Conzeit
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Hello all!
I've been interested in Kabbalah and Magick ever since I read Alan Moore's ¨Promethea¨in which he gives a cursory look at the Tree of Life in comic book form,( fitting he says since this is how Egyptians told the stories of their gods ) and I had been wary yet curious of Mr. Crowley for a while now.
I finally got the guts to go and read some of his stuff, and I've got to say some of it I have found very comforting and useful, such as his introduction to the sepher in The Book of Toth as a count from 1 to 10 in creation, since I tend to be quite uneasy with the concept of Duality, and Alesteir's conception of it as a line, as the first dimension was quite refreshing.
On the other hand, I've found some other aspects such as the third chapter of the Liber Al Legis quite unsettling, but knowing his mottos are "do as you will is the whole of the law" and "every man and every woman is a star" I know there must be more to what is unsettling to me, therefore I come here to find some guidance.
if you must know, the nick name was originally chosen because I felt I was in a struggle between arrogance and pure ideas at the time, since this is the evolution of the word in our language, I thought the name was fitting at the time. With time, I've come to think it's too disempowering a name, but I figured since it was only a nickname it correctly reflected how online we only get to meet what people project of themselves, despite whatever intentions of honesty might be behind the communication.
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Thank you, Dar
You comfort me on a level, but I also find it puzzling, does the average Thelemite come to a point where the chapter of Ra Hook Kuit can really can be seen as something awe inspiring? I just cant imagine at this point how it could be so, since it seem to straight out blaspheme on all other prophets and require that you slice the girth of women, and build forts to fight your enemies, and practically to exterminate them. Not to mention the comment afterwards which basically says damn you if you try to comment on this =/...should I just say "oh that wicked Alesteir
" or something? =/Because, right now I feel like Thelema is already very obscure in that it demands so much learning of simbology to understand it properly, but to outright make the product of the marriage of Nuit and Hadit so discouraging is just baffling to me =/.
Is there some required reading I should go trough? did I miss something? I read a little of The Book of Toth, and of Magick Without tears before starting Liber Al Legis, if only because in Moore's Promethea comic these are the 3 Thelemic books that the main character has read before submerging in the Tree of Life. I didnt finish The Book of toth or Magick Without tears before reading Liber Al Legis because I didnt expect the third chapter to be so apalling =/ should I have read them completely? is there something else that I should've read before it? <!-- l --><a class="postlink-local" href="http://www.heruraha.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6709">viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6709</a><!-- l --> this topic talks about a commentary by Crowley which is referenced in the link www.aumha.org/arcane/ccxx.htm, I didnt read the link because I'd rather read Crowley's commentary.
EDIT: I felt this was looking overly pessimistic
I HAVE very much enjoyed the discussions here, such as that of Montessori and of Scientology, the ambient of discussion in general seems to be that of reaching an enlightment rather than the usual seeking of one side's thinking overriding the other, which is incredibly refreshing and I hadnt seen in a long long time. Also, I happened to go to the link where Crowley's comment was refferenced, and I read the commentaries on the first few phrases which referenced war, and it seems like what was said there will be enough for me to be able to understand the rest. Still, if someone can tell me all the instances where Crowley comented on the Liber L I would be greatful 
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@Conzei said
"...should I just say "oh that wicked Alesteir
" or something?"Works for me.
Just take what appeals to you, and reject what doesn't. If you are curious about anything else that you are unsure of, allow yourself the luxury of growing into that over time, or not.
With any luck someone else will suggest a book or two you can read.
Love and Will
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- (This is short for "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" by the way.)
@Conzei said
"You comfort me on a level, but I also find it puzzling, does the average Thelemite come to a point where the chapter of Ra Hook Kuit can really can be seen as something awe inspiring?"
First of all, welcome to the forum! I'm not sure there's such a thing as an "average" Thelemite though - we're quite a varied bunch
As far as Chapter 3 goes... personally, after a time (and a lot of growth), I've begun to see Chapter 3 as being love expressed through symbolism. Logical analysis is not the only way to read The Book of the Law - perhaps try letting it speak to your heart without judging what is being said. Just an idea.
I have a few suggestions, both for reading and just in general:
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Have you read Crowley's commentary to The Book of the Law? He explains a lot of stuff that seems extremely obscure and opaque at first. You can find that online easily (and it's also sold in book form as The Law is For All, although for some reason my copy doesn't have all of the commentary that I've seen online). He's still difficult to read, but it's a lot easier than taking on The Book of the Law completely cold.
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The Book of the Law is not the only so-called Holy Book, or "Class A" text, even though it is the "core" Holy Book for Thelema. (Class A texts are publications that Crowley physically wrote but that are not his own words - they were "channeled" more or less.) Liber LXV, also titled Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente, is another Holy Book. So is Liber Liberi vel Lapidis Lazuli. (Anything that says "Publication in Class A" is among these.)
