"dweller on the threshold"

Jim Eshelman

Crowley mentions it under that name. I think he learned it primarily from the novel Zanoni. He discusses it in such works as John St. John.

Escarabajo

@Jim Eshelman said

"Crowley mentions it under that name. I think he learned it primarily from the novel Zanoni. He discusses it in such works as John St. John."

Figures I would miss that...

I've recently noticed this term in a couple books, so I figured it would be fairly frequent in Crowley's writings if it was used. Time to read up...

christibrany

if you are unaware also, it is a key term in Lovecraft's mythos and also accordingly kenneth grants writings. i find it fascinating that he equates this term with chthonian entities and also cthulhuan entities as well. grants theory is that Lovecraft's 'fiction' is actually due to the creative process a part of spiritual 'fact' that he channeled in some way. that is possible but i am not sure if i buy it 100%. I am probably closer to buying it than not,,, but just thought youd find the extra association interesting.
such as the 'lurkers on the threshold' or dwellers being some sort of Elder Gods etc.

gurugeorge

@Escarabaj said

"Hi All,

I've noticed reference to the "dweller on the threshold" in a couple books on Astral projection / OBE.

This is meant to be some sort of being which you must confront, which represents the sum total of fears, anxieties, etc. I assume this is, from an initiatory point of view, early on in one's path.

I am curious where this concept originated from, what precisely it might be, and whether Crowley references this concept by another name. (I don't recall mention of it in Thelemic lit.)"

Crowley discusses it in his commentaryto one of the chapters of Liber LXV, Ch IV, verses 34-37:-

"
34
The threshold'' is before the door'' or pylon'' of Daleth. (Daleth means a door; its attribution is Venus, pure Love, and its Path is from Chokmah to Binah, the base of the Triangle of the Supernals. This door'' is thus in all ways a fit symbol of the entrance to Initiation). The ``threshold'' is then below the Path of Daleth on the Tree of Life; i.e., it is in the Abyss.

The above symbolism refers strictly to the Attainment of Master of the Temple; but its Truth is reflected into the technically correct account of the Initiation of the Dominus Liminis to Adeptus Minor. Here the door'' is the third Reciprocal or Transverse Path (Daleth is the first) Pe which means a mount -- the door of the vital organs. Pe is the letter of Atu XVI the House of God'' or Blasted Tower.'' The Hieroglyph represents a Tower -- symbolic of the Ego in its Phallic Aspect, yet shut up, i.e., separate. This Tower is smitten by the Lightning Flash of Illumination, the impact of the Holy Guardian Angel and the Flaming Sword of the Energy that proceeds from Kether to Malkuth. Thence are cast forth two figures forming by their [...] attitude the letter [...]: [...] these are the twins (Horus and Harpocrates) born at the breaking-open of the Womb of the Mother (the second aspect of the Tower as a spring shut up, a fountain sealed''). The represent in respect of the male aspect of the [...] Tower the spermatozoa ([...] is [...] the sign in which is the Sun at the Winter Solstice, when the New Year begins) emitted when the Phallus is smitten by the ecstasy of the Orgasm (Lightning Flash) and ``blasted'' by losing its erection.

On the ``threshold'' the Dominus Liminis is menanced by the Paths [...] of [...] and [...] the Atus XIII, XIV, XV. (Temperance or Restriction, Death, and the Devil, which issue from Tiphereth the abode of His Angel to ward off the profane of the Outer Order of GD.

The main difference (in essence) between the formulae of the two Initiations, into the R.R. et A.C. and the AA, respectively, are that the Adeptus Exemptus is below Daleth altogether, though he has crossed the Second Reciprocal Path Teth on his way to become an Adeptus Exemptus, and has no Path by which he may travel (save Gimel, which leads from Tiphereth to Kether, not from Chesed, to Binah, whither he is bound. This is to ward off the profane of the Inner Order of R.R. et A.C.) while the Dominus Liminis has already traversed the Path of Pe to attain the Grade of Philosophus, and the threshold is within, instead of without, the Pylon.

In crossing the Abyss the aim is to annihilate the Ego and its appurtenances altogether. In Qabalistic symbolism to attain to Zero. The peril is therefore that of identification with any of the products of disingegration. Choronzon, therefore, by which same we signify the idea of Dispersion, has no place within the Supernal Triad. The threshold of initiation, the Abyss, lies wholly without the door Daleth. The completeness of the disintegration, the impotence ([...]) and idleness ([...]) is guaranteed by the absence of the love (Daleth) which might otherwise bind together the dissipated events to form a unity (in the 7th Aethyr, Liber 418, we learn that if the Black Brothers were only able to look up to the Goddess of Love (Daleth) above them they might yet attain to Understanding.)

