The Great Work - How do you define and live it?
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There is no such thing as a current or a spiritual plane or a "Pure energy" or any of this bullshit.
There are Physical actions of matter, that is all. There is gravity, Electro-magnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces. These are all the "forces" that exist. Energy is an expression of the potential motion stored in a system of matter, due to the forces, and forces are merely a the properties of material particles in how they act upon other particles.
There is not the slightest evidence for the existence to such nonsense, outside of paranormal investigation experiments that have always been shown inconclusive often outright fraud and full of methodological errors. The Rhine institute has not found a single true and conclusive case of "ESP".
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Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
@Froclown said
"There is no such thing as a current or a spiritual plane or a "Pure energy" or any of this bullshit.
There are Physical actions of matter, that is all. There is gravity, Electro-magnetism, strong and weak nuclear forces. These are all the "forces" that exist. Energy is an expression of the potential motion stored in a system of matter, due to the forces, and forces are merely a the properties of material particles in how they act upon other particles.
There is not the slightest evidence for the existence to such nonsense, outside of paranormal investigation experiments that have always been shown inconclusive often outright fraud and full of methodological errors. The Rhine institute has not found a single true and conclusive case of "ESP"."
Thats what they told Copernicus when he first tried to explain that the Earth revolved around the Sun
Reading what you post makes me confused as to why you are even on this site.
Love is the law, love under will.
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Here is an example.
Because all my life I have seen the buildings around me lean and sway in the wind and I fear they will collapse, as I see bridges and roads in disrepair. What I want is to ensure the safety of the people and bring solid construction and beauty to the world. Of coarse I am only a child and I have no means knowledge or power to do anything as yet.
So I seek to educate myself, I read lots of books, learn math and science, practice building model bridges. I develop a great understanding of engineering and design. It is my Will to be a great architect. i visualise myself as the such every day, and every day my self images grows stronger, I totally kill my non-architect personality. I only speak in construction terms and jargon, and I wear a hard hat and orange vest, but only at home when no one is looking. Me and a few friends get together and we play bridge and we talk about different bridge designs, we all wear hard hats and vests. We "FEEL" that all our secret club meetings will change the world, we "FEEL" that our models and or discussions and our intense visualisations of restored and beautiful bridges will send out vibrations that will fortify and change the city. Surely, all our activity (Shh don't tell anyone, they will think it's silly or persecute us for our beliefs and silly hats) will send out waves and currents that will make the cities bridges safe, we are truly saving lives.
See what nonsense that is.
If you want to do the great work you have to go out and actually do it, you have to work hard, you have to move bricks and steel, and deal with city ordinances, acquire funding, face defeats and set backs, you have to bleed for it, applying the right force to the right objects in the right way, etc.
And the right force is not a make up universal mind energy that transforms reality to match your desires, the abject is not your third eye, and the right application of the forces is not performing dramatic ritual that pantomime the archetypical actions of real workers.
Though all that can help you train your mind and get you focused and teach you some of the skills necessary when you do the real job, none of it is actually doing the work.
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"POSTULATE.
ANY required change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner, through the proper medium to the proper object.
(Illustration: I wish to prepare an ounce of Chloride of Gold. I must take the right kind of acid, nitro-hydrochloric and no other, in a vessel which will not break, leak or corrode, in such a manner as will not produce undesirable results, with the necessary quantity of Gold: and so forth. Every change has its own conditions.
In the present state of our knowledge and power some changes are not possible in practice; we cannot cause eclipses, for instance, or transform lead into tin, or create men from mushrooms. But it is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of which that object is capable by nature; and the conditions are covered by the above postulate.)"
See, "any change of which that object is capable by nature" that is you have to apply natural ie physical and material causes to achieve the changes you want. Magick is the science that studies the laws of nature and the natural forces and the art of applying those natural laws to achieve a desired effect. That is to say Magick is Science.
More to the point it is science applied to life, not left in some sterile laboratory cut off from the day to day life. Magick is science applied to philosophy to belief and to ethics, that is normative science, applied sceptical methodology to normative concerns and structuring you life style and actions so as to achieve your goal. It is the science of learning about your natural function, via study of your biology, race, culture, social status, your limits and skills, and choosing which experiences to engage and which to remove in order to make yourself in the image of your ambition.