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Try picking any sub-forum on this forum (Magick, Mysticism, etc) and just read through every thread that sounds interesting. You'll be so full of information after awhile that your head will explode. (Just be aware that not everything stated is accurate - there's the whole spectrum from "absolutely brilliant" posts to "incredibly wrong" posts, although there's not a lot of those last ones.)
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Jim Eshelman (who is the webmaster of this Temple of Thelema forum as well as the Prolocutor of said Order) has his own insights on the Book of the Law available online. I can link you if you want. I have personally found them extremely helpful. (Be sure to read the introduction as well, where he explains his purposes in posting his own personal insights and thoughts online.)
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Just a suggestion... this may be really confusing at first (it's still pretty confusing to me), but it's good to remember that Thelema is not synonymous with Crowley, although he was the channel for its birth and is probably the strongest authority on it. Thelema has independent existence.
And now just a short list of Thelemic texts that may be helpful in getting your grip on what's going on
(These are all by Crowley)De Lege Libellum (one of my personal favorites)
The Law of Liberty
Liber Librae
Liber Porta Lucis
Liber Aleph
Liber Tzaddi
Liber Cordis Cincti Serpente (which is Class A)
Liber Liberi (which is Class A)
Book 4, aka Liber ABA (this is a HUGE book known as the "Big Blue Brick" that is Crowley's Magnum Opus on Thelemic Magick in general, Thelemic Mysticism, and the reception of the Book of the Law.)I'd also read as much of Magick Without Tears as you can stand.
Here's a link to a site with so many Thelemic texts available for free it will make your head spin. A lot of these are instructional and not philosophical, such as Liber O and Liber E. (All of the ones listed above should be available here except Book 4.)
www.sacred-texts.com/oto/index.htm
I apologize for so long of a response but I really get a kick out of posting this type of stuff for people new to Thelema
93, 93/93. (This is short for "Love is the law, love under will.")
EDIT - I can't believe I forgot this! Anything by Israel Regardie is also really good, although he's not writing specifically for Thelemites in most cases. His books The Tree of Life and A Garden of Pomegranates are especially helpful.
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93,93/93! Hahahaha....I loved that. I guess will really IS love, huh?
Thank you SO MUCH, Ash...I do not mind that your post is long, at all. I think I'll be bookmarking it and coming back to it for a long time
1, 4. Nope, I havent read Crowley's comment(unless it's the one preceding Liber L in hermetic.com)...I have read a bit of Jim's Comment though, and I found his comment on the war aspect pretty comforting.
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Thanks, that'll help a lot when deciding when Alesteir's just being his wicked self, and when it's something I should listen to intently
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I have! and actually, it makes me pretty damn thankfull to be here. The posts here are usually very well reasoned and there's a general sense of seeking better enlightment rather than one's reason trumping another (I guess stars know not to collide in here
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Right, I've read a lot of mentions of some "Grant" person...I guess I'll have to look him up as well. I'm also wondering how relevant Hermeticism actually is, do all indoctrinated Thelemites know Hermetic texts? ( indoctrinated is perhaps not the best word, initiated? I know there are several ranks and that you're supposed to go to a phisical place and practice in groups.
Thank you for the link to your site and the mention of Israel too...I'll be checking all that.
93,93/93! it bears repeating
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@Conzei said
"5. Right, I've read a lot of mentions of some "Grant" person...I guess I'll have to look him up as well."
I've never read Kenneth Grant, but from what I can tell from discussion based on him and his work, his approach to Thelema is rather distinct and is not the same "flavor" that Crowley taught. That doesn't necessarily imply anything, but I'm noting that he isn't usually grouped in the same list of "here is a bunch of people initiated in Thelema - read everything they every wrote." In particular, he began the Typhonian Order, which was initially called the Typhonian O.T.O. He claimed that he discovered a "Sirius/Set current" and based his O.T.O lodge around it, which displeased Crowley so much that he kicked Grant out of the O.T.O.
But by all means, read everything that interests you and form your own judgements.
@Conzei said
"I'm also wondering how relevant Hermeticism actually is, do all indoctrinated Thelemites know Hermetic texts? ( indoctrinated is perhaps not the best word, initiated? I know there are several ranks and that you're supposed to go to a phisical place and practice in groups."
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "do all indoctrinated Thelemites know Hermetic texts?".
Initiation is its own story, and there are various orders linked in various ways (or not linked at all) to Crowley. They all operate in different ways, though obviously having some elements in common. They vary from being as legitimate as it gets to being blatantly fraudulent. The Temple of Thelema is associated with the Estai lineage of the Order A.'.A.'.
Thelema doesn't have to be practiced, or studied, or enjoyed, in alignment with any particular group. It is, however, best understood by applying its principles, as you understand them, to your life.
But yes, many Orders do require study of the Hermetic Arts as part of their curriculum, have grades or degrees that measure spiritual growth, and meet in physical places to do various things. Some (many) are group-based, and some (mainly the A.'.A.'.) are solitary systems. (Not that you're totally on your own, but you work on your own and have someone of a higher degree or grade to mentor you and test you.) You seem to have the basic idea of it down though
93, 93/93.