New- Any help appreciated
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@Narcissus said
"1.) So I've been reading up on some rituals like the Lesser Banishing rituals of pentagram and hexagram in Regardie's book on the Golden Dawn --I'm not dabbling just reading-- and I've noticed that there aren't really "black magick" spells or anything in the books I've read, just things like the LBRP. I was wondering if this is something that has to be taught in person or is there a source where I can read on magick other than cleansing rituals. I'm not looking to smite anyone or anything. I've just heard of his reputation for being the "beast" and a black magician etc. I'd like to know if there are "standardized" rituals that everyone knows or if this system is a do it yourself kind of thin. Perhaps my second question will provide more information about me."
He wasn't a black magician. He thought it a perfectly silly thing to be. That's the main reason you aren't finding such things.
"2.) I'm a certified atheist, but I'm utterly fascinated with Crowley. I'm curious as to how deep this magick goes. I'm not actively looking for proof (I'm neither antagonistic nor patronizing) but I was also wondering if there was anything minuscule that might convince me other wise. Perhaps a better description is an atheist that wants to follow a magick path. That sounds absurd, I'm sure, but it's the truth.
"It goes way deep. There are no quick proofs, though. This is as much a matter of training and discipline as any other thing. You are more or less asking whether a non-athlete of average aptitude could go out on the first day of track and field practice and break a poll vault record on the first or second try.
On the other hand, if you put in, say, a year of daily effort and hard work, you won't lack for proofs.
PS - Where did you get your certification? Was it a one-yer or two-year program?
PPS - On reading the above, now that I'm at work, I realize that I really don't know what would convince you. I was working on the unconscious assumption that you would require substantial demonstration. Possibly there is something miniscule that would convince you but, in that case, I encourage you not to be convinced by it.
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I think a good biography of Crowley, one that is balanced and accurate would be helpful. I remember The Eye in the Triangle by Isreal Regardie as being very helpful in terms of putting Crowley into some sort of reasonable perspective. There is a lot of disinformation out there and the sooner you can cut through all the BS the better. It's also a well written book you will most likely enjoy reading!
@Narcissus said
"I'm a certified atheist, but I'm utterly fascinated with Crowley. I'm curious as to how deep this magick goes. I'm not actively looking for proof (I'm neither antagonistic nor patronizing) but I was also wondering if there was anything minuscule that might convince me other wise. Perhaps a better description is an atheist that wants to follow a magick path. That sounds absurd, I'm sure, but it's the truth."
I think being an atheist is a perfectly reasonable attitude to take, or more precisely, it doesn't really matter what attitude you hold because magick is a hands on, experiential practice—you do certain things and results follow.
@Jim Eshelman said
"On the other hand, if you put in, say, a year of daily effort and hard work, you won't lack for proofs."
There is really no way around this fact. You will somehow have to agree with yourself that you are going to do some work. If you can get past the apparent silliness of the name Magick, and admit to yourself that there is perhaps some kind of personal development that is being hinted at by such practices that you are interested in, you will not be lacking in help and information on how best to proceed.
This forum is a great place to air questions on procedure, as well as get recommendations for other good books.
Love and Will
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93,
@Frater Aster Lux said
"Narcissus wrote:
So I've taken an interest in Crowley-ian magick lately. I have two main questions I'm hoping people can answer.1.) So I've been reading up on some rituals like the Lesser Banishing rituals of pentagram and hexagram in Regardie's book on the Golden Dawn --I'm not dabbling just reading-- and I've noticed that there aren't really "black magick" spells or anything in the books I've read, just things like the LBRP. I was wondering if this is something that has to be taught in person or is there a source where I can read on magick other than cleansing rituals. I'm not looking to smite anyone or anything. I've just heard of his reputation for being the "beast" and a black magician etc. I'd like to know if there are "standardized" rituals that everyone knows or if this system is a do it yourself kind of thin. Perhaps my second question will provide more information about me.
What exactly is your interest in learning this sort of thing? It sounds to me like you'd be very disappointed to learn the actual truth. Crowley was a philosopher, and a poet. If you want to learn about him, read his books (and forget EVERYTHING you think you know about anything."