Magick is the science of changing your environment in order to shape yourself, and to change the wider world by expanding your influence and make your ideal into a reality, via practical action knowing and actually applying the right natural forces to the right object, in the right degree and manner to achieve the changes that you Will to occur.
Rituals and such have as their purpose to develop your skills of focus and help you build complex associations in your mind that widen your semantic network and scope of understanding, daily practices that develop discipline or create awareness of the cycles of nature, develop ability to control your behaviour and change your personality in order to dissociate from conditioned biases.
The same as boot-camp is training to make a good soldier, it trains muscles and teaches the mindset of the soldier and the skills you need etc. That is part of using magick is applying forces to yourself, in order to make yourself more effective at directing and applying natural force. For example lifting weights makes you more effective at moving large rocks, or learning math makes you more effective at engineering. But scratching away at numbers does not in and of itself send men to the moon, or design new computers. -
it does seem as though you are defining it, to a degree... but there are holes in your theory, or lack of certain types of application with regard to the great work. i assume you know that though. there is no easy access. it's not a belief system. have you tried the silent approach?
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@Froclown said
""POSTULATE.
ANY required change may be effected by the application of the proper kind and degree of Force in the proper manner, through the proper medium to the proper object.
(Illustration: I wish to prepare an ounce of Chloride of Gold. I must take the right kind of acid, nitro-hydrochloric and no other, in a vessel which will not break, leak or corrode, in such a manner as will not produce undesirable results, with the necessary quantity of Gold: and so forth. Every change has its own conditions.
In the present state of our knowledge and power some changes are not possible in practice; we cannot cause eclipses, for instance, or transform lead into tin, or create men from mushrooms. But it is theoretically possible to cause in any object any change of which that object is capable by nature; and the conditions are covered by the above postulate.)"
See, "any change of which that object is capable by nature" that is you have to apply natural ie physical and material causes to achieve the changes you want. Magick is the science that studies the laws of nature and the natural forces and the art of applying those natural laws to achieve a desired effect. That is to say Magick is Science.
More to the point it is science applied to life, not left in some sterile laboratory cut off from the day to day life. Magick is science applied to philosophy to belief and to ethics, that is normative science, applied sceptical methodology to normative concerns and structuring you life style and actions so as to achieve your goal. It is the science of learning about your natural function, via study of your biology, race, culture, social status, your limits and skills, and choosing which experiences to engage and which to remove in order to make yourself in the image of your ambition.
Magick is the science of changing your environment in order to shape yourself, and to change the wider world by expanding your influence and make your ideal into a reality, via practical action knowing and actually applying the right natural forces to the right object, in the right degree and manner to achieve the changes that you Will to occur.
Rituals and such have as their purpose to develop your skills of focus and help you build complex associations in your mind that widen your semantic network and scope of understanding, daily practices that develop discipline or create awareness of the cycles of nature, develop ability to control your behaviour and change your personality in order to dissociate from conditioned biases.
The same as boot-camp is training to make a good soldier, it trains muscles and teaches the mindset of the soldier and the skills you need etc. That is part of using magick is applying forces to yourself, in order to make yourself more effective at directing and applying natural force. For example lifting weights makes you more effective at moving large rocks, or learning math makes you more effective at engineering. But scratching away at numbers does not in and of itself send men to the moon, or design new computers."Either you are missing something vital or you are assuming that we are all idiots.
If you have ever actually practised meditation or magick, then I can only assume that you have completely missed the point of it, or mistook it for some sort of Harry potteresque pantomime.
either way it seems that you are massively left brain heavy, and apparently getting worse, do you perhaps have aspergers syndrome or something like it? (That's not a dig at aspergers, its just that I know a couple of people who do have it and they see things in the same very black and white way, although not usually quite so virulent as in your case).
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I have and do rituals and meditation every day.
I do Resh, LBRP and Hex daily.
I used to do Vel Reguli regularly
Also Yoga.
I have worked "enchantments" with chaos magick sigils, (and I get results) Though these results are very unfalsifiable and their nature is more of causing a cognitive dissonance as per RAW and his 23 enigma. It creates a sort of paranoia where one viscerally does not want to deny the results. However the feeling of the gambler that he is on a lucky streak, or that after losing many times the odds are in his favour now, is strong. It is only by careful study of the true odds, taking is feelings and hunches out that he can learn the truth. The paranoid will see assassination attempts everywhere and the magician will see proof of his powers, the same way the Christian can not deny that Jesus is looking out for him (or usually her).I ask you, have you subjected your rituals to strict double blind scientific and falsifiable tests? if so can I get a copy of your methodology, procedure, data, and statistical results, that I might attempt to duplicate your results?
