Discussing the Book of the Law
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Robert, 93,
"Edward, aren't you begging the question here—can you say HOW this enlightened debate might actually appear in practice? Along these lines it is hard not to admire the Quakers. They sit in silence, and when someone receives an inspiration, or has something to say, they stand up and say it. Then they sit down and continue waiting in silence. One would expect there to be no challenge to the message, no discussion as to what it really means, and/or if the person speaking was actually channeling a divine truth or not. I suspect them of being secret Thelemites!"
This is where, as I have encountered it, initiated practice and experience come into play. The standard Thelemic and Hermetic practices produce the rudiments of an attitude that permits and enhances this broader acceptance of other perspectives. But above all, they teach us to become more patient with ourselves, so we can be clearer that any given standpoint we might attain is just another resting point on the track up the hill. And it's that experience - realizing that the viewpoints I might have attained in 2004, 2007 and 2010 no longer apply - that most effectively allows the enlightened debate to emerge.
I agree that the Quaker approach has affinities with that of Thelema, except in the execution of what is learned. It can be too passive. That said, I acknowledge Quakers have long been gutsy social activists, manifesting the guidance they receive in their lives.
"Imo, almost all religious practice, except for true mystical/experiential paths like Thelema, have lost any claim to a vertical connection. They have replaced it with some version of horizontal relating and control. This is because vertical energy is private, something between you and what is above and below. Horizontal energy is about community and social norms. They don't work well together, they never have. Is it really possible to have both at the same time in the same place without one ultimately raping the other? Most religions have correctly divined the answer to be 'no.' For this reason, personal revelation is frowned on. It basically means that that individual is out of control and might not be counted on to contribute a third of their wages to the church coffers."
Okay, most religions do that. Thelema is still in its early stages, and has to transcend some of the Old Aeon forms of group organization. The test is for us actually to deliver that constructive decentralization over the next century or so.
I think there's also a stage in Thelemic practice where the internal up-down dialogue/exchange, which is where we all begin, permeates, or is expressed, into the horizontal framework you describe. That's far more of a reciprocal embracing than a rape.
I envisage K&C being not just an I-Thou relationship, but an I-in-All-This situation. And that would apply to some degree to attainments that come prior to the final K&C goal.
93 93/93,
Edward -
@Edward Mason said
"The standard Thelemic and Hermetic practices produce the rudiments of an attitude that permits and enhances this broader acceptance of other perspectives.
"We should definitely hope this is the case. And while we are at it, inner conviction based on experience and an appreciation for the vagaries of verbal communication couldn't hurt.
@Edward Mason said
"And it's that experience - realizing that the viewpoints I might have attained in 2004, 2007 and 2010 no longer apply - that most effectively allows the enlightened debate to emerge.
"I think this is a very insightful observation. But I don't think it is something that is only now possible because of the new Aeon, though maybe it is becoming more common as a result of the change. Artists have appreciated this truth for at least as long as we have had records recording their efforts. In fact, we are told—those of us who have had formal instruction—that while the truths of today are absolute and must be respected, we would be wise to anticipate their necessary transformation into something else. Moreover, this change can occur at any moment starting...now—a few seconds from now, tomorrow, in two weeks, ten years or a hundred—any truth I can now point to will eventually stop being true. The degree to which an artist understands this fact determines the difference between being exceptional and just being 'okay,' in other words, a hack.
Now follows a meditation on the topic...
There are models for the vertical influencing the horizontal. Liber Al itself is an example of this. As folks read the book it spreads its influence, horizontally. Darshan is another example; and so I would imagine is formal initiation. But these are not discussions. I would love to read a play, a hypothetical dialogue between a group of individuals, where opinions are discussed, and where the result is an enhancing of ones inner connection to the truth and not a weakening of it. The difficult point seems to be the idea that there needs to be an agreement. But what if I simply agree to respect you and your process, what would be the need for discussion? You already have my respect, no need to discuss! So, why do I need to discuss the book at all? To connect with like-minded people? we could have a pot-luck for that, a social mixer. Alas, there is still no need to discuss the book.
