Geomantic Intelligences
-
[Robert, my apologies. In attempting to answer your post, I accidentally edited it instead. I'm very sorry. I've put my answer below, but there isn't a way for me to recover your original post. - Jim Eshelman]
-
"If I could back up and re-ask my initial question I would do it differently. I would simply ask why we refer our questions in Geomancy to a planetary spirit when the divination method as a whole belongs to Earth?"
I think the only speed bump here is semantics. Because the word "intelligences" was used, you are looking for the only other place that you are used to seeing the word "intelligences," and so you're treating it as if the one means the others. - I suggest, in the Crowley quote, you substitute another word, such as "agencies" (which you already easily used above). In that context, this would be perfectly synonymous, but has the advantage that it isn't used for anything else.
They aren't the planetary intelligences. There is no intention that Earth-divination isues be submitted to planetary spirits. So there is no need to be confused about them.
-
@RobertAllen said
"[Robert, my apologies. In attempting to answer your post, I accidentally edited it instead. I'm very sorry. I've put my answer below, but there isn't a way for me to recover your original post. - Jim Eshelman]"
No worries. I appreciate your efforts in answering my questions. You deserve a bottle of good scotch!
@Jim Eshelman said
"I think the only speed bump here is semantics. Because the word "intelligences" was used, you are looking for the only other place that you are used to seeing the word "intelligences," and so you're treating it as if the one means the others. - I suggest, in the Crowley quote, you substitute another word, such as "agencies" (which you already easily used above). In that context, this would be perfectly synonymous, but has the advantage that it isn't used for anything else."
This is very clear and helpful, despite my determination to hold onto some aspect of the original confusion for fear that it might not be as dead as I would like. Words are sins visited on many successive generations.
@Jim Eshelman said
"They aren't the planetary intelligences. There is no intention that Earth-divination isues be submitted to planetary spirits. So there is no need to be confused about them."
Lets forget about Crowley's statement in The Book of Thoth. I am only interested in how the Planetary spirits relate to the method of Geomancy.
The two documents on Geomancy I have studied are the instructions from Regardie's Golden Dawn, and his little book, based more or less on the same material, A Practical Guide to Geomantic Divination. I am vaguely aware that there is an account of this method in the Equinox somewhere. I am reading through them but I haven't gotten to this document yet, if it exists. So if there is some discrepancy in how it is treated in the Equinox, I am unaware of it, atm.
In the books I have consulted, the following names are provided as the ruling genii governing, among other things, the nature of the question being asked: Hismael, Bartzabel, Sorath, Kedemel, Taphthartharath, Chasmodai, and Zazel.
Following the method recommended I trace an invoking pentagram of earth at the top of the page, and within it I trace the sigil for the chosen spirit, one of those I just listed. Then I make a series of dashes or dots to formulate my first set of figures.
Despite your statement that I am not appealing to planetary spirits, it seems to me that that is exactly what I am doing. So I am still confused. When you say there is no need for confusion, I trust you. I just feel as though there is one small part of this process that has escaped my understanding, some obvious, simple explanation of what exactly is going on when I choose a governing spirit, trace their symbol, intone their name, and imagine, as I am making my marks that I am in fact asking the spirit a question.
@Alrah said
"We know that everything in the universe can be attributed to the 4 worlds. Is there any reason to believe there are intelligences that do not (in some fashion or another) also manifest in Assiah? It seems a simple question at the outset, but...
"Maybe this is the answer. As spirits they are pretty far down the hierarchy, and it could be argued their action is pretty earthy despite their planetary sympathies.
Jim, again, the time and effort you have spent is greatly appreciated. I'm serious about the bottle of scotch. I'd appreciate any further help you might want to provide.
love and will
-
A little bit less informative, but more or less the same information presented by Regardie in his manual.
This is taken from the Equinox, A Handbook of Geomancy:"Use clean (virgin) paper; place appropriate Pentagram
(either with or without a circumscribed circle) invoking. If
a circle, draw this first. Sigil of Ruler to which nature of
question most refers should be placed in the Pentagram thus:Saturn: Agriculture, sorrow, death.
