Jannes and Jambres; the magic practicing priest of egypt
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@Kingsolomon said
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I'm not trying to create an argument, i'm just stating why i started this topic about Jannes and Jambres, I know that the scriptures are tainted. and rabbi's hid true knowledge. I know that. eh, nevermind. It's just foolish to not take everything into consideration.
"Yes, I'm not arguing with the possibility. Levi claimed to have summoned Apollonius of Tyana with rather astonishing results...
My questions have more to do with whether or not you'd be trying to summon fictional characters - or perhaps individuals who have not lived the fictions attributed to them - and well... what might happen if that's true?
A deeper question goes to whether the stories themselves describe Jannes and Jambres as individuals worthy of learning from. I'm sure you have read more than I have about them, but from your own example, one account describes them as ones who could not hear the truth while another describes them as being put down by Metatron - assuming a good reason for doing so. The stories seem to describe them as powerful but missing the big picture - kind of like Balaam himself.
Sounds like most of the stories are concerned with explaining them away. Kind of like, "Yeah... they were powerful enough to trouble Moses, but in the end, they converted, were overthrown, etc. by OUR God." "Their magic was strong, but not as strong as ours" kind of thing...
Seems like you end up in a situation where it falls on you to determine their legitimacy (if you can get them to show), and that just sounds...
ehh... honestly... it just sounds like something beyond my personal range and scope, so I'm encouraging healthy caution and skepticism.
Gold and Silver have I none, but what I have I give to thee. It's kinda scholarly and boring and steeped in historical criticism of Christian and Jewish Scriptures, and it may seem to throw water on your fire, but there you go for what it's worth. May it add whatever it adds to your coming operation.
peace,
Lance
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Kingsolomon said
"There is Power in there magick.. It's pure egyptian.. The home of magick that can probably thelp the furtherance of the A.'. A.'. what do you think Jim."Well, only since you asked: No, I wouldn't agree with this."
Jim - I would be interested to hear your further thoughts on this.
Do you think its better to keep various systems separate and not mix them as a general rule, or because Abramelin advises one should stick with the system he or she was raised in as a child, or because Kabbalah is *superior *to Egyptian? And do you regard the Tree of Life glyph to be unique to the Hebrew tradition or one that can be found in other cultures, but finds its purest expression in Judaism?
My own research has discovered the Tree in Sufism, Assyrian engravings (the famous image of two winged gods with beaks standing over a tree in the Berlin Pergamon), Nordic cultures (Yggdrasil) etc.
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@he atlas itch said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Kingsolomon said
"There is Power in there magick.. It's pure egyptian.. The home of magick that can probably thelp the furtherance of the A.'. A.'. what do you think Jim."Well, only since you asked: No, I wouldn't agree with this."
Jim - I would be interested to hear your further thoughts on this."
Well, there are a number of individual things you said (in the part to which I was responding) with which I don't agree. For example, I don't think this legend is of any likely historic significance. One might well take the historic record of the great John Yoo in the court of George W. Bush and his amazing powers at confirming that torture of Gitmo prisoners is legal. Historical existence (even if it is authentic and undistorted) doesn't mean the historical figure had anything legitimate to contribute.
I also don't agree that the source is any more authentic a form of magic, and I certainly don't agree that it would be of any use to the A.'.A.'. as such (which was your main point). - That training system is essentially indifferent to such points.
"And do you regard the Tree of Life glyph to be unique to the Hebrew tradition or one that can be found in other cultures, but finds its purest expression in Judaism? "
I regard the Tree of Life etc. as of universal importance, and the best foundation we have for Work. The Jews were only the caretakers of the Qabalistic system (and, for that matter, the Hebrew language), which is as close to a universal system as has ever yet appeared.
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OK thanks for the clarification.
Btw I could not help but note one of the names of the Egyptian priests, Iambrhs, is close to Iamblichus who wrote the famous theurgical treatise On The Mysteries of Egypt. The text had a major influence on Nostradamus and his thinking:
www.esotericarchives.com/oracle/iambl_th.htm
Regarding the demon Astaroth living under the waters of the Nile, it sounds like nonsense to me - the name is not even Egyptian. But just because a demon comes from a role playing game does not mean it won't have an effect...
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93
Ha, about the last comment Astorath is not from a video game, I meant that there was a demon closely associate with astorath who lives beneath the nile river. it's in the google searches for Jannes and Jambres or Innnes and Innabres.
I've called up astorath, trust me he's not nothing Final Fantasy or Chrono Trigger or Secret of Mana or Warcraft, He made things happen, lol..
I think you guys for your thoughts it might be a dangerous thing to summon up the two egyptian priest
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@Jim Eshelman said
". The Jews were only the caretakers of the Qabalistic system (and, for that matter, the Hebrew language), which is as close to a universal system as has ever yet appeared."
You admit of course Jim that this is a personal bias?
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@Scapegoa said
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@Jim Eshelman said
". The Jews were only the caretakers of the Qabalistic system (and, for that matter, the Hebrew language), which is as close to a universal system as has ever yet appeared."You admit of course Jim that this is a personal bias?"
Bias? No.
Opinion? Yes, in the same way that the vast majority of statements are opinions. But it's based on a long-term, balanced assessment of the whole terrain, not an a priori prejudice that excludes substantive evidence.
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DWTWSBTWOFL
Why would you want to study the losers?