In the Initiation to Adeptus Minor, the conditions are altogether other. The aim is the attainment of unity not negativity, and there is no such perfection in the Sephiroth of the Ruach, Chesed, Geburah, Tiphereth, which compose the Grades of the Inner Order (R.R. et A.C.) as necessarily excluding Choronzon from the three Grades of the AA. The student is now referred to the Elemental Watch-Towers of Sir Edward Kelly (See The Equinox I:7 - . The four Elemental Tablets (12 ;tm 13) are bound together by the little Tablet of Spirit ( 4 ;tm 5), or, when the Tablets are arranged to show them each as a sub-section of the unity of Tetragrammaton by a black cross containing the letters of this little Tablet of Spirit. The names of evil demons are found notably by taking some imperfect and unbalanced symbol for the Watch-Towers such as a bilateral name from beneath the bar of the Calvary Cross in any of the Lesser Angles -- and prefixing the appropriate letter from the Black Cross.

The doctrine implied is that the nature of Spirit is not only represented by Shin, the Holy Spirit, whose descent into the midst of Tetragrammaton sanctifies and illuminates the blind forces of the Elements, but is also soulless matter, dark, formless and void, the mere basis or background for the manifestation of all phenomena indifferently; and this truth is also symbolized by the blackness and undeveloped potentiality of Akasa as explained by the legend of Shiva mentioned in a previous paragraph.

Spirit may therefore be manifested either as the Holy Guardian Angel or as the Evil Persona, the Dweller on the Threshold, portrayed sensationally for trade by Sir Edward Bulwer-Lytton in his romance Zanoni. The doctrine is also frequently found in folk-lore, where man is represented as attended by both a good and an evil genius. The horror of the latter is intensified by his function as the alternative to the Holy Guardian Angel. Now, in the case of Exempt Adept, should he be beaten back from the City of the Pyramids by failure to comply perfectly with the formula of love under will'' he remains lost in the Abyss with no future possibility than to identify himself in turn with each incoherent and unintelligible phenomenon that appears in the sensorium of the man, who has been disintegrated as the first to each and every imperfection which claims to be. Entirely different is the case of the Dominus Liminis whose operation, if unsucessful, may be a simple failure perhaps due to no serious error of his own. Apart from slight discouragement he should be able to try again without disadvantage. Indeed he should have used his failure as a means of instruction. But he may also fail from not having thoroughly assimilated the injunction of the Hieraeus in the ceremony of his initiation into the Grade of Neophyte: Fear is failure and the forerunner of failure. Be thou therefore without fear! for in the heart of the coward Virtue abideth not!''

Similarly, he may have been unable to fulfil the formula of the Hierophant in that ceremony: Remember that Unbalanced Force is evil. Unbalanced Mercy is but weakness: Unbalanced Severity is but oppression.'' Once more the fascination of evil may be no less perilous than the fear. In any case he may expect to be confronted first of all by his Evil Genius (cf., further, the ceremony of Zelator in GD -- the appearance of the Angels Samael, Metatron, and Sandalphon). He may fail to abide the onslaught. He may be thrust back from the threshold, and his defeat may be more or less damaging according to circumstances. But his fear may be so great as to induce him to transform it into fascination, or his exhaustion so complete that he is prepared to purchase rest at any price. In either case the result may be that he accepts his Evil Persona as his Guardian Angel. I should be loth to assert that even so fearful a form of failure is necessarily fatal and final although evidently it must always create a disastrous Karma as involving the assertion fortified by the most solemn oaths and sealed by the most intense ecstasy of the absolute existence of evil, in a sense of the word, actually and ad hoc defined by himself, i.e., he has acquiesced in duality, established an interior conflict in himself, and ceremonially blasphemed and denied the unity of his own True Will. Appalling as is such a catastrophe, it lacks the element of finality since the principles involved do not extend above Tiphereth. He has become a Black Magician no doubt, but this is far indeed from being a Black Brother. It cannot even be said that such an one thereby manifests any tendency to become a Black Brother when the time is ripe; for his union even with the personification of Evil is also an act of love under will, though that will be false and vitiated by every conceivable defect and error. His chief danger is presumably that the intensity of the suffering which results from this may, as in the case of Glyndon in Zanoni, lead him to seek to escape altogether from Magick, to refrain from any act of love for fear lest he stray still farther from his true path. Let him remember the words of my brother: If the fool would persist in his folly he would become wise.'' Let him resolutely continue in iniquity, invoking the vengeance of the Gods, so that at the end the excess of his love and its transcendence of anguish may bring him back into the way of truth.

From the above it should have become clear how it is that the Evil Genius is within the Sanctuary of the Temple of the Rosy Cross whose formula is love under will,'' while Choronzon is excluded alike from that shrine and from the City of the Pyramids whose law, although still love under will,'' understands both those terms as without limit.

34
The Evil is now described. The language is of course symbolic. At the same time the appearance here given might correspond very closely with the actual expressions of experience.

We are twice told that he stood'' which is to be contrasted with the activity of going'' of the Holy Guardian Angel (see verses 37 - 41). It is the peculiar token of any God that he should go. For this reason he bears the Ankh or sandal-strap in the Egyptian monuments. This antithesis is connected with the conception of the Black Brothers as shutting themselves up, or resenting change. The thelemic conception of the Universe is dynamic, so that stasis is inevitably the symbol of conflict with Nature. It is the equivalent of Death; for Death being a change, it is an event, i.e., a phenomenon of activity of life. This doctrine should be studied very thoroughly in CCXX.