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@Froclown said
"I have and do rituals and meditation every day.
I do Resh, LBRP and Hex daily.
I used to do Vel Reguli regularly
Also Yoga.
I have worked "enchantments" with chaos magick sigils, (and I get results) Though these results are very unfalsifiable and their nature is more of causing a cognitive dissonance as per RAW and his 23 enigma. It creates a sort of paranoia where one viscerally does not want to deny the results. However the feeling of the gambler that he is on a lucky streak, or that after losing many times the odds are in his favour now, is strong. It is only by careful study of the true odds, taking is feelings and hunches out that he can learn the truth. The paranoid will see assassination attempts everywhere and the magician will see proof of his powers, the same way the Christian can not deny that Jesus is looking out for him (or usually her)."If this is true then you are a mass of contradictions, a whole lot of over thinking and something else that I can't put my finger on, except that you appear to be not quite firing on all cylinders.
"I ask you, have you subjected your rituals to strict double blind scientific and falsifiable tests? if so can I get a copy of your methodology, procedure, data, and statistical results, that I might attempt to duplicate your results?"
Actually, being scientifically trained I know how to test my results (or lack of in some cases
) Lets get our cocks out and measure them while we're at it shall we? -
How is it a contradiction a ritual like LBRP is sufficient to do what it is meant to do, manipulate the nervous system.
The same way that daily reciting of a pledge or singing a national anthem inspires patriotic feelings and thoughts, Singing the anthem does not produce as mystical link in the mind-field or any such non-sense. Reciting a pledge or attending a religious ceremony can re-enforce thoughts and feelings of community and brotherhood that reduce friction and arguments between workers, not because it connects everyone with an invisible "love field" but because it gets everyone thinking about imagery of the common goals and the physical activities that make us mutually reliant and ask each of us to bury our grudges and forgive each other.
LBRP is just like a poem or song that effects the mind and directs the thoughts, emotions and thus the behaviour in a predictable way. Not via energies of any kind, but via imagery, as words, thoughts and mental images are linked to each other in the brain and to emotions, body sates, and behaviour. We can set images and connections in the brain and cause those to play out by going through the motions that trigger the programs.
Hypnotism can make some one start barking like a dog when they hear a bell, there is no energy in the bell that does the trick, nor is hypnosis a form of magnetic force as claim the mesmerists, it is using tones of voice and myopic images to induce a state where images produce the associated behaviours without passing through the inhibition process in the brain.
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@fool said
"Are you kidding around? Seriously? I'll just assume you're pulling a straight face jest. Not much room for fundamentalist materialism on a board that revolves around magick, you know, Einsteins "spooky" action-at-a-distance."
And, this, I think, is the main point: Froclown is here preaching his own fundamentalist religion.
If a fundamentalist Christian came on this forum, they would be welcome. If they started preaching Christianity on every thread they touched, it would seem out of place to the community, and off-topic to the forum. That doesn't actually mean there's anything bad about it, except in the way that "dirt" is defined as "matter in the wrong place."
FroClown is here preaching a different religion: fundamentalist materialism. Materialism is every bit as much a religion as, say, Christianity. (Materialism, formally defined, is the belief that only matter exists or, in any case, that matter is the controlling agent. Informally, there are variants on this.)
His preaching of this alternate religion is as out of place to this community, and as off-topic to this forum, as the theoretical fundamentalist Christian mentioned above. He is "dirt" in the specific sense of "matter in the wrong place."
This doesn't mean he has nothing to contribute. For one thing, I'm always happy to see someone mention that the Great Work involves work - actual work. Even though we sometimes differ on what that looks like in practice, we to share that common value in much the same way that Jews and Mormons both value Adam.
PS - I also want to thank all of those who have answered 'Clown's posts, saving me form the need to do so. One can only mention Liber II to him so many times before everybody is bored by it. (He also seems never to have differentiated Thelema from [his unique reading of[ the O.T.O.)
