Crowley- Violator of others' Wills?
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@Froclown said
"The claims made are that economic powers displace the values and virtues of the Traditional ruling class. The arguments made are that the current capitalist economic system does not allow or support the ruling class system. "
Who claims that? Bullshit! The economy is there to be manipulated for what it is worth, and without controls is one of the greatest sources of exploitation by unscrupulous persons imaginable. You can only claim these unscrupulous persons are superior, or else they are scum (my position). The traditional ruling class buys expert opinion and guidance with their wealth, producing more wealth, etc...
@Froclown said
"It seems to me that what you have done is made my argument for me. I am not for the capitalist system at all, nor for placing the highest or worse ONLY values on material wealth distribution. One can be rich and still be a slob, subject to avarice and pettiness and one can be a poor peasant and possess the highest moral virtues. I believe there is a verse in the book an that issue as well. "
Who are you calling 'you' white boy? I say, eat the rich! And as far as your utopian pipe-dream is concerned, if the wealthy have the army in their pockets, which is the norm, you will have no opportunity to make the case for poor peasants possessed of the highest moral virtues! So screw that!
@Froclown said
"What I am saying is we need to kill the notion of entitlements all together, you are only entitled to what you earn with your own hands, no one has "Natural or God gives rights". Rather your right to do anything whatsoever is based on your might to uphold that right. "Man has a right to kill..." addresses the issue that it is your ability to defend even unto death your actions that grants you the right to them. "
More Libertarian bull-crap! It seems you haven't been paying attention, not even to recent history—say, the last fifteen years? Dude, you have to be able to enforce this: "you are only entitled to what you earn with your own hands." And who or what is going to do that? Jeeeez, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.
@Froclown said
"There is NO moral authority at all, there is no God but Man. That means there is no government, no state, no nation, no moral majority, no principle or law, than entitles anyone to anything at all. The only God is Man himself, his own interests and WILL guides him and it is only by "The force and vigour of his arms" that he succeeds of fails."
I don't care that 'technically' there is no moral authority. I just want to be on hand when you explain this to those governments and militias that use rape as a weapon of war! Your statement is supposed to imply, what? That's it's your own fault if you get gang raped in the arse? Fortunately, life is a lot more complicated than you want to make it out to be. Shouting platitudes will not change anything.
As always,
Love and Will
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@Froclown said
"I was speaking that in general the right to do anything, what I mean is the ability to do your ONE WILL, is not grated to you by an entitlement you have to actively use might and force to achieve it for yourself, no one gives you your WILL, YOU have to take it."
If you mean like Ghandi took it, then I agree with you, otherwise you are farting out of a place higher than your butt hole.
Love and will
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I apologize for my last post, it was rude.
Love and Will
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@Froclown said
"I was speaking that in general the right to do anything, what I mean is the ability to do your ONE WILL, is not grated to you by an entitlement you have to actively use might and force to achieve it for yourself, no one gives you your WILL, YOU have to take it."
I was with you until the last phrase. What's all this need to fight? Certainly sometime - in some contexts, with some people - that's necessary, but (also certainly) not as a generalization. You preach such a conflictual world, and that conflict is entirely unnecessary in most cases. You don't have to take anything.
BTW, while I would agree that the right (and necessity!) to do your will is innate, I'd also agree that unless society also identified this as a general entitlement, then there would be a need for conflict most of the time. That's a silly waste of energy.
"You are given the tools and the drive by nature as an element of who you are, but to make your ideal into a reality, You have to rely only on yourself and your own power."
You say this as if you exist separate from the rest of humanity. You don't. Your actions as an individual and the context and assistance of society as a whole are required for this achievement. (Even at the sociological level, this is becoming much more evident. Singular individual achievement rarely exists except in a context that enables and supports it.)
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it soldiers are raping it is because they fail to adhere to a code of honour, like bushido or Chivalry, which is the hallmark of a traditional warrior caste. The reason they fail to uphold these values and honour, is that they no longer believe in the either the spiritual sanction of such values and-or they have lost all sense of tradition and belonging to the community whole reputation stands on the behaviour of it's member, especially the way it's soldiers behave in other lands.
