Intoxication and mystical/spiritual experience
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@Frater Aster Lux said
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Most the mystical experiences I have had were in conjunction with sex, music, alcohol, or in the midst of a drug induced trance. Sometimes with the intention of producing this experience, but sometimes it has randomly seemed thrust upon me."I have had far less success with trying to produce experiences compared to those that were just thrust upon me, seemingly randomly.
@Frater Aster Lux said
"Ash, have you read energized enthusiasm? (I know this may sound like a dumb question, just wondering)"
I think so, but it's been awhile. I'll have to re-read it. Thank you for the suggestion.
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as i've grown older, my challenge hasn't been to experience mystical experiences while intoxicated. i've had ample of that and it seems like a fairly normal part of the path, or many paths. those experiences have laid out the foundations (albeit, tossed out there in space without a net often) to find the same experiences while sober (use term loosely). i think the film "dmt: the spirit molecule" has some pertinent and valid points regarding the intoxicated mystical experiences.
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@anistara said
"as i've grown older, my challenge hasn't been to experience mystical experiences while intoxicated."
I'm picking out this one thought as an introduction to another set of ideas.
IMHO, as far as drugs helping or promoting serious spiritual progress, we aren't there yet. Even LSD, as much as it opens doors, isn't the deal.
Maybe something will be found in nature, but I suspect it will probably come out of a laboratory when it comes. The science of drugs and how they effect the brain, even to the point of rewiring its circuits is in its infancy.
And of course, there is the shadow side of this. If a drug were to turn up that actually promoted a true, mystical type of liberation, it would probably arrive hand in hand with other drugs meant to do just the opposite. Or more likely, the same drug will have the dual potential to either save or damn.
For myself, I take solace from the fact that any real understanding I have ever received under the influence of a drug, except for my 'first' experience with psychedelics, seemed ultimately independent of the drug. I didn't feel, post experience, that the drug was all that important; and subsequent experiences with psychedelics had nothing new to offer me form what I experienced on my initial trip.
I'm trying to make a point and not doing a very good job. The point is this: I distrust any suggestion that drugs make real spiritual work easy. And people who have only experienced drug induced enlightenment are not to be trusted. This next bit comes as a warning, more to myself than anyone else. I'll share it for the sake of the discussion. It goes like this: Anything that makes something easier also erodes technique—the more you do it, the less you can actually do because it reinforces the tendency to do less. It's a slippery slope that destroys character.
love and will
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Robert, thank you for the posts. I agree that drug-triggered enlightenment is suspect, and am always suspicious of psychonaut mystics.
The thing, though, is that I have only been involved with hallucinogens twice (and one isn't actually a hallucinogen, but I tripped from it):
I tried Salvia once, to little effect beyond head clarity and mood lift, and I was put on Ketamine once in the hospital, on which I tripped, but the experience had nothing to do with mysticism.
The experiences I'm talking about seem to have been more triggered by orgasm - that's the common denominator in all but one case (which was recent and I think is the result of legitimate work, and not the alcohol consumed).
I've also been on Vicodin before (wisdom teeth got yanked), but nothing mystical happened on it (nor did I try to induce anything mystical). I smoked weed for awhile in my teens, but I wouldn't say I had any experiences on that on par with what I've had recently. (I had a few, but they were more emotional in nature and not very spiritual.)
I would much rather have sober mystical experiences, and that's what I'm working toward - as stated, the experiences in question happened unexpectedly.
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Robert, I am one hundred percent in agreement with your comment. Did you by chance look at the link I posted regarding DMT? I mention it because of your comment:
"Maybe something will be found in nature, but I suspect it will probably come out of a laboratory when it comes. The science of drugs and how they effect the brain, even to the point of rewiring its circuits is in its infancy. "
I find it intriguing, but the slippery slope has been seen. But I'm not fully convinced there isn't an element that is the "spirit molecule" due to the documentary.