Let the student attend, moreover, to the contrast between the symbols of the Holy Guardian Angel and those of the Evil Genius. The former, (See verses 38 - 41) are positive, active, solid, dynamic; of chariots, horseman, spearmen, the weapons of Jupiter and Pan are tremendously vital in his hands. Per contra the Evil Genius is vague, unreal and inactive. His characteristics are horror and emptiness. His eyes are ghastly, which I take in its strict sense as connected with geist. And this epithet is peculiarly abhorrent since the sense of sight is attributed to Fire, and should be clear-cut and luminous. Such activities as he commands are slow, cozy and vermicular. They resemble wells of poisoned water, i.e. they lurk and receive as little light as possible, whereas the ideal eye should dart forth flame. He causes even the air about him to stagnate and stink. Anatomically he resembles a fish, a cold-blooded inhabitant of the passive element. (Note the fish as the accepted symbol of Jesus). Even so, he is old, slow-moving, while the chief virtue of fish is to be quickly gliding. And he is gnarled, offering unnecessary resistance to his own movement, and increasing its friction. Hideous!

Shells or Qliphoth are lifeless excrement; and Abaddon is the destroyer or disperser -- the destroyer by dispersion.

35
His method of combat as distinct from that of the Angel which is to pierce with a spear or smite with a thunderbolt is to envelope with his demoniacal and therefore illusory tentacles. This method is to restrict the Aspirant well knowing that the word of Sin is restriction.'' He succeeds in communicating the eight fears,'' which are connected with the eight heads of the stooping dragon. (See, for this symbolism, ``The Temple of Solomon the King,'' The Equinox I:1 - 3) They are the restrictions to the Supernal Triad attempted by the seven lower Sephiroth and Daath. Hence the Stooping Dragon is shown on the Tree of Life below the Abyss after the Fall, and on the floor of the Vault of Christian Rosencreutz. In the older symbolism they are the eight Keys of Edom.

36
The Aspirant is ``anointed with the right sweet oil of the Magister.'' The Magister pertaining to Binah, this oil may be taken to symbolize his Neschamah or aspiration. See the account of the Holy Oil given in Book 4, Part II. (The Holy Oil is the Aspiration of the Magician; it is that which consecrates him to the performance of the Great Work; and such is its efficacy that it also consecrates all the furniture of the Temple and the instruments thereof. It is also the grace or chrism; for this aspiration is not ambition; it is a quality bestowed from above...It is the pure light translated into terms of desire. It is not the Will of the Magician, the desire of the lower to reach the higher; but it is that spark of the higher in the Magician which wishes to unite the lower with itself.) Also the essential property of oil is to diminish friction and increase ease of movement. It is therefore the precisely right reply to this type of attack.

Furthermore, the Aspirant compares himself to a stone, which refers to the cubic stone symbolic of perfect adeptship, being the squared and equilibrated perfection of the spiritual Masonry; it is bounded by six squares which signify protection by Macroprosopus. See also the symbolism of the Stone in the Zohar, a subject far too extensive to make more than this single indication practicable. There is, furthermore, an identification of the Stone with the Sacred Phallus and of the Sun as worshipped in the Temple of Diana at Ephesus and in the word ABRASAX. In our own holy books, see V:6 and 58 of this Book and Liber VII V:2. (We made as a temple of stones in the shape of the Universe, even as thou didst wear openly and I concealed). In this last connection note the proper juxtaposition of stones as symbolic of the Great Work. This is to be found also in The Voice of Silence, where those who have attained build themselves into a wall to protect mankind. See also Liber VII VII:6. (We know why all is hidden in the stone, within the coffin, within the mighty sepulchre, and we too answer Olalam! Imal! Tutulu! as it is written in the ancient book).

This stone is a missile in the ``sling of a boy of the woodlands'' who may be taken to represent the most youthful and active form of Pan, i.e. the aspirant considers himself as flung forth from the infinite and released from his swathings. (Cf. Liber XVII, VII:3 - 5) that he may perform the Great Work.

37
The aspirant is smooth; his qualities have been perfectly harmonised. He is hard, having perfected his resistance to extreme pressure. The analogy is with ivory. Ivory is the substance of the tooth, the letter Shin of the Holy Spirit and also of the substance of the skeleton on which his being is being built. The sound Sh moreover represents the power of silence as well as the activity and alertness which accompany the will to manifest oneself through one's True Will. I here quote from my original notes on the intrinsic meaning of the letter: S is the serpent-hiss, the sharp breath, teeth bared yet clenched, which is the natural token of alarm, hate, defiance, natural to a man who meets his fellow-aberration from legitimate monkeyhood. By it he recognizes his brother, and names him accordingly, when need was. (Later, when alarm had died, we have still sh!'' -- Hush! -- not a call for Silence, which it breaks, but a claim on the Attention of other men.) In S is this idea of fear and anger, combines these ideas; so the first S-gods were storm-gods.