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@Dar said
"... and I suppose members of the A.'.A.'. can shoot lightning bolts out of their arses too?
"That's trivial. We did that in high school. Looked more like jets of fire, but it did light up a dark basement.
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If the only thing that exists is material reality, how can there be emotional or mental states of mind that are "nonsense", or exist independently from material reality?
Why bother to argue against such "nonsense" or those states, unless you believe they are real, powerful things that exist from a source other than material reality?
I do, on the other hand, feel that 'real' work is where it's at. I don't even care if a person's work is 'perfect' in any way that I might define it. The fact that a person is DOING their will matters vastly more to me than how well they are doing it, and vastly more than how well they might be talking about doing it.
Froclown, have you read Wittgenstein's "Philosophical Investigations"? If you haven't yet, I think you would enjoy it.
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The Esoteric tradition can only exist within the Exoteric school of religion.
Religion is a set of practices than express the esoteric core idea which, unites people as a community and a common tradition to their culture climate, Blood and soil. Links people to the cycles of nature and their productive culmination of labour on the land.
The esoteric links to the origin of all religions.
Kabbalah in the esoteric core of Judaism. For example. The only way to be initiated into the esoteric is via an exoteric system.
OTO was the exoteric vessel than Crowley chose to express Thelema, and A.'.A.'. the esoteric system of initiation.
Sure there are other orders that also exist than can link to the same core of Thelema. But as Crowley designed it during his life OTO was meant to be the major order that replaces all the old aeon orders than continue to link to the Esoteric inner tradition my a formula other than that of Thelema.
Crowly would also agree we are living in the "Kali Yuga" and would say that liberal modernism will destroy the world by fire, and only those life boats of Tradition than cling to the Thelemic system will survive, e.g. The OTO.
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a mental state is a brain state.
and emotional state is a release of hormones and neurotransmitters that change the physical behaviour of the brain and how it controls the body in reaction to input stimulations.
there is nothing non-physical about it.
I really don't see what it has to do with anything. what I am saying in.
If you want a hole dug in the back yard you can.
Sit in a circle and pray and chant and visualize for months and fears, your whole life, till you die.
The hole will not dig itself from some vibrations or forces you dream up.instead you have to physically touch a shovel, and not in a ritual, you have to take the shovel, apply sufficent force in the right way to the shovel, pushing it into the ground, to actually physically dig the whole.
If you are feeling too lazy and you want to do a visualization exercise, imagining the finished pool, and what it feels like to swim in it, then this might give you motivation to get up and dig the hole. But it sure as hell will not dig itself just because you wished real hard, no matter what imaginary spirits you called up, or what symbols you draw in the air, or how loud you vibrate the names of angels.
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@Froclown said
"The Esoteric tradition can only exist within the Exoteric school of religion."
Prove this without presupposing materialism.
"Religion is a set of practices than express the esoteric core idea which, unites people as a community and a common tradition to their culture climate, Blood and soil. Links people to the cycles of nature and their productive culmination of labour on the land."
This is only true of those religions which fit that definition.
"OTO was the exoteric vessel than Crowley chose to express Thelema, and A.'.A.'. the esoteric system of initiation."
O.T.O. is one particular club among many. It has the important distinction of also controlling the Aleister Crowley literary estate.
"Sure there are other orders that also exist than can link to the same core of Thelema. But as Crowley designed it during his life OTO was meant to be the major order that replaces all the old aeon orders than continue to link to the Esoteric inner tradition my a formula other than that of Thelema."
This forum has no relationship to O.T.O. whatsoever (except that some people on this forum are also members of O.T.O.). Generally, we feel that O.T.O. matters mostly should be discussed in O.T.O. contexts. (Occassionally some reference serves a discussion occurring here.)
"Crowly would also agree we are living in the "Kali Yuga" and would say that liberal modernism will destroy the world by fire, and only those life boats of Tradition than cling to the Thelemic system will survive, e.g. The OTO."
Sigh. (Lots of suppositions in that sentence, not worth pointing out.)
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Very similar, yes
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@Dar said
"Dar wrote:
... and I suppose members of the A.'.A.'. can shoot lightning bolts out of their arses too? "As Crowley proved, being a member of the A.'.A.'. is not only about what comes OUT of one's arse. "Invocation" is just as important as "banishing" -- and sometimes more fun!!!