To me, the mystical experiences I've had give me expectations, which isn't really a good deal. I hope perseverance offers a solution to the issue.
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@anistara said
"Robert, I am one hundred percent in agreement with your comment. Did you by chance look at the link I posted regarding DMT?"
@anistara said
"I find it intriguing, but the slippery slope has been seen. But I'm not fully convinced there isn't an element that is the "spirit molecule" due to the documentary."
I did look at the video, but only after you asked if I looked at it.
I've been aware of the discussion concerning DMT for a long time, and now and then a friend will bring it up. I confess, my disappointment with drugs in general has infected my attitude towards most new things. I haven't sought out DMT. Ecstasy is the last new thing I ever tried, and this only because someone gave it to me as a wedding gift. It was nice.
I'm not sure what to make of the video. It raises many more questions than it purports to answer, not the least of which have to do with the methodology of the researcher. I sound so negative. Still, whether it will be a good thing or a bad thing, I'm totally convinced we have only begun to exploit the potential of drugs—to quote the song: b-b-b-baby you just aint seen nothing yet!
It will be interesting to see how the one biggest objection I can think of will be dealt with—as soon as you eat the cookie, your ass belongs to a chemical. This is probably always the case, but this illusion of control is a comforting illusion regardless. How much more so for people who keep diaries and who are trying to determine the perfect conditions for producing mystical experiences in the first place!
Love and Will
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@Ash said
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The experiences I'm talking about seem to have been more triggered by orgasm - that's the common denominator in all but one case (which was recent and I think is the result of legitimate work, and not the alcohol consumed).
"Obvious question. Have you tried exploring the potential for these experiences without drugs, using just good clean sex, and your mind?
love and will
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@Frater Aster Lux said
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Any one who says these factors aren't just as much a part of our culture as chanting and dancing would be lying. Everything has a proper place.."I did some work with scents last summer. I was amazed to the degree they facilitated my experiences. I guess the only distinction I would generally draw between these aids and the use of a drug is that you usually still have all of your faculties within the environment of a ritual, or a cloud of incense. By contrast, a drug gets much more under your skin, and to a certain extent, you are doomed to go along for the ride wherever the drug might want to take you. You quote the Psychology of Hashish in another of your posts, but I think I remember that Crowley indicated that it was important to still be in control of your metal processes, despite the action of the drug. In other words, a fair degree of success with Dharana should be a prerequisite. Then I would agree with you, it can all be considered the same—chanting, dancing, plumes of benzoin filling the air, and drugs.
love and will
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@RobertAllen said
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@Ash said
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The experiences I'm talking about seem to have been more triggered by orgasm - that's the common denominator in all but one case (which was recent and I think is the result of legitimate work, and not the alcohol consumed).
"Obvious question. Have you tried exploring the potential for these experiences without drugs, using just good clean sex, and your mind?
love and will"
I haven't tried to achieve these experiences - that's the point. They all happened completely unexpectedly, and alcohol was not involved in all of them.
I have never had a spiritual experience when engaging another person in sexual stuff to the point of orgasm, nor have I sought one.
[Edit] I should probably add that I really don't drink very much - a few times a month, at the most, and I have gone months and months completely sober. I have to be in the right kind of mood to enjoy alcohol.
I used to drink a lot in my teens, but that has passed as I have had a lot less leisure time in my life.
I am by no means dependent on or overly involved with alcohol. -
The problem with drugs and alcohol is that they can destroy/replace the Wand and pollute the Cup.
Sexual energy and Intitiation are so intertwined that they really cannot be separated. Some would say they are one and the same.
The ability to experience Initiation through orgasm "by accident" more than once probably means u have trained through this method before;)
- In this rite thou shalt be alone.
-- LIBER STELLAE RUBEAE
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I am fairly new to the board and just now catching up on many older great questions and posts. This is one I would like to divulge a bit of my experience on the matter.