Later, this breath, air moving in men, might be known for a proof that he lived; then this breath-letter, S, might come to mean life.'' For instance, God breathes on Adam to make him a living soul,'' and Elisha raises a boy to life by breathing on him. The Ruach Elohim again is a Breath that broods Chaos. At last we find a Holy Ghost begetting by dint of a breath. And was not Maut the Mother-Vulture impregnated by the wind? Perhaps too the hiss of the rain which fertilizes earth, as even a savage must observe in tropical lands where the result is so swift, may have helped him to the convention that S should mean life. This rain comes from the air which he breathes, though from beyond him; it seems then to him natural to make Zeus or Shu rain-gods and life-gods as well as air-gods, storm-gods, names for the fierce, the fearful anger which at first only meant ``an enemy'' -- his fellow-man!'' (Diary, June 1920).

The Evil Genius is accordingly unable to dominate the aspirant. He having proved his virtue is now ready to receive the Holy Guardian Angel. Firstly is the noise of His coming. For the Lord shall descend from Heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God.'' The Lord'' is Adonai -- which is the Hebrew for my Lord'; and He descends from Heaven, the supernal Eden, the Sahasrara Cakkra in man, with a shout,' a voice' and a trump,' again airy symbols, for it is air that carries sound. These sounds refer to those heard by the Adept at the moment of rapture.'' (Book 4, Part II). This by itself is sufficient to destroy the illusion of the Evil Genius. The abyss of the great void'' is unfolded before the aspirant, i.e., all positive phenomena disappear. What remains is the infinite space'' of Nuit. The continuous body of infinite possibilities."

RobertAllen

@gurugeorge said

"
Spirit may therefore be manifested either as the Holy Guardian Angel or as the Evil Persona, the Dweller on the Threshold, portrayed sensationally for trade by Sir Edward Bulwer-Lytton in his romance Zanoni. The doctrine is also frequently found in folk-lore, where man is represented as attended by both a good and an evil genius. The horror of the latter is intensified by his function as the alternative to the Holy Guardian Angel. Now, in the case of Exempt Adept, should he be beaten back from the City of the Pyramids by failure to comply perfectly with the formula of love under will'' he remains lost in the Abyss with no future possibility than to identify himself in turn with each incoherent and unintelligible phenomenon that appears in the sensorium of the man, who has been disintegrated as the first to each and every imperfection which claims to be. Entirely different is the case of the Dominus Liminis whose operation, if unsucessful, may be a simple failure perhaps due to no serious error of his own. Apart from slight discouragement he should be able to try again without disadvantage. Indeed he should have used his failure as a means of instruction. But he may also fail from not having thoroughly assimilated the injunction of the Hieraeus in the ceremony of his initiation into the Grade of Neophyte: Fear is failure and the forerunner of failure. Be thou therefore without fear! for in the heart of the coward Virtue abideth not!''
"

The term Shadow is often used as a catch all for any form of negativity in the psychological makeup. I find this to be an abuse of the term. As I understand it the Shadow is comprised of repressed character traits and has its abode in the personal subconscious. This is very different than how the term tends to be used, which is to refer to any self-destructive tendency. I'm suggesting that there may be shadow-like entities, which are nevertheless not the classical, psychological shadow referred to by Freud and Jung. There might be something else, that is not about the repressed contents of the subconscious, but which is much greater and much more dangerous. Namely, something inside us, so close to us that we almost never even suspect it is there, but whose sole ambition is to destroy us—something that cannot be analyzed or redeemed by a process of compassionate understanding and reintegration.

In the work I have done that can be described as psychological I think I have located in myself at least one such, semi-autonomous entity whose sole purpose is to kill me. I have also had discussions with Jungian analysts where they asserted the existence of archetypes totally hostile to the individual, not the shadow, but one or more of the immortal archetypes who are just bad ass mother fuckers. For example, something referred to as "The Dark Feminine Power" in reference to a dream I had many years ago. This discussion was not part of an analysis, but was a hypothetical question I put to the analyst out of curiosity on how she would interpret a given image. Her take on the dream image was that it's appearance usually indicated a fatal encounter with a death archetype, except I had some other mitigating images in the dream that suggested I had somehow dodged the bullet.

The Dweller on the Threshold is a specialized term that seems limited to crisis having to do with moments of immanent attainment, either the crossing of the abyss, or the K&C of the HGA. But I wonder if it can be limited only to these moments. Doesn't it make sense that we might be locked in some sort of struggle with this thing every other moment of our lives, just not as dramatically?

Similarly, my wife struggles with issues of self-worth that threaten to undermine her entire life's work. She recently made what I consider an huge leap forward in dealing with this fatalism. She understood that the real fight was not external to herself, which was where she had always located it, but was actually with another part of herself. This revelation had somehow put things into perspective for her and allowed her to remove the personal equation from her dealings with the world. It made it much easier for her to handle the dark thought that constantly whispers in her ear that she has failed.

When we act in ways that hurt rather than help our cause in any endeavor, might this will to failure be another instance of the Dweller on the Threshold?