If I were directing a play that I thought was the shit—I mean shit in a good sense. The first thing I would ask the actors is: why should we do this play(?). They of course would not be able to answer the question, but I know that answer has to found or the play will not achieve the necessary degree of necessity to justify all the time and effort that will be required to make it worth the price of admission. Perhaps this topic, Discussing the Book, is not the core question here. Maybe there needs to be a well defined need, first. Why discuss the book?
"...what does one hope to achieve in a group context, based on such a book?"
Love and Will
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Just a question:
What is the difference between instruction and discussion? If u instruct me on the mysteries of Liber AL are you not "discussing" it with me(in the true sense of the word)?
Just curious about what you think about that.
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@FraterYod said
"Just a question:
What is the difference between instruction and discussion? If u instruct me on the mysteries of Liber AL are you not "discussing" it with me(in the true sense of the word)?
Just curious about what you think about that."
If you are asking me:
I guess, in terms of instruction, it is the assumption of a hierarchy—a vertical relationship as opposed to a horizontal one.
Love and Will
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In some ways this reminds me of the basic political classification system used in Archaology: band, tribe, chiefdom, state.
In undergrad this was always presented as a vertical classification. Because I was taught to perceive this vertically, I could not imagine or even think of it any other way.
Then in Grad school a horizontal perspective was introduced to me. This simple perspective, something I had never considered before, changed completely my concept of political classification.Through discussion It provided waves of insight about politics and its relation to culture.
I think there is a time to learn(like an undergrad) and there is a time to discuss(like a grad).
Just my opinion:)
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@FraterYod said
"In some ways this reminds me of the basic political classification system used in Archaology: band, tribe, chiefdom, state.
In undergrad this was always presented as a vertical classification. Because I was taught to perceive this vertically, I could not imagine or even think of it any other way.
Then in Grad school a horizontal perspective was introduced to me. This simple perspective, something I had never considered before, changed completely my concept of political classification.Through discussion It provided waves of insight about politics and its relation to culture.
I think there is a time to learn(like an undergrad) and there is a time to discuss(like a grad).
Just my opinion:)"
Are you being critical of my terms, Horizontal/Vertical, or my point of view?
If it is my point of view, could you be more descriptive and precise about what I actually wrote that you disagree with, because otherwise your post is confusing. If it's the terms, then what about the terms is bothering you, the spatial metaphor or their black/white binary character? You know, I could just have easily used terms like Inner/Outer or Private/Public.
Use quotes from my previous posts. Otherwise we are not having a discussion. Just my opinion:)
By the way, congrats on making it to Grad school.
Love and Will
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sorry about that:( Sometimes I tend to write in a forcefull manner even when I am just trying to share some thoughts. I hope u will forgive me if I insulted you.
Anyway, I agree with everything u said. I was just connecting my thoughts to yours....sharing:)
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Robert, 93,
"The difficult point seems to be the idea that there needs to be an agreement. But what if I simply agree to respect you and your process, what would be the need for discussion? You already have my respect, no need to discuss! So, why do I need to discuss the book at all? To connect with like-minded people? we could have a pot-luck for that, a social mixer. Alas, there is still no need to discuss the book."
The key issue for me here is that many people have taken the Comment as a gag-order. But without there being some exchange of perspectives about what's in Liber L, those who come to approach it in future will be limited to Crowley's own views as a guide.
For me, 'discussion' doesn't have to happen between a group of people sitting in the same room, nor do there need to be conclusions reached, let alone, agreement or consensus. I regard consensus is intrinsically impossible, not to mention undesirable. The need isn't for agreement, but for better and wider comprehension of the ways in which interpreting it should be approached. The art of Qabalistic exegesis needs to be learned from example.
I agree with your other point about the arts allowing people to explore changing perspectives. In fact, I'm a little surprised at the tack you've taken on this, given your own experience with theater.