The question to the usefulness/ legitimacy of chemical intoxication within mystical experience is one that seems to meet with such schism of opinions, that it has led me to understand that there simply is no one answer. My personal experience has confirmed that- at least for me. Crowley obviously had no qualms about using intoxicating substances in ritual if this is what the Will desires. Dion Fortune, being a psychologist, seemed a bit more cautious about it.
It is a double edge sword- like a strong wind on a sail- given the right direction and magnitude takes a ship across an ocean, but the wrong direction and magnitude could topple it over. I see intoxicating substances as a lubricant. You want to use them enough to get you going if it helps, but no so much that you are slipping all over the place...
but OK... enough of the analogies. When drugs are used to induce altered states of consciousness, their affects tend to be more long lasting and chronic then when altered states are achieved naturally. This means that if overused, it can be harder to return to mundane focus and may keep the psychic channels opened a bit more than we want them to be. When I was using alcohol heavily in magick, I felt an immense amount of psychic energy- and this was verified by increased clairvoyance- but I had a hard time shutting it off and focusing in the office when it was time to do mundane work for "the man."
It sounds like you use it very seldom, but that does not mean very much because it may be more about how it affects you and your tolerance. For some people, only a drink can cause them to get sucked into any psychic wirl-wind that happens to be passing by at the moment, while others can maintain their centre after a night of binging.
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A mystical experience is a form of intoxication. This state can be induced with or without the use of exterior substance--but as someone once said, "Why don't you try LSD, it's guaranteed."
However, these sorts of things have a way of weeding out the weak and the sickly, psychologically speaking.
But don't take it from me.
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93,
In regard to psychological "safety":
3
DE VITA CORRIGENDAKnow, son, that the true Principle of Self-Control is Liberty. For we are born into a World which is in Bondage to Ideals; to them we are perforce fitted, even as the Enemies to the Bed of Procrustes. Each of us, as he grows, learns Repression of himself and his true Will. "It is a lie, this folly against self": these Words are written in The Book of the Law. So therefore these Passions in ourselves which we understand to be Hindrances are not part of our True Will, but diseased Appetites, manifest in us through false early Training. Thus the Tabus of savage Tribes in such matter as Love constrain that True Love which is born in us; and by this Constraint come ills of Body and Mind. Either the Force of Repression carries it, and creates Neuroses and Insanities; or the Revolt against that Force, breaking forth with Violence, involves Excesses and Extravagances. All these Things are Disorders, and against Nature. Now then learn of me the testimony of History and literature as a great Scroll of Learning. But the Vellum of the Scroll is of Man's Skin, and its Ink of his Heart's Blood.
44
DE SAPIENTIA IN RE SEXUALIConsider Love. Here is a Force destructive and corrupting where by many Men have been lost. Yet without Love Man were not Man. Therefore thine Uncle Richard Wagner made of our Doctrine a musical Fable, wherein we see Amfortas, who yielded himself to Seduction, wounded beyond Healing; Klingsor, who withdraw himself from a like Danger, cast out for ever from the Mountain of Salvation; and Parsifal, who yielded not, able to exercise the true Power of Live, and thereby to perform the Miracle of Redemption. Of this also have I myself written in my Poema called Adonis.** It is the same with Food and Drink, with Exercise, with Learning itself, the Problem is ever to bring the Appetite into right Relation with the Will. Thus thou mayst fast or feast; there is no Rule than that of Balance.** And this Doctrine is of general Acceptation among the better Sort of Men; therefore on thee will I rather impress more carefully the other Part of my Wisdom, namely, the Necessity of extending constantly thy Nature to new Mates upon every Plane of Being, so that thou mayst become the perfect Microcosm, an Image without Flaw of all that is.
-- Liber Aleph vel CXI
Love is the law, love under will.
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93 93/93
I have permission to post the following essay and I thought it might be helpful to the conversation. If the admin needs information on copyright permission, please pm me.