I don't know that our friend Narcissus here would necessarily be disappointed -- I first stumbled into Crowley's writings only because I had a 'perverse' curiosity in Magick, thinking there was some kind of "black magic" elements involved. Lo and behold, I eventually discovered Crowley's Magick is inseparable from his philosophy, and his philosophy was exactly what I had come to have after years of personal introspective, etc. -- only taken to the nth degree. And Magick functions as a practical means of exploring one's own philosophy -- in fact, you needn't accept any pre-conceived notions about spirituality or religion (doing so may in certain cases even be a hindrance to the scientific approach Crowley taught).
If I hadn't been perversely curious about "black magick" initially, I'd never have discovered the Great Work... I can't help thinking that this was just the way I was led to it, suited to myself. I'm sure others can relate.
93 93/93
AL H-ShMATh
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93 93/93
"If I hadn't been perversely curious about "black magick" initially, I'd never have discovered the Great Work... I can't help thinking that this was just the way I was led to it, suited to myself. I'm sure others can relate.
"I can relate to that. Heck I was only 19. Now at 39 I wouldn't even "think" of something like that. But you have to understand that this is a sensitive subject for obvious reasons.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater Aster Lux said
"I'm just saying that people who expect to much kind of miss the point."
I agree with that, and with the fact that there's tons of people out there who misinterpret Crowley as being some kind of goth-rock icon of blasphemy. I wasn't actually looking for "evil" or whatnot myself, but had always had a strange attraction to Magick, though I didn't know why. Might've been that it seemed "cool" or whatever, but there was just something I couldn't put my finger on that drew me to it. So I wasn't actually seeking some Satanic guru or black magic rock show; just indulgence of my curiosity. I think I recognize that feeling in Narcissus' statements above.
But it's true that the vast majority of "average folks" out there have pre-conceived ideas about what Magick is, which are of course mistaken. But any potential future magician has to be introduced to it somehow!
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@Frater Aster Lux said
"The method of Science, the aim of Religion... that sums it up pretty good.
"Just noticed that at the end of your post
One of the best lines out there. Unfortunately, anyone who doesn't know thing-one about what Magick is wouldn't have heard the line, and I'm guessing would likely see it as being contradictory to their preconceived ideas about "what magic is." -
"Maybe the real story is kind of boring to them. I see a lot of crappy bands relying on a negative image of Crowley to sell their corny records or horror-show antics. It's nice that more and more people are turned on to Crowley, but it doesn't seem to really represent thelema in the best way."
I don't know how it is possible to be bored with Thelema. I myself think this attraction to the Goetia that a lot seem to have is related to all these cultural images that surround us. If you think about it,you might think this was meant to be that way. Only a few are chosen.
"9. This Knowledge is not for all men; few indeed are called, but of these few many are chosen.
--Liber Porta Lucis"
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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@Frater Aster Lux said
"For those interested in only the light and happy side of things, they eventually get forced outside the box in a different way. So really, I guess balance is key. Magick"
Totally! Ever and as always. I was also thinking of II:53: "But I will hide thee in a mask of sorrow: they that see thee shall fear thou art fallen: but I lift thee up."
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"For those interested in only the light and happy side of things, they eventually get forced outside the box in a different way. So really, I guess balance is key..."
Yea. I agree. Also if you are working the Goetia it was just a coincidence that I brought this up.
"# I reveal unto you a great mystery. Ye stand between the abyss of height and the abyss of depth.
- In either awaits you a Companion; and that Companion is Yourself.
- Ye can have no other Companion.
- Many have arisen, being wise. They have said «Seek out the glittering Image in the place ever golden, and unite yourselves with It.»
- Many have arisen, being foolish. They have said, «Stoop down unto the darkly splendid world, and be wedded to that Blind Creature of the Slime.»
- I who am beyond Wisdom and Folly, arise and say unto you: achieve both weddings! Unite yourselves with both!
- Beware, beware, I say, lest ye seek after the one and lose the other!
- My adepts stand upright; their head above the heavens, their feet below the hells.
- But since one is naturally attracted to the Angel, another to the Demon, let the first strengthen the lower link, the last attach more firmly to the higher.
--Liber Tzaddi
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This passage warns against working the Goetia (as well as others) until you attain the K&C of your HGA. But thats obvious to anyone I think. But a warning is just a warning. Nothing more.
There is no law beyond Do what thou wilt.