93 93/93,
Edward -
@Edward Mason said
"The difficult point seems to be the idea that there needs to be an
For me, 'discussion' doesn't have to happen between a group of people sitting in the same room, nor do there need to be conclusions reached, let alone, agreement or consensus. I regard consensus is intrinsically impossible, not to mention undesirable. The need isn't for agreement, but for better and wider comprehension of the ways in which interpreting it should be approached. The art of Qabalistic exegesis needs to be learned from example."I agree 100%.
I noticed when I was in college that i would learn as much from my classmates as I would my Instructor. The different veiwpoints always seem to stimulate my intellect and allowed me a better overall understanding on the subject.
I get the feeling this is a natural, inherent way of learning.
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@Edward Mason said
"
I agree with your other point about the arts allowing people to explore changing perspectives. In fact, I'm a little surprised at the tack you've taken on this, given your own experience with theater.
"I'm not against discussion, or group process, just not sure how it makes sense in terms of discussing Liber Al.
I self-define myself as a Thelemite; as such I accept the Book of the Law. How I am able to do this is a private matter. Talking about it seems impossible to my mind for any number of reasons: to do so would be to cheapen my relationship with the book, or willfully enter into a conceptual confusion when my experience is more of an experiential sort. I think I could get very confused very fast if I dealt with the Book in the wrong way.
Theater is different. It is, in my experience, the highest expression of the group dynamic possible—enlightened, generous. But it is what it is. It was designed to help people live together. You want to transform the culture? Make Theater an integral part of K-12!
A couple of posts back FraterYod asked about the difference between Discussion and Instruction. In practice they tend to overlap, but they are different. They form, along with Sharing the three things that tends to happen on this forum: people either discuss; they look for, or provide information; or they share something about themselves and their magical process. It's a messy world, so these rarely exist separate from the others, but they are nonetheless still separate activities.
Let me share: As you pointed out in your initial post, chapter three is especially challenging, very difficult to understand, and even repulsive on some level. Appropriately, my acceptance has little to do with a rationale defense of the book in terms of its rhetoric. It feels more like a dance, a new style of physical locomotion where I am blind folded, but if I fling myself forward in just the right way I somehow manage a skating momentum on the edge of what is possible—beyond old, constricting frames of reference. I feel I am in the zone when all the opinions and arguments amount to a great big nothing—so what, I am moving forward—what is that fear and defensive posturing that used to dominate my thinking, and who cares...
As for instruction: If you were to point out some mystery about Liber Al I would be eager to hear what you had to say.
Having dealt with sharing and instruction we are left with discussion. What is the essence of this activity? When is discussion not a debate?
@Edward Mason said"For me, 'discussion' doesn't have to happen between a group of people sitting in the same room, nor do there need to be conclusions reached, let alone, agreement or consensus. I regard consensus is intrinsically impossible, not to mention undesirable. The need isn't for agreement, but for better and wider comprehension of the ways in which interpreting it should be approached. The art of Qabalistic exegesis needs to be learned from example."
Does what you are describing have more to do with the benefits of sharing and instruction than it does with discussion?
"...argue not; convert not; talk not over much!"
Love and Will
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Robert ,93,
"I self-define myself as a Thelemite; as such I accept the Book of the Law. How I am able to do this is a private matter. Talking about it seems impossible to my mind for any number of reasons: to do so would be to cheapen my relationship with the book, or willfully enter into a conceptual confusion when my experience is more of an experiential sort. I think I could get very confused very fast if I dealt with the Book in the wrong way. "
Well, I'm not suggesting we have to talk about it! You have formed your own relationship with the text and all that lies behind it, which sounds like the fruit of careful thought, meditation and whatever practices you follow. My concern is that too many people can't get into the text because they find it hard to open the doors to it.