Generally this is because the faith in the ruling class due to their corruption has shifted people to be suspicious of all authority, including the abstract authority of values and virtue, "the Gods are a lie and the priests are puppet masters than exploit lies to abuse us" thus all spiritual values lose their foundation. Then with commerce and migration of cultures people exchange values and traditions and thus people seeing other cultures as equally valid, lose faith in their own culture. As technology and economics advance and people rely more on gadgets and less on community, the sense of community wanes. The only values left are those of wealth. Thus even soldiers do not see themselves in patriotic terms or as representatives of God's will or the reputation of their proud culture and tradition, instead they see themselves as proletariat workers fighting for a pay check.
With the foundation of all values swept away' an Nietzsche said "God is dead" we need are left with no sense of purpose, no sense of higher community or spiritual connection on which to found virtue.
To rectify this situation is the primary purpose of the Law of Thelema, it restore spiritual values without having to rely on superstitions about men rising from the dead, or gods in other worlds that punish us, or the power of priests, or any other worlds. Thelema is grounded in sceptical method of science not in faith, and it's mandate is to grow and experiences for oneself, to learn from those experiences, to cultivate and develop your own virtues, so that you can perform that one task which you discover as your own and not be envious or resentful of others. Though willing to respect others who achieve their goals and to learn from them, to follow in their foot steps if need be. It develop in yourself pride and confidence in your abilities and your virtues, so that you would not debase yourself with vice, as per example being greedy or petty, or exploiting your role as soldier to rape and murder.
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Jim.
What is the IXth article in the "Oath of the Abyss"
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@Froclown said
"What is the IXth article in the "Oath of the Abyss""
(I think you mean the Oath of 8=3, not the Oath of the Abyss, which is different. Answering from that assumption:)
"That I will rely only upon myself."
Anticipating your argument: People who have attended my lectures on and off for the last 20-30 years have heard me mention many times that one of the chief things that changes, as one moves on through the Work, is one's understanding of what "self" means.
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@Froclown said
"Generally this is because the faith in the ruling class due to their corruption has shifted people to be suspicious of all authority"
Yes, be suspicious of authority! Good point!
@Froclown said
" Then with commerce and migration of cultures people exchange values and traditions and thus people seeing other cultures as equally valid, lose faith in their own culture. "
And what I want for Crowleymas this year is to see a lot of multi-colored babies!
@Froclown said
"With the foundation of all values swept away' an Nietzsche said "God is dead" we need are left with no sense of purpose, no sense of higher community or spiritual connection on which to found virtue."
And yet, what a very useful word/idea 'god' is. I use it all the time, and I don't really believe, or do I?
@Froclown said
"To rectify this situation is the primary purpose of the Law of Thelema, it restore spiritual values without having to rely on superstitions about men rising from the dead, or gods in other worlds that punish us, or the power of priests, or any other worlds. Thelema is grounded in sceptical method of science not in faith, and it's mandate is to grow and experiences for oneself, to learn from those experiences, to cultivate and develop your own virtues, so that you can perform that one task which you discover as your own and not be envious or resentful of others. Though willing to respect others who achieve their goals and to learn from them, to follow in their foot steps if need be. It develop in yourself pride and confidence in your abilities and your virtues, so that you would not debase yourself with vice, as per example being greedy or petty, or exploiting your role as soldier to rape and murder."
God, or the devil is in the details. Your standing on a big rock and giving the lecture about how life could be oh so much better under the Thelemic banner is not going to make people think or act any differently than they do.
Love and Will
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That is why we we have to develop Thelemic communities with schools and stronger institutions like EGC churches that do work in the community and express Thelemic values in action not just in words. Organise Thelemic companies that exist for the purpose of supporting the needs of the workers so they can perform their own Will, rather than the modern economic goal of money for money sake, demanding infinite growth and imposing products on people who don't need them. Thelemic militias than teach honour and virtues and protect the welfare of the Thelemic community and the ability of each individual to perform their natural function, for it's own sake not for the sake of making money. Thelemic institutions to promote art, science, literature, for the sake of promoting cultural values and traditions, not degeneracy and not artists selling out to the liberal modernist system to make money.
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@Froclown said
"That is why we we have to develop Thelemic communities with schools and stronger institutions like EGC churches that do work in the community and express Thelemic values in action not just in words. Organise Thelemic companies that exist for the purpose of supporting the needs of the workers so they can perform their own Will, rather than the modern economic goal of money for money sake, demanding infinite growth and imposing products on people who don't need them. Thelemic militias than teach honour and virtues and protect the welfare of the Thelemic community and the ability of each individual to perform their natural function, for it's own sake not for the sake of making money. Thelemic institutions to promote art, science, literature, for the sake of promoting cultural values and traditions, not degeneracy and not artists selling out to the liberal modernist system to make money."