Love and Will

Edward Mason

Robert, 93,

My own impression is that the Dweller is most obviously manifest and experienced in the working of the approach to Tiphereth. But to confine it entirely to that phase would be misleading.

The key here lies in our relationship to the HGA. The Dweller will manifest according to the nature of that relationship. I can imagine a relatively balanced, single-minded individual having one main encounter over a period of months or (conceivably) years. Other people might have partial encounters before commencing work with the path of Samekh, and then continue to have them after some measure of 'entry' to Tiphereth has occurred. This would apply on both the Golden Dawn level of working as well as the A.A. level, though obviously with less intensity in the former case, and presumably without the continued encounters in the latter.

I don't think we can draw a clear line between the Shadow per se and the Dweller. The approach along Samekh and the other paths (Death and the Devil) that lead into Tiphereth will summarize a lot of our own fears and resistance, for example. I strongly doubt, though, that anyone but a deeply obsessional paranoiac would be "locked in some sort of struggle with this thing every other moment of our lives, just not as dramatically?"

Are there other inimical archetypes or constellations of forces to be faced along the way? Yes, definitely. Can or do they comprise part of the Dweller? I'd say yes. My own sense of the Dweller is that part of its character is its indefinable nature, plus its ability to extend itself to any area of fear, mistrust or dark fantasy in the psyche of the aspirant.

93 93/93,
Edward

Frater MVKDSh

well said:)

RobertAllen

@Edward Mason said

"
I don't think we can draw a clear line between the Shadow per se and the Dweller. The approach along Samekh and the other paths (Death and the Devil) that lead into Tiphereth will summarize a lot of our own fears and resistance, for example. I strongly doubt, though, that anyone but a deeply obsessional paranoiac would be "locked in some sort of struggle with this thing every other moment of our lives, just not as dramatically?"
"

That moment when one is approaching Tiphareth, in some structural sense of treading a path, is certainly a critical moment, but it seems the metaphor can be applied too narrowly, and we are left wondering where exactly we are going to draw the line. I mean, does the Dweller only attack during that last mad dash at the very end of the course when one is almost done with the path of Samekh, or is it awake and active as soon as one sets his/her first foot on the path, does it activate whenever one is doing anything designed to bring one closer to realizing ones angel no matter where one is on the Tree, or does it have some way of making everything a person does that is associated with performing the Great Work more difficult?

We don't need to be actively aware of an alien, and hostile will before the work becomes hard and challenging. It might be that the image of the Dweller only makes a dramatic entrance in the moment of crisis, but the same dynamic might be at work at other times, though at a low enough level that it appears manageable and can be explained away as generalized human resistance to the demands of the routine.

It could be argued that, even before a person consciously pledges to accomplish the Great Work, he/she is on the path. They just don't know it. In this case everything a person does either helps or hurts ones future efforts since their actions will either promote or trash the very work ethic that will be required when work is begun in earnest. The angel and the Dweller might be at work at this early stage, even if they are only understood as a vague moral sense or weakness for scotch.

For example, dancing has nothing obvious in common with magickal practice, but the discipline required to succeed at dance is not trifling. There were moments when I could have walked away from it all. I didn't, and now the idea of holding on to the bitter end is a strength I can make use of. I know I was severely challenged during that part of my life, thank god I persisted. I am speculating about the root of all resistance and obstacle. It seems silly that one term will be used only during one brief period when something similar was probably at work ones entire life.

I think the comment about paranoia is unfounded. Either you feel the concept I am suggesting will tend to lead to paranoia or it doesn't makes much sense. My rebuttal is a bit along the lines of the gun lobby—only crazy people are "deeply obsessional paranoiac."

And I have to disagree on the notion of the shadow as being related to the Dweller if only because the term was coined by a tradition which was fairly precise in what it was describing, even if we are not. If you are thinking that 'shadow' is an apt descriptor for the Dweller I agree with you, there is something shadowy about it. But "according to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to projection: turning a personal inferiority into a perceived moral deficiency in someone else." (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_%28psychology%29). The two entities are enough different that any overlap can be summarily dismissed as insignificant, imo.

Love and Will

Frater MVKDSh

" I mean, does the Dweller only attack during that last mad dash at the very end of the course when one is almost done with the path of Samekh, or is it awake and active as soon as one sets his/her first foot on the path, does it activate whenever one is doing anything designed to bring one closer to realizing ones angel no matter where one is on the Tree, or does it have some way of making everything a person does that is associated with performing the Great Work more difficult?"

Its been my experience that after every Initiation there has been an ordeal before the enlightenment. Sometimes it is almost unnoticeable and at other times I feel like my world is coming to an end.....and it can last for a long time.

I don't know if this is the "shadow" u guys/girls are talking about. In my worldview (a view that includes reincarnation) I see this as a symptom of the acceleration of Karma. An attempt to deal with an issue that usually takes lifetimes in a short period of time.

My intellect though tells me that this "shadow" or "ordeal" is the result of my understanding of the world (reality) collapsing and being replaced with a new reality. Trying to rebuild is difficult at times.....