Frater 939.'. was a disciple of Kenneth Grant and founded The Holy Order Of Ra Hoor Khuit.
On Drugs and the Astral Body by Frater 939.'.Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
I write today on Drugs and the Astral Body.
“All Things are interwoven. The most spiritual Thought in
thy Soul (I speak as a Fool) is also a most material Change in Blood or Brain.
Anger maketh the blood acid; Hate poisoneth Mother’s Milk; even as I shewed
formerly in reverse, how Disturbance of physical Function altereth the states
of Consciousness.” Liber Aleph, De Harmonia Animae Cum Corpore, Chapter 52Premise: The Simulacrum, which, we call the Astral Body is
adversely affected by certain drugs and physical states of ill health.Those of my students who have been with me for some time
will attest to my insistence on not doing magickal practices when you are ill,
or taking certain types of medication which inhibit the central nervous system.
These classes of drugs include opiate-based painkillers, or synthetic narcotic
drugs used to treat coughs or pain, certain antihistamine
drugs (drugs used to combat allergic reactions) and others. The rule of thumb is
if a drug’s function on the central nervous system is to powerfully decrease
stimulation or sensory input then its use should be avoided during magickal
practices such as Astral travel, rituals of banishing, rituals of evocation or
invocation and certain active meditations. The actions of these drugs cause
decreased control of the subtle functions of the brain that perceive and
monitor activities that I will call “spiritual”. Spiritual activities should be
generally defined as actions during which an individual attempts to become
aware of and manipulate very subtle energies (energy fields), which, we as
magicians assert, exist simultaneously with normal phenomenon and perceptions.
E.g. Spirits, Astral denizens, Daemons, Genii and various other egregore.With perceptions dulled by drugs the operator is weakened in their ability to apprehend subtle bodies (energy fields), just as they are weakened in their physical animal bodies. Such
weakness provides openings and gaps into which can flow obsessive ideas, currents
which run counter to the current the operator is attempting to work with as
well as full blown delusion. The outcome of such meanderings is easy to see.
The deluded, obsessed or simply “off track” operator makes false assumptions
and forms connections, which being false, are only to be undone and redone
later. The amount of wheel spinning involved in these scenarios is truly
monumental. Better to delay a practice than to do the practice impaired; for
such a delay will be a small setback indeed when the much larger potential
setback of practicing impaired is factored into the equation.My students will also recall my warnings concerning the dangers of psychoactive substances. These substances stimulate the central nervous systems and while are not so prone to foster a loss of control have other dangers equally debilitating to the fledgling magickan.
Psychoactive substances are more prone to cause aberration in control. In other
words a psychoactive substance, a stimulant, is prone to confuse the operator
such that a particular phenomenon may seem to be one thing while actually being
another. The actual cause of the problems created by drugs and magickal work
are, in the end, the same for both depressants and stimulants. The problem
arises in that faulty connections are formed in the brain during the use of
these substances and these faulty connections must be unmade before progress
toward correct connections can be made. Depending on the level of control
(number of effective connections in the brain) the operator has established,
through practices of concentration, meditation, banishing and invocation the
tendency to form false connections is lessened to the point that psychoactive
substances may function as adjuvant to a particular operation. Please note the
inexperienced aspirant (one who is still forming correct connections in the
brain) should by all means eschew such use and develop the ability to reach
states required for astral work, meditation and so on without the use of
psychoactive substances; i.e. form correct connections. It is only the most
experienced operator who can use such substances in a way that may, I repeat
may, add some value to the trance or experience on which they are working.A much more useful application of psychoactive substances is to use them to break a cycle of thought or to “recreate” the mind from some well-worn groove, or sterile path. This
“re-creational” use can be of value to any aspirant; Simply not in the context
of any ritual or practice and only as worship as defined by Liber AL (see “On
Wine and Strange Drugs” in this essay series for more information.) This kind
of mental hygiene is of course useful, the only dangers being those warned
against in our former essay mentioned above. Heed those warnings and comply with
those conditions and the function of these substances can enhance your ability
to face the arduous tasks which stand between you and the Beloved. Heed not
those conditions and you will surely be thrown off the Path only to find
yourself wholly mired in the shells of the qlippoth unable to free yourself
from your self made delusions.Love is the law, love under will.