In addition, I think Crowley's own relationship to Liber L, while highly important, has blinded a lot of people to the intuitions that can arise. I sometimes find him too set on a particular course in his published exegeses, and I need to spurn him in order to stay with the tendencies of my True Will in this matter.
But to "get very confused very fast" is a part of the process of opening up to the Book. We need to make wrong turns, so that when we finally make the corrections, remembrance of what we learned stays with us. To do this solely in a private bubble slows our learning.
I don't see the distinction between discussion and instruction as a valid division of ideas. I am instructed by discussing my own ideas with others. Again: I basically want the gag-order lifted permanently, not to find an excuse to lecture people on my own private explorations.
"Let me share: As you pointed out in your initial post, chapter three is especially challenging, very difficult to understand, and even repulsive on some level. Appropriately, my acceptance has little to do with a rationale defense of the book in terms of its rhetoric. It feels more like a dance, a new style of physical locomotion where I am blind folded, but if I fling myself forward in just the right way I somehow manage a skating momentum on the edge of what is possible—beyond old, constricting frames of reference. I feel I am in the zone when all the opinions and arguments amount to a great big nothing—so what, I am moving forward—what is that fear and defensive posturing that used to dominate my thinking, and who cares..."
It's perspectives such as this that we need to share as much as specific insights into individual verses. For example, people coming to this forum are, quite probably, still trying to figure out literal meanings of verses, and don't have a wider frame of reference.
"As for instruction: If you were to point out some mystery about Liber Al I would be eager to hear what you had to say."
The only thing that occurs to me in this context is what happened after I'd spent a long time - over a year, maybe two - memorizing Chapter One. One evening, as I sat down to go through it as usual, I found it being recited through me. That was when I first understood that Nuit, rather than being just a grand philosophical proposition about All & Everything, has the actual character of a Goddess. She was far beyond what I was really able to grasp or encompass with my normal consciousness.
The more I try to say about that experience, the further from the reality my words are going to go. But simply noting it for the benefit of others could be worth something. And I don't think that goes against "talk not overmuch."
93 93/93,
Edward -
Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@RobertAllen said
"I would love to read a play, a hypothetical dialogue between a group of individuals, where opinions are discussed, and where the result is an enhancing of ones inner connection to the truth and not a weakening of it."
There's one in the Curriculum of the A∴A∴:
Three Dialogues Between Hylas and Philonous by George Berkley
Love is the law, love under will.
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"As for instruction: If you were to point out some mystery about Liber Al I would be eager to hear what you had to say.
"
Part of my problem with this is that I have taken many OATHS and I have a hard time determining if I initially learned something on my own or was instructed under the oath. So I get anxious sometimes when I think about discussing Liber AL
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Edward,
As often happens, at some point the in discussion the 'back and forth' seems more like a general agreement than a clearly defined demarcation between your camp and my camp. Nevertheless, I still feel I have a valid concern, but getting hung up on definitions is just bad form.
Something else begins to kick in for me, in so far as I am still thinking about the general proposition of discussing the book, and you keep talking about how you see it as an opportunity, not as a mistake. This is an artifact of my thinking related to being a director. Instead of insisting on my point of view I begin to think: if it's going to happen, how should it be done—what is the best way to get there from here. I become genuinely curious to see if I can make it happen.
@Edward Mason said
"I think Crowley's own relationship to Liber L, while highly important, has blinded a lot of people to the intuitions that can arise. I sometimes find him too set on a particular course in his published exegeses, and I need to spurn him in order to stay with the tendencies of my True Will in this matter."
@Edward Mason said
"But to "get very confused very fast" is a part of the process of opening up to the Book. We need to make wrong turns, so that when we finally make the corrections, remembrance of what we learned stays with us. To do this solely in a private bubble slows our learning."
@Edward Mason said
"I don't see the distinction between discussion and instruction as a valid division of ideas. I am instructed by discussing my own ideas with others. Again: I basically want the gag-order lifted permanently, not to find an excuse to lecture people on my own private explorations.