Mike

The posts here (especially the very long Crowley excerpts) are very intriguing, and describe a lot of elements in my life. I went through a very, very deep period of depression that began a few years ago and is still in the "slowly fading away over time" phase, and many of its elements seem to be related to elements associated with the Evil Genius.

I'm just grateful that my Angel appears to have scooped me out of it at just the right time, after I had completely exhausted myself and was left with no direction nor motivation to continue in the darkness.

93, 93/93.

RobertAllen

@FraterYod said

"Its been my experience that after every Initiation there has been an ordeal before the enlightenment. Sometimes it is almost unnoticeable and at other times I feel like my world is coming to an end.....and it can last for a long time.

I don't know if this is the "shadow" u guys/girls are talking about."

I'm pretty sure it is not what we are talking about, though I am open to being corrected on this. There is a lot of other speculation about the effects of initiation. Maybe you should start a thread.

Love and Will

Edward Mason

Robert, 93,

I feel some reluctance to say a lot here. The processes we're talking about are wide-ranging, and will vary from aspirant to aspirant. We're talking about a crucial step in individuation, not a basic elemental sephirothic experience. Just as nobody wants to define the HGA, because it would set up false expectations as well as being essentially impossible, something similar applies with the approach to Tiphereth.

"I mean, does the Dweller only attack during that last mad dash at the very end of the course when one is almost done with the path of Samekh, or is it awake and active as soon as one sets his/her first foot on the path... "

I can only refer to my own process, done at the Golden Dawn level - that is, as a TOT member. Over time I became aware of a constellation of oppositional forces, which in my case tended to manifest itself in external life-problems that mirrored my inner state, though it took me time to see this clearly. At no point did I explicitly find myself facing anything like a dark, brooding figure out of the Lovecraftian tradition. The experience changed focus as I worked through various stages.

"...does it activate whenever one is doing anything designed to bring one closer to realizing ones angel no matter where one is on the Tree, or does it have some way of making everything a person does that is associated with performing the Great Work more difficult?"

The experience will be uniquely individual. It is about preparing the psyche for a shift, and that preparation is going to be relevant to the psyche in question.

"And I have to disagree on the notion of the shadow as being related to the Dweller if only because the term was coined by a tradition which was fairly precise in what it was describing, even if we are not. If you are thinking that 'shadow' is an apt descriptor for the Dweller I agree with you, there is something shadowy about it. But "according to Jung, the shadow, in being instinctive and irrational, is prone to projection: turning a personal inferiority into a perceived moral deficiency in someone else." The two entities are enough different that any overlap can be summarily dismissed as insignificant, imo."

I disagree with your final comment here. How it works at the A.A. level, I'm not qualified to say, but on the GD level, the idea that anybody is dealing with a discrete entity without the accretion of various complexes and other Shadow contents, is wrong. I personally found a fair bit of projection occurring, hence the external life-problems I mentioned above. The whole nature of the Dweller, and our encounters with it, is that it activates the denizens of the inner zoo.

93 93/93,
Edward

RobertAllen

@Edward Mason said

"I disagree with your final comment here. How it works at the A.A. level, I'm not qualified to say, but on the GD level, the idea that anybody is dealing with a discrete entity without the accretion of various complexes and other Shadow contents, is wrong. I personally found a fair bit of projection occurring, hence the external life-problems I mentioned above. The whole nature of the Dweller, and our encounters with it, is that it activates the denizens of the inner zoo."

Well Edward, this feels like a cul de sac. I cannot argue against your experience because mine is limited to my own efforts and the life experiences of the people about me that I can readily observe, not part of an initiatory system. I guess I can only say, okay, on this point you may be right, but I don't really know because I don't know.

Most of my other comments in my last post were not so dissimilar from what you wrote in your post before mine. I just spun the logic differently to suggest a connection between various phenomenon, whereas your logic seemed to suggest their might not be a connection. Maybe I will be in a position to assert my point of view with more authority some day, and maybe not.

Love and Will

the atlas itch

@Escarabaj said

"Hi All,

I've noticed reference to the "dweller on the threshold" in a couple books on Astral projection / OBE.

This is meant to be some sort of being which you must confront, which represents the sum total of fears, anxieties, etc. I assume this is, from an initiatory point of view, early on in one's path.

I am curious where this concept originated from, what precisely it might be, and whether Crowley references this concept by another name. (I don't recall mention of it in Thelemic lit.)"

I first ran across the concept in Steiner's Knowledge of the Higher Worlds, but he called it the Guardian of the Threshold:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_of_the_Threshold

I don't think this concept, at least as Steiner defined it, has anything to do with the Jungian Shadow. Rather, if physical death is no longer the limit point for dictating morality, every magickal act is seen to work toward generating a current of destiny and karma. That's what I think the Guardian or Dweller is about - a warning.

Frater MVKDSh

"I don't think this concept, at least as Steiner defined it, has anything to do with the Jungian Shadow. Rather, if physical death is no longer the limit point for dictating morality, every magical act is seen to work toward generating a current of destiny and karma. That's what I think the Guardian or Dweller is about - a warning."