Jupiter: Good fortune, feasting, church preferment.
Mars: War, victory, fighting.
Sol: Power, magistracy.
Venus: Love, music, pleasure.
Mercury: Science, learning, knavery.
Luna: Travelling, fishing, &c."In diagram, p. 144, the Sigil of Hismael should be used.
In marking points fix attention on Sigil and on..."note: I substituted the name of the planet for the symbol, and the emphasis for Himael (planetary spirit of Jupiter?) is also mine.
@Jim Eshelman said
"They aren't the planetary intelligences. There is no intention that Earth-divination isues be submitted to planetary spirits. So there is no need to be confused about them."
If I could make this go away I would, but I just don't get it...
love and will
-
When Crowley talked about Geomantic Intelligences in Magick in Theory and Practice, he wasn't referring to the Planetary Intelligences, such as Sorath. Plain and simple.
The Planetary spirits relate to Geomancy according the nature of the question asked. If you are asking a question that would fall under the nature of Mercury, you would draw the little sigil of Taphthartharath, which is actually a symbol from chiromancy.
The theory there is that any situation, issue or concern that a person would divine for is going to fall under one of the 7 planetary categories. -
@AEternitas1 said
"When Crowley talked about Geomantic Intelligences in Magick in Theory and Practice, he wasn't referring to the Planetary Intelligences, such as Sorath. Plain and simple."
That's not what I'm talking about. But see below where I mention Sorath.
@AEternitas1 said
"The Planetary spirits relate to Geomancy according the nature of the question asked. If you are asking a question that would fall under the nature of Mercury, you would draw the little sigil of Taphthartharath, which is actually a symbol from chiromancy."
Palmistry? But why not just draw the symbol for Mercury, why invoke a specific being in the hierarchy of a specific planet? By drawing the sigil and concentrating on it am I not creating a magical connection between myself, the divination process, and this entity?
The nature of the question and what planet it falls under is not the problem. My problem is that I am talking to a specific entity. It's not just because Saturn refers to questions of agriculture, Zazel is the name of an interested individual who is now part of the process. Can I be clearer on this point?
@AEternitas1 said
"The theory there is that any situation, issue or concern that a person would divine for is going to fall under one of the 7 planetary categories."
This is just not specific enough to be helpful. It is a general theory that I can accept generally, and I do, but it does not address the specific moment that gives rise to my confusion. If anything it makes the problem more acute, not because I have a problem understanding the theory, but that the execution implies that something more is going on.
Compare your statement with what is stated clearly enough in Regardie's book:
"To every planetary force in geomancy, there is
attributed a Genius presiding over all matters covered by the
definitions of that force. This Genius is an Earth elemental of
considerable stature. His name is given in the following
table, together with his sigil, a traditional word that merely
means a signature. This sigil should be very deliberately and
carefully drawn in the centre of the Pentagram which has
been traced. It should be visualized as clearly as is possible,
while vibrating his name several times, either vocally or
mentally."The 'following table' that Regardie refers to is a list of the traditional planetary spirits, not included here because I trust anyone can look this up for themselves in 777.
Here Regardie claims the spirit, and their sigil, do not refer to planetary spirits at all, they refer to earth Elementals. This would solve the problem in an instant if it were true. But I am assured that Sorath, one of these spirits, is not an earth elemental! The names in this table appear in 777 as a complete list in column 193. They are listed as planetary spirits.
@Jim Eshelman said
"
@RobertAllen said
"I am very reluctant to call Sorath a gnome when 777 has him listed as the spirit of the Sun."
Exactly! He's not a gnome."
My problem is either a very specific attribution problem, or the method is purposefully misleading. It is a line of code that has been badly commented on by the original programmer. In order to understand what this line of code is supposed to do I need to know, specifically, what function is being invoked by this instruction, and more, why I have to input this very specific type of information in the program. For example, why wouldn't the traditional symbol of the planet work just as well?