"Not quoted are yours and my examples how we each related to parts of the book. I take that gesture as a possible first step—I could see a survey, an open invitation to other Thelimites asking them to share similar stories. This can be directed by asking leading questions, left totally open, or a combination of both. In this way it might be possible to develop a general sense of the kinds of things that tend to happen, a mapping of the various paths taken that have allowed people access to the book in some measure. I would consider this research and preparation for the creation of an actual study group.
This group would be created with the intent of exploring the general idea of discussing the book, in addition to exploring related practices like further sharing, instruction in exegetical practices, and becoming familiar with past commentaries. The general goal would be to develop a practice. Post discussion analysis should be part of the process to address the known concerns, new concerns and pit falls that are discovered in the process, the role of the moderator, if any, and so on...
I stop here. It would not really be my place to do this, despite my impulse to make every effort to be supportive and help based on my past experiences with ensemble created work. I lack the history and the connections.
Love and Will
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Robert Allen said:
"This is because vertical energy is private, something between you and what is above and below. "
There is a view that this only represents a particular phase of development. There is a view that also says that Man
has to develop via group initiation eventually; that certain initiations/developments are simply not possible unless it is on a group level. AA Bailey is a good example of this Theosophical idea, along with HPB who Crowley regarded in
very high esteem. Traditional Kabbalah also emphasizes the importance of the group towards the correction of Adam HaRishon.What remains to be seen is whether specifically Thelemic groups will adopt this in the future, despite the current
initiatory procedures. There have been underground groups working on this principle for many years although the
results have never been made public.Interesting thread to follow imo
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"There is a view that also says that Man
has to develop via group initiation eventually; that certain initiations/developments are simply not possible unless it is on a group level."There a certain Initiations, Practices, Developments of Liber AL that CANNOT be done in a solitary manner....my 3 cents;)
I am positive there are those here who have walked way farther on the paTh then me. So i am sure that what I am saying can be validated if those individuals wish to do so.
I am sure I will get a severe reaction to this:p
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To clarify what i mean I want to reiterate that for me discussion and instruction cannot be seperated. For me instuction is a Child of discussion.
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@Atzil said
"Robert Allen said:
"This is because vertical energy is private, something between you and what is above and below. "
There is a view that this only represents a particular phase of development. There is a view that also says that Man
has to develop via group initiation eventually; that certain initiations/developments are simply not possible unless it is on a group level. "I'm not impressed by these kinds of statements. I've read similar sentiments myself. God, or the Devil, is in the details.
As I see it, if you want to assert this is happening, or is possible, you have two options. You can either claim the answer has to do with 'enlightened' practice—basically it looks the same as as old practice, but it is enlightened—or you can provide a structural model that can actually be tested. The enlightened argument, while it may be the only/best answer, is still a bit of a cop out because it basically asserts that any problem will be overcome when we are able to do it better.
I would argue, more from experience than anything else, that unless a person has a very firm grasp of who they are and what they know for themselves, group activity can be a mistake. This certitude in ones position—verticality—is the only thing I know of which can stand against the tidal forces of the group—horizontality.
Not saying it can't be done, I just am really curious to see for myself!
Love and Will
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"I would argue, more from experience than anything else, that unless a person has a very firm grasp of who they are and what they know for themselves, group activity can be a mistake. This certitude in ones position—verticality—is the only thing I know of which can stand against the tidal forces of the group—horizontality.
"
Thats true. In my opinion both sides of this issue is true.
But you dont need enlightenment to understand either of these issues. If u just read various myths and understand them via your intellect, u will see these patterns of Instuction and discusion over and over.
Anyway, here are concrete examples in various outer orders that show in certain degrees/grades the interplay between discussion/instruction.
O.T.O
H.O.O.R.
The Temple of BabalonI have been involved in all three of these Orders and I can state with confidence that at higher grades this interplay becomes pronounced.
Thats all I can say about it. I value my Oath and also I cant afford to be sued in civil court:p