There is alot being said here even if u dont think it is relevant to the discussion;)

malnarcissist

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

Is this thread necromancy? I dunno. Sorry if it is.

Is there a specific place this Dweller becomes apparent? I know I've seen the term until recently, but I thought it was a reference to something like the Watcher Without. Is it something that would happen during a self-discovery period, despite not having done anything ritual-like for three months? I don't think I need to not share it, but I'll try to not share too much.

I ask, because.. Hrm... 11 days ago [I think. does it matter? If so, I can go get my book] I had some kind of religious experience. The main thing I feel like typing [Though, I did record it all] is because the Crowley stuff above makes it sound the same.

"Per contra the Evil Genius is vague, unreal and inactive. His characteristics are horror and emptiness. His eyes are ghastly, which I take in its strict sense as connected with geist. And this epithet is peculiarly abhorrent since the sense of sight is attributed to Fire, and should be clear-cut and luminous. Such activities as he commands are slow, cozy and vermicular. They resemble wells of poisoned water, i.e. they lurk and receive as little light as possible, whereas the ideal eye should dart forth flame. "

I don't want to share too much, because what was said is a bit too personal for interweb usage, but the..... "Commands," were not very active, in fact they were the opposite [If I say it was dainty would that make sense?]. The most important thing for this though were the eyes. They were so black and shiny [And big about as big as my eye sockets], but nothing reflected from them. I couldn't see the environment from the eyes, nor myself EVEN when I was looking right in them. I had a friend sketch the face [Well, she knew I wanted a picture of a geisha] that I re-did to have the features I saw, and the image still unsettles me.

"Anatomically he resembles a fish, a cold-blooded inhabitant of the passive element."

This is why I'm confused [In addition to all the talking about about Adepts. This tells me that I may be looking in another wrong place] because it looked nothing like a fish. It looked like a woman. A flawless, make-up'd almost porcelain Japanese woman. With bad eyes. I really can't share enough about how much those eyes bother me.

The only other piece of interest about the thing was in the center of her forehead some thing that looked like a ruby cut into a kite shape, and very red lips [Though, I assume that was a make-up thing], but it wasn't scary like the eyes.

Does the environment around the event matter? It wasn't dark or scary, but it was bright and green [With cherry blossoms]

Sorry if this is weird, but this sounded too much like what I just read, so I needed to ask. The biggest reason I don't think it was just a silly hallucination is because it- 1. Felt off. Just before it happened, it was like something "Clicked." I was feeling emotional, but it just "Clicked," I felt light, and things got weird. 2. After the event, I wasn't feeling emotional, I felt energized and tired; and most importantly I've noticed several changes in attitude towards doing new things. 3. I am used to dream-like hallucinations [As in, sometimes when I'm laying in the dark I can dream without sleeping. Or something. I dunno. It's more fun than useful] , and this didn't have my normal marks [Er, that is, there was NOTHING I could latch onto except.. Well, I don't know what it was, it was hard to tell even where I was once a certain point started, but I think it may have been a sense of "Wrongness."] that I use to tell if what is happening is a dream or drug-fueled freak out.

Thanks for any advice. I may have another question, too, but I want to see where this goes.

Love is the Law, Love under Will.

RobertAllen

@malnarcissis said

"Sorry if this is weird, but this sounded too much like what I just read, so I needed to ask. The biggest reason I don't think it was just a silly hallucination is because it- 1. Felt off. Just before it happened, it was like something "Clicked." I was feeling emotional, but it just "Clicked," I felt light, and things got weird. 2. After the event, I wasn't feeling emotional, I felt energized and tired; and most importantly I've noticed several changes in attitude towards doing new things. 3. I am used to dream-like hallucinations [As in, sometimes when I'm laying in the dark I can dream without sleeping. Or something. I dunno. It's more fun than useful] , and this didn't have my normal marks [Er, that is, there was NOTHING I could latch onto except.. Well, I don't know what it was, it was hard to tell even where I was once a certain point started, but I think it may have been a sense of "Wrongness."] that I use to tell if what is happening is a dream or drug-fueled freak out."

I'm don't think your experience fits into the whole conceit about the dweller. For one thing, it doesn't sound as if you are on the verge of some major mystical attainment. My argument is that you don't need to be, but others think it is important. Rather, it sounds to me like an unguarded, and uncontrolled astral experience. Astral experiences can be very intense and some distinguish themselves as something more than what one is used to—exceptional even.

I say this because I have had a similar experience, as far as I understand your account. It happened when I was just wandering a lot. Since that time I always work in a prepared space, always have a specific place I wish to go, and always go armed—prepared with appropriate divine names, invoking and banishing pentagrams, and so on depending on where I am exploring.

Love and Will

Frater 639

93,

Love is the law, love under will.

malnarcissist

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.

"For one thing, it doesn't sound as if you are on the verge of some major mystical attainment."

That's part of the reason I am asking. What counts as "Major," or "Mystical?" I don't really know, XD. I'd say something big happened, as several tings have changed for the better. I don't know, after I got up it was a lot harder to do a lot of things I've done [Small list: I can't argue. It's too hard, I don't seem to dislike children, and as far as I can tell am not afraid of porcelain dolls anymore. At least I've seen them and haven't started hyper ventilating].