Moses' snake whipped their asses
When they threw down their rods and they became snakes
Moses' fiery snake ripped those Pharoh's laughing boys snakes a new one.Seriously, I've always kind of considered this act as a blind faith in god move. Still the snake imagery when only a couple chapters before the symbol was tied to adversary...then later Moses erects his staff again and makes a copper snake for the IsRaELites to gawp at and be saved...I really do think this is in reference to Caduceus process Nadis Sushumana winged disc expansion and liberation. Alchemically transmuting the venom.
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It's doubtful that Moses existed. He may have been a composite of several people, or he may have been pure myth.
So I doubt that Jannes and Jambres were historical either.
But Egypt was famous in the ancient world for it's magicians. The Talmud states:
"Ten measures of magic have come into the world. Egypt received nine of these, the rest of the world one measure." (Talmud b. Qid. 49b)If you want to learn about Egyptian magick, it's best to consult the original hieroglyphic texts. Bob Brier wrote a good introductory book, for an overview.
Still, Bible stories are interesting, and it's interesting that people wanted to put names to the Egyptian magicians mentioned in Exodus, and to know more about them.
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I am a Jewish Kabbalist and am fluent in Hebrew, and I can supply you with information about Jannes and Jambres. The reason that it is so difficult to find more information about them is that like the majority of occultists, you are not Hebraists. This is not intended as a slight. A monolingual person has my respect just as much as a multilingual person.
First of all, the correct Hebrew names are Yochane and Mamre. Yochane is a variant of John, and Mamre is a name that occurs in the Torah (Genesis 13:18, 14:13, 24 and 18:1), and signifies "rebellious". In the Kabbalah, they are the two sons of Balaam, the latter being designated "the wisest of the wise" and the greatest of Magi. He was called Balaam because his birth was the result of a special request to the god Bel to whose service he was dedicated and in whose service he acquired skill in the magic arts. His sons, Yochane and Mamre, were dedicated in the same way but to the Egyptian god Serapis, of whom they became priests and holy scribes. The collection of Kabbalistic literature entitled Yalkut Reuveni (which exists only in Hebrew) tells us (quoting a midrash) the source of Balaam's magic powder. He derived it from the letters Yud and Mem (Yalkut Reuveni Balak 4b). You ought to be well enough versed in Western occultism to make the connections between these two letters in the Kabbalah. The Kabbalistic Rabbis also furnish us with the source of the magic power of Yochane and Mamre. At the urging of Yochane and Mamre, the Israelites forced Aaron to make the golden calf for them (Exodus 32). The calf which Aaron made at Sinai was part ox and part ass, the ox symbolising the magic power of Yochane and the ass symbolising that of Mamre. The ox represents Sammael and the ass represents Rahab (Yalkut Reuveni Ki Tissa 80a on Exodus 32:4, 81a on Exodus 32:11 and 82b on Exodus 32:5; Zohar Ki Tissa 192b; Tikkune ha-Zohar 5 [142a]). Rahab, incidentally, has nothing to do with the prostitute of the same name in the Bible. In all pre-Kabbalistic and Kabbalistic Hebrew literature, Rahab is exclusively a male demon, one of the fathers of demons, the "Sar Shel Yam" or Prince of the Sea. "Yam", by the way, is spelled with a Yud and a Mem, showing that the sources of magic power for Mamre were the same as that of his father Balaam. In the Testament of Solomon, which should be accessible to you in English (vide. F. C. Conybeare), the demon of the Red Sea, Abezitibod ("Father Devoid Of Counsel"), reveals himself as the source of the magical power of Yochane and Mamre (Testament of Solomon 25:3-4; cf. 6:3, 5-6 in the McCown edition *). In the Book of Jubilees (known as "The Little Genesis"), it is the demon Mastema ("Hatred") (cf. Charles, Pseudepigrapha for an English translation).
There is more, much more, but I have not the time to translate it all for you from original sources. I know nothing of a demon who lives under the Nile river and is associated with Ashtaroth, but if you can send me the link or the source I will see if I can find anything about it in the Hebrew Kabbalistic literature.
I am not a Thelemite, by the way, but a sympathetic Jewish Kabbalist who would like to ensure that all those who are devoted to the Kabbalah explore it safely and accurately.
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CORRIGENDA: I mistakenly typed "Balaam's magic powder" for "Balaam's magic power". It's power, not powder, lest anyone get the wrong impression. Also, the website censored me, obviously mistaking Rahab's representation for a profane word. I would ask that the moderators please correct this. We should be able to discuss this animal without anyone taking it for profanity. A donkey, a mule, are the closest I can come to describing the representation of Rahab without getting censored again!
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Thanks for that Kind sir. I would like to do kabbalistic/qlipothic research myself. And the Jannes and Jambres thing always impressed me. Growing up, I was told the Torah was magick and was very demonic and Un-Christian, and It is not the power of Jehovah/YHVH. or Yeheshuah. well, In fact.. it is.. I have many things to say, but thats for another topic.
Im glad i started this topic and thread.. I always read how King David conquered his enemies, with CONSTANT prayer and a much deep friendship and great relationship with YHVH, I thought that, that was all it took to get close to the Jewish God. But now we know theres another side to the coin. This is how Yeheshuah said he had conquered the world in the greek scriptures... And this is why Aleister Crowley said the Jews have half of the Law to make it whole.
By the way. Remember, Always support Israel, you'll never go wrong, and never support antisemitism.
Your magick in kabbalah will be stronger if you read the above sentence, If anyone thinks im bullshitting.. Try it for yourself..
However, my question is, what is the magick of mamre and how can it be obtained?
King Solomon