Fraternally,
939\
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Just to add a conclusion to this thread:
I have discovered that the reason that the reason that I tend to have mystical experiences while intoxicated is due to the significant loosening/relaxing of my psyche during certain kinds of intoxication (read as: alcohol intoxication).
I think this more or less explains it, being the simplest and most obvious explanation available (and one which is backed up by experience).
93, 93/93.
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@Frater Aster Lux said
"I've also been on Vicodin before (wisdom teeth got yanked), but nothing mystical happened on it (nor did I try to induce anything mystical)."
Vicodin is among the weakest opiates available on the American market. A healthy dose of morphine or hydromorphone (dilaudid) should put you right in the thick of it. 50 mgs is a good threshold dose.
Opiates, however, have a funny side-effect: withdrawals. Kicking opiates is no joke, so take heed.
"Please note the inexperienced aspirant (one who is still forming correct connections in the brain) should by all means eschew such use and develop the ability to reach states required for astral work, meditation and so on without the use of psychoactive substances;"
Quite right. At the same time, however, one should realize that brain chemistry is influenced by any variety of impulses, internal and external. Conducting a ritual in a state of nervous tension is not too different from conducting a ritual on crack cocaine. It's a matter of degree. The "serious" student should learn to control the self under the influence of any substance whatsoever.
"It is the same with Food and Drink, with Exercise, with Learning itself, the Problem is ever to bring the Appetite into right Relation with the Will. Thus thou mayst fast or feast; there is no Rule than that of Balance."
Viola!
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finally something I get to chime in, if only because of convenient location.
I live in Colombia, close to the Amazon, and in late years it has become relatively common in these areas for indigenous tribes to host Ayahuasca/yage (DMT in ingested form, with MAOI) even for occidental outsiders and I happened to try it.
Before Yage, I had a lot of concepts in my head of the interconnection of everything in the universe, of the eternity of my soul, of good as the only true motor of things, and of all depressions a delusion, all of these were vague concepts and ideals but what Yage did was shift my mind so that in those 8 hours it had effect on me it became a certain experience, as certain as the keyboard I type on right now. it was a huge huge help, it is hard to stay within that mindset but I regard it as a sort of north star, no matter how deluded or depressed I might get by what happens I know that what is real, is what I experienced then. All flaws of character all confusions are but a convoluted form of this pure energy that animates me, that I felt so purely then.
Therefore, I would not class it on the same level as LSD or Psilocybin, I have not tried LSD but I have heard it is much like Psilocybin and I just dont think it's on the same category.
Ash, I too used to see Alcohol intoxication as a potentially aiding chemical before Yage, but after trying it, it became clear that all it did was intoxicate and dumb down aspects of my psyche, and any aspects that stood out simply did so because they were still working normally. In contrast, Yage truly heightened the better aspects of my being to a more spiritual level.
I have tried marijuana before and after Yage, and I have to say Yage affects how marijuana is synthetyzed in me, it has become a little bit hallucinogenic after Yage and has a slightly more spiritual bend to it.
I cannot imagine the experience of smoked DMT, since it's supposed to do the same it did to me in 8 hours, condensed in 15 minutes, DMT allegedly is pretty much just the biggest mindfuck you can(not) imagine, while Yage is seen as a motherly and caregiving experience in comparison.
Crowley allegedly used cocaine and other chemicals in his rituals, did he not leave behind any instructions on how to take them? all I have heard of psychedelics in a ritualistic enviroment comes from indigenous perspectives (well, and Mckenna), so it interests me what Crowley came up with from his own alternate background.