"Rather, it sounds to me like an unguarded, and uncontrolled astral experience."

That's one of my basic guesses, which is why I've been trying to figure out what was what, especially in regard to the figure. I found a description from a theosophical-thing, and it sounded slightly familiar that mentioned this. Searched here, found this thread, which described the eyes.

Also, does it count if it becomes controlled? I mean, there was a chain of events; the middle as the only time I spent enveloped at all. Of course, this just gives me an inkling to start another thread asking for what any of the symbols even meant. I mean, just before I had lamented how laziness was going to get me killed; so I find it amusing Geisha apparently means "Entertainer." [All I knew about geishas until 10 days ago was that the more high end ones wouldn't touch your penis. But that wasn't involved, really.]

"I say this because I have had a similar experience, as far as I understand your account. "

Aw, man. Then could I ask your help privately? I wrote down what happened, because I was afraid that after a few weeks I would try to chalk it up to "Imagination," and I wanted to make sure it was internally consistent after it all.

"Since that time I always work in a prepared space"

I wasn't working. That's what has me the most confused. Where I live Winter has been horribly long. That day was the first day it was just warm enough to walk, so it was a lot like a lot of pent up energy got to get let out. Though, after the experience, I've been working much more than ever. Heck, the stuff I've done before just feels different; though, that could be because of a perception change [Which is what I really care about. It's like after this event, all of the things I had realized {Er, if I say I like psychonauting would that make sense? I don't really know how to say "A lot of ideas have been stripped away in a process, and this felt like some kind of synthesizing of those elements," in a way that isn't vague and silly.}]

"always have a specific place I wish to go"

Oh, I had that. XD. Sleep. It set me back another two hours After it all, I was tired and energetic- I scribbled down what happened, and drew a bad version of the face, so I could describe to a friend what face I needed drawn [Because I don't draw very well. It's terrible, lol.]

"and always go armed"

How do I do that? XD. Sorry if this is basic, but I have always avoided astral looking stuff, because it's.... Well, frankly it looks a bit kooky to me at times. If this is that, though, then I guess I don't really have a choice if I'll be getting pulled into dreamscapes whenever I feel "Raw," emotion.

"prepared with appropriate divine names"

Erm... I don't think I'll comment here. I don't know what the word even is.

"invoking and banishing pentagrams"

During the event I managed to make one pentagram. I guess part of the reason I've been doing the LBRP again is because it perturbed me that the star was brown fire, not blue.

Thanks for the answer, man. If I seem attached to a view, just tell me; I have zero experience with this other than "Don't take it too seriously," which I am trying to do, except for it seems to be at least contributing to the concept of "Words and Motions."

Any one else think it is an astral vision? If so, what can be done to not see that thing again? I would be happy to never see it again.

"Frater 639's post."

Did I say something wrong? I am sorry.

Love is the Law, Love under Will.

Frater 639

93,

@malnarcissis said

"Did I say something wrong? I am sorry. "

My comment wasn't directed to anything said. It was actually directed to my own experience regarding what could be described as the "dweller on the threshold". If I can offer one suggestion, try not to get too involved with the objective description of these "ideas".

Q. Am I wrong? Am I doing it right?
A. This must be the answer! This is it!

PARADIGM.

Belief is a tool, tools are to be used by the practitioner.
Truth is relative.
Some are Artists with a saw, some with words.
Magick is Art.

All these are "answers". Each create a belief and a subsequent paradigm.
In other words, nothing is wrong.
And, then again, nothing is right.
We only have points and the perspectives related to those points.
The Book of the Law is brilliant in regard to this "point".

And never apologize for seeking.

*46. Dost thou fail? Art thou sorry? Is fear in thine heart?

Where I am these are not. *

-- Liber AL Chap II

In regard to your questions, a helpful thing to ask in all astral work:
How helpful is it?

*The true, the final test, of the Truth of one's visions is their Value. The most glorious experience on the Astral plane, let it dazzle and thrill as it may, is not necessarily in accordance with the True Will of the seer; if not, though it be never so true objectively, it is not true for him, because not useful for him. (Said we not a while ago that Truth was no more than the Most Convenient Manner of Statement?)

It may intoxicate and exalt the Seer, it may inspire and fortify him in every way, it may throw light upon most holy mysteries, yet withal be no more than an interpretation of the individual to himself, the formula not of Abraham but of Onan.

These plastic "Portraits of the Artist as a Young Man" are well enough for those who have heard "Know Thyself". They are necessary, even, to assist that analysis of one's nature which the Probationer of A.'. A.'. is sworn to accomplish. But "Love is the law, love under will." And Our Lady Nuit is "... divided for love's sake, for the chance of union." These mirror-mirages are therefore not Works of Magick, according to the Law of Thelema: the true Magick of Horus requires the passionate union of opposites.*

-- MTP, Appendix III - Notes for an Astral Atlas

I hope this is helpful. Good luck on your Path.

Love is the law, love under will.