**
The problem as I see it does not have to do with astrological references or ways of categorizing the question, it has to do with the specific invocation of a specific entity...**love and will
-
...When you perform a geomancy reading using this system, are your results satisfactory? Does it seem to work? Or not?
Does it seem to work just as well if you draw the symbol of the planet within the Pentagram? Does it woork just as well without any of that?
The Golden Dawn system of Geomancy does in fact seem haphazard in ways, but does it work? It seems coherent enough for me. Otherwise it really just seems like writing a letter to Marvel comics, asking why the pattern on the Thing's skin is different in every drawing to which the editoors usually respond with some pseudo science response off the top of their heads.The way I see it there is either something to it or there isn't, either its flawed or you are missing something. Hell, I don't know either, I just know it's the system I've used from the start and it works for me, I really don't see theorizing about it as being all that useful.
-
It is worth noting that the Planetary spirits are the closest to the material, and have the most impact on the material, physical world, or so goes the theory.
-
@Alrah said
" Not all entities are nicely balanced. The key thing when working with the demonics is to work out what their other names are even if those part of them are severely atrophied as it presents you with the power.
'Zazel' is the name of a being that exists on several different planes simultaniously and may not be restricted by his name."
I find these thoughts fairly intelligent and a distinct possibility. I have thought them myself, but of course I can not be satisfied with my own speculations on this point, not until I determine no one really has a better answer. At that point it would be permissible for me to take matters into my own hands and make my best guess as I see it, fitting my theory into my understanding of magical methodology as best I can.
@Alrah said
" The question is interesting... but - how did such a being get it's claws into you? It's not the smartest cookie around...
"Maybe I have been warming to my new sense of self after finding out that I am a Virgo and not a Libra. My desk may be a disaster zone, but I have always been able to maintain a certain kind of mental order. Now that you ask, I must admit that this order is very important to me. I'm never late to meetings, I am always prepared, I do my homework, it's just who I am.
As far as being a good diviner is concerned, and now I am responding to AEternitas1's subsequent comments about results, I'm not very interested or impressed in the ability to accurately divine for its own sake. I am interested in it being an indication of a certain development of the intuition. And I am interested in Geomancy as a way to internalize and prepare for more sophisticated methods, like Tarot, or Astrology, and more broadly, skrying and ritual magic. Geomany incorporates a number of astrological interpretive tactics that I feel I can cope with. I know, if I can master these, it will leave me in a good position to contemplate Astrology proper, but only if I go the distance and not rely on the pre-made charts to tell me if any given figure is good or bad in a particular house. For this reason I don't think it would be appropriate to be laid back about any aspect of the method. Rather, it is something to sharpen my teeth on. Does this sound as pompous as I think it sounds?
On another note, I like Geomancy. I like its earthiness, its mixed nature. I do feel attracted to it more than any other divinatory method, atm. And as something I have decided I am going to learn, it is not in my nature to be satisfied with simply doing something that is deemed good enough. I've already done a number of things in my life, any one of which might be enough for one other person. I never did any of these half way and only moved on when I felt I had mined the best it had to offer me.
This one little consideration about the nature of the spirit—planetary or elemental, invoked or something else—is a log in my path. It is in the way to a series of practical experiments I want to start—a full geomantic divination everyday for an extended period of time. I've only been holding off because of this one little puzzle piece. Having a clear idea of how to think about it will effect my efforts. And even if I find there is no authority I can turn to for a workable explanation, that will also be a good thing to know before I start.
love and will
-
Needless to say I have been researching this outside the forum. My conclusion, which I am about to outline, was finalized by consulting some unnamed, outside sources. It was useful for me to be able to have a 'back and forth' that is not possible in a forum like this. These sources affirmed, or reaffirmed some of the comments already expressed on this thread by other commentators.
The argument that I could have been content sooner, or that arriving at a satisfactory answer should have been easier is arguable. For me, the possibility of confusion was itself a source of distress, and once identified needed to be addressed as part of the answer. I guess I could only do this for myself because no one who might be identified as a qualified authority or possessed of a clear insight into the nature of the event that formed the nexus of my question could be expected to appreciate the nature of my distress. The points I initially found difficult, despite these opinions, and my other researches, are still difficult. The only difference between now and before is that I have been able to factor, what for me was a point of possible confusion, into the answers, and I am now content.
