean sex, and your mind?
love and will"
I haven't tried to achieve these experiences - that's the point. They all happened completely unexpectedly, and alcohol was not involved in all of them.
I have never had a spiritual experience when engaging another person in sexual stuff to the point of orgasm, nor have I sought one.
[Edit] I should probably add that I really don't drink very much - a few times a month, at the most, and I have gone months and months completely sober. I have to be in the right kind of mood to enjoy alcohol.
I used to drink a lot in my teens, but that has passed as I have had a lot less leisure time in my life.
I am by no means dependent on or overly involved with alcohol. -
The problem with drugs and alcohol is that they can destroy/replace the Wand and pollute the Cup.
Sexual energy and Intitiation are so intertwined that they really cannot be separated. Some would say they are one and the same.
The ability to experience Initiation through orgasm "by accident" more than once probably means u have trained through this method before;)
- In this rite thou shalt be alone.
-- LIBER STELLAE RUBEAE
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I am fairly new to the board and just now catching up on many older great questions and posts. This is one I would like to divulge a bit of my experience on the matter.
The question to the usefulness/ legitimacy of chemical intoxication within mystical experience is one that seems to meet with such schism of opinions, that it has led me to understand that there simply is no one answer. My personal experience has confirmed that- at least for me. Crowley obviously had no qualms about using intoxicating substances in ritual if this is what the Will desires. Dion Fortune, being a psychologist, seemed a bit more cautious about it.
It is a double edge sword- like a strong wind on a sail- given the right direction and magnitude takes a ship across an ocean, but the wrong direction and magnitude could topple it over. I see intoxicating substances as a lubricant. You want to use them enough to get you going if it helps, but no so much that you are slipping all over the place...
but OK... enough of the analogies. When drugs are used to induce altered states of consciousness, their affects tend to be more long lasting and chronic then when altered states are achieved naturally. This means that if overused, it can be harder to return to mundane focus and may keep the psychic channels opened a bit more than we want them to be. When I was using alcohol heavily in magick, I felt an immense amount of psychic energy- and this was verified by increased clairvoyance- but I had a hard time shutting it off and focusing in the office when it was time to do mundane work for "the man."
It sounds like you use it very seldom, but that does not mean very much because it may be more about how it affects you and your tolerance. For some people, only a drink can cause them to get sucked into any psychic wirl-wind that happens to be passing by at the moment, while others can maintain their centre after a night of binging.
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A mystical experience is a form of intoxication. This state can be induced with or without the use of exterior substance--but as someone once said, "Why don't you try LSD, it's guaranteed."
However, these sorts of things have a way of weeding out the weak and the sickly, psychologically speaking.
But don't take it from me.
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93,
In regard to psychological "safety":
3
DE VITA CORRIGENDAKnow, son, that the true Principle of Self-Control is Liberty. For we are born into a World which is in Bondage to Ideals; to them we are perforce fitted, even as the Enemies to the Bed of Procrustes. Each of us, as he grows, learns Repression of himself and his true Will. "It is a lie, this folly against self": these Words are written in The Book of the Law. So therefore these Passions in ourselves which we understand to be Hindrances are not part of our True Will, but diseased Appetites, manifest in us through false early Training. Thus the Tabus of savage Tribes in such matter as Love constrain that True Love which is born in us; and by this Constraint come ills of Body and Mind. Either the Force of Repression carries it, and creates Neuroses and Insanities; or the Revolt against that Force, breaking forth with Violence, involves Excesses and Extravagances. All these Things are Disorders, and against Nature. Now then learn of me the testimony of History and literature as a great Scroll of Learning. But the Vellum of the Scroll is of Man's Skin, and its Ink of his Heart's Blood.
44
DE SAPIENTIA IN RE SEXUALIConsider Love. Here is a Force destructive and corrupting where by many Men have been lost. Yet without Love Man were not Man. Therefore thine Uncle Richard Wagner made of our Doctrine a musical Fable, wherein we see Amfortas, who yielded himself to Seduction, wounded beyond Healing; Klingsor, who withdraw himself from a like Danger, cast out for ever from the Mountain of Salvation; and Parsifal, who yielded not, able to exercise the true Power of Live, and thereby to perform the Miracle of Redemption. Of this also have I myself written in my Poema called Adonis.** It is the same with Food and Drink, with Exercise, with Learning itself, the Problem is ever to bring the Appetite into right Relation with the Will. Thus thou mayst fast or feast; there is no Rule than that of Balance.** And this Doctrine is of general Acceptation among the better Sort of Men; therefore on thee will I rather impress more carefully the other Part of my Wisdom, namely, the Necessity of extending constantly thy Nature to new Mates upon every Plane of Being, so that thou mayst become the perfect Microcosm, an Image without Flaw of all that is.
-- Liber Aleph vel CXI
Love is the law, love under will.