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"I'm curious as to how deep this magick goes. I'm not actively looking for proof (I'm neither antagonistic nor patronizing) but I was also wondering if there was anything minuscule that might convince me other wise."
Get yourself a notebook. Do those rituals and record your practices. This is key. Browse through your journal every now and then to track your progress. You'll find your proof.
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Hey well thank you all for your well thought out answers. To answer the question about atheism, I'm skeptical about everything. It's not so much that I think the rituals would work, its more that I'm hoping they will. And by proof, I mean a token or sign that these work. I don't mean it in any perverse manner and I apologize if it sounds that way. Even if he wasn't a rock star evil villain type, Crowley is interesting to me and my interest is becoming a spiritual person, I don't quite know if the prerequisite for that is a believe in Deity. In any case I want to give this a shot.
So start off with Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram? Can anyone tell me what exactly it's supposed to do. I think I understand the gist of it --clearing the area for magickal work-- but I'm guessing that is just a glib generalization. Perhaps a deeper something I'm supposed to find?
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@Narcissus said
"Hey well thank you all for your well thought out answers. To answer the question about atheism, I'm skeptical about everything. It's not so much that I think the rituals would work, its more that I'm hoping they will. And by proof, I mean a token or sign that these work. I don't mean it in any perverse manner and I apologize if it sounds that way. Even if he wasn't a rock star evil villain type, Crowley is interesting to me and my interest is becoming a spiritual person, I don't quite know if the prerequisite for that is a believe in Deity. In any case I want to give this a shot.
So start off with Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram? Can anyone tell me what exactly it's supposed to do. I think I understand the gist of it --clearing the area for magical work-- but I'm guessing that is just a glib generalization. Perhaps a deeper something I'm supposed to find?"
Crowley makes a declaration of atheism in john st john, where he likens magical phenomena to the formation of hoar frost and glacier tables.
Also in the quote:
w]hether you are a Christian or a Buddhist, a Theist or (as I am myself, thank God!) an Atheist, the attainment of this one state [of mystical realization] is as open to you as is nightmare, or madness, or intoxication.
And yes, the banishing ritual of the pentegram has a purifying function, but also invokes angelic guardians. It's a great way to practice visualization and vibration of names as well.
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@Narcissus said
"Even if he wasn't a rock star evil villain type, Crowley is interesting to me and my interest is becoming a spiritual person, I don't quite know if the prerequisite for that is a believe in Deity. In any case I want to give this a shot."
Depends how you define "Deity." If you mean the Judeo-Christian conception of a God, then that's probably not necessary... although everything overlaps with everything else in various spots.
@Narcissus said
"So start off with Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram? Can anyone tell me what exactly it's supposed to do. I think I understand the gist of it --clearing the area for magical work-- but I'm guessing that is just a glib generalization. Perhaps a deeper something I'm supposed to find?"
This is a really common question. Working with the ritual daily for a long period of time will go far toward answering it, but in general - it seals you inside a protected space and keeps astral crap from bombarding you. It is kind of like sealing the vessel inside which you are doing a science experiment - it's kind of necessary for everything else that could happen.
It's also an incredibly beautiful ritual once one begins to really grasp what's going on in it. (Not that I have a deep understanding of it, but I'm seeing a lot more now than I ever did, and it continues to grow in beauty by the day.)
93, 93/93.
p.s. Crowley said somewhere that, ultimately, the Theist and the Atheist have no real argument, and there is little to differentiate them. They are just different perspectives on the same thing that's going on. Try to figure out what's going on and worry about labeling afterward.
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@Narcissus said
"So start off with Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram? Can anyone tell me what exactly it's supposed to do. I think I understand the gist of it --clearing the area for magical work-- but I'm guessing that is just a glib generalization. Perhaps a deeper something I'm supposed to find?"
This is a really good post on the LBRP that I found by doing some searching on this site. heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4872&start=0&hilit=Temple+of+Thelema
This site is a great resource for a lot of different information. Being a sceptic can be of great value - as most scientific minded individuals are - and you need to apply this scepticism heavily. Especially to your self, your thoughts, your motivations, etc!
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I believe magick to be, above all, self-actualization through the knowledge of your True self. I think this is pretty much in line with what Crowley meant when he spoke "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." As your true self unfolds and the ego is softened through the practice of ritual and spiritual exercise, the proof of magick will be self-evident.