Since I have pressed this question I thought I would just map it out my answers as best I can, so there can be an end to it, at least as far as my question on the forum is concerned, after all, I started it. What I am about to write will seem repetitive to anyone who has read the previous posts.
My results.
Basic facts:
- The spirits named in the Geomantic divination are Planetary Spirits; they are not Gnomes.
- The divination is powered by Gnomes, not Planetary Spirits; the question is directed towards, and is answered by Gnomes, despite the reference to entities in the planetary hierarchy.
The act of tracing the spirits symbol and concentrating on it during the formulation of the first set of figures does two things, as far as I understand it:
- It indicates the nature of the question.
- It is also meant to function as something akin to the way the planets influence terrestrial events. For example, for a question related to general concerns of Venus, the influence of the planet Venus is invoked as a way to animate those sympathetic entities tied to mundane and terrestrial events that are Venusian in character. This is done through the agency of the Spirit of Venus.
The assumption that follows this operation is: Planetary Spirits are used in this case because, being a Spirit, they are closer to the plane of action, and are therefore a ruling influence as regards the activities of Earth—they are the lowest manifestation of the planetary force before descending into a chaotic state, as such, these entities actually touch the Earth, though not strictly speaking, of the Earth.
The analogy I was given is that it is like visiting a bordello owned by one of the Planetary Spirits. By using the sigil and invoking the name you are knocking at the door or ringing the bell. The person who comes to the door, takes your money, and who accompanies you into one of the rooms is a Gnome.
In this there is a very subtle characterization as regards Earth Elementals and their connection to the plane of action that I am still mulling over in my head; there is also a very specific application of the law of sympathies that is at work. I feel it could be put more clearly, but the above description at least allows me to feel as though I am not working from a confused place.
love and will
-
The following is extracted from notes appended to the instruction on Gemancy given in the Alpha et Omega Temple, and printed in Regardie's Complete Golden Dawn system.
"Geomancy being a form of Divination especially attributed to the Element of Earth, and
therefore more purely Terrestrial in operation, the Spirits and their Characters are more naturally
appropriate hereto than the Intelligences, as representing the more weighty and automatic force of the
Planetary Ray in its action upon the Earth. Also the Sigils employed in Geomancy are different from
those of the same Spirits when taken from the Kameas of the Planets, and this to affirm their more
specialized action in this Art." -
@AEternitas1 said
"The following is extracted from notes appended to the instruction on Gemancy given in the Alpha et Omega Temple, and printed in Regardie's Complete Golden Dawn system.
"Geomancy being a form of Divination especially attributed to the Element of Earth, and
therefore more purely Terrestrial in operation, the Spirits and their Characters are more naturally
appropriate hereto than the Intelligences, as representing the more weighty and automatic force of the
Planetary Ray in its action upon the Earth. Also the Sigils employed in Geomancy are different from
those of the same Spirits when taken from the Kameas of the Planets, and this to affirm their more
specialized action in this Art.""This is a really nice quote, thank you. I wish I had access to the entire document. You say it comes from Regardie's Complete Golden Dawn system, and it is not just something that belongs to the Alpha et Omega Temple?
@AEternitas1 said
"Also the Sigils employed in Geomancy are different from
those of the same Spirits when taken from the Kameas of the Planets, and this to affirm their more
specialized action in this Art.""Just one more thing, does your source say exactly what this is—what is the "specialized action"? Or are you left to fill in this blank based on other statements and assumptions? Because it was the lack of a clear statement detailing the nature of this action that I've been struggling with.
love and will
-
I got the quote from Regardie's COmplete Golden Dawn System, he got the quote from some notes appended to the Geomancy instructions given out by the AO.
The specialized action reffered to in this instance would be that f Geomantic DIvination, which is a much different role for the spirits than that of evocation or talismanic magic. I think the idea is to invoke or evoke or whatever, a planetary force that is sympathetic to the nature of the question being divined.