Be at ease. We don't need to do jack! We just need to do what Joseph Cambell would describe as 'following your bliss.' Now I stick my fingers in my ears.
Love and Will
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right and that is why Joseph Smith has a whole army of Mormons in Utah and all oven the world even one running for president and people who read Joseph Campbell and sit around blissfully shoving their fingers into their ears, have nothing to show for it, and have never been considered for president of anything.
If thelemites sit around following their bliss, and not taking effective actions we will just fade away or remain a small fringe group. The Catholic church did not rise to power by Christians sitting on their thumbs and blissing out. Alexander did not spread his ideals by sitting at home in the dark, he went out and conquered the world and set his ideals into action, by the way he ruled the nations.
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What I want to see.
Everywhere you see a sign or a flag or a banner today, that has a cross on it, I want to see a Hexagram or an OTO Lamen.
I want to see people get up at dawn to do morning Rest instead of Tai-chi in Tienamin square.
I want to see OTO or a similar Thelemic order running all the major businesses, under a new economic model that in human centric not money-centric.
I want to see cities designed to save energy and use everything and every individual efficiently according to their nature and Will.
I want to see organic permaculture farming, with produce stamped with a Thelemic symbol.
I want to see people not acting as strangers who have to live near by, but as a true community of brothers and sisters.
I want to see Child specific education programs run my Thelemic schools that help each child learn discipline and focus, and teach how to develop your own skills.
I want strong thelemic communities, that display openly their affiliation and beliefs, their virtues and superiority over the Christian-liberal communities of the slave Gods. With it's merchants and militias marching confidently under the banner of the Sun, to go forth and do their Will proud and unrestrained by strict laws, self restrained by their honour and respect for the King who is the embodiment of Thelemic tradition and civil community. -
@Froclown said
"What I want to see.
Everywhere you see a sign or a flag or a banner today, that has a cross on it, I want to see a Hexagram or an OTO Lamen. "
As a reminder: This forum has nothing to do with O.T.O. (except that some forum members happen also to be O.T.O. members.) Please do not use this forum to propagandize for a separate, unrelated organization. (First advisory.)
If you want to see a hexagram everyplace you go, you might move to Israel - you could have that now.
"I want to see people get up at dawn to do morning Rest instead of Tai-chi in Tienamin square."
Tai-chi is healthier
(Besides, it's not inherently un-Thelemic. Also besides: One could do both.) -
All Thelemic groups and organisations are part of one movement.
Thus if you are Thelemic, you must support all groups that promote that agenda.
Maybe you don't agree on all points. But advancement of the ideals can not afford such pointless division.
I see no reason for all this concern with things like who owns copywrites to books available for free to anyone on the internet or who is the legit successor of this or that, etc.
The idea is to set up Thelema under whatever banner the more the better, as instutions that put into practice the philosophy and practical advice as written in Crowley's essay "The method of Thelema"
Which is to say to organise all world leaders in academic fields to word out the application of Thelema to social organisation, and to get all leading professionals of economic fields to understand and accept the law and work out how to re-structure their businesses to express the "Law of fitness" in every aspect of the business. Another issue must be the propaganda of the media needs to be used to supposed Thelemic principles and ideals, in films, music and commercials.
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@Froclown said
"All Thelemic groups and organisations are part of one movement."
That, of course, wouldn't be yours to decide - but would fall to the caretakers of the respective "groups and organizations."
You write as if Thelema itself were the end. It's not. It's the means. It's a passing phase that will last a few thousand years at most. We adopt it for far more ancient ends, for one reason: It's the tool that works at the moment.
"Thus if you are Thelemic, you must support all groups that promote that agenda."
I won't even go into the issue of what "agenda" you think "all Thelemic groups and organisations" share. I assure you that they do not all have the same agenda at all.
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That agenda is the great work.
Ie as put forth in the Postcard to probationers, that of cultivating Geniuses or "Christs" ie superior examples of humanity, via teaching practices than tend to cultivate such, societies that allow for and encourage such practices, develop a technology of improving upon such practices and social organisations, eliminate the slave idea that resents superior power, eliminate the fear of and tendency to make a fetish of death, remove the notion of vicarious and intercessory atonement and the notion of original sin, and denounce gossip via teaching of Yama and Niyama, the promote courage, learning by personal experience and removal of taboos on self exploration, and instilling a very strong adherence to and respect for the sceptical methods of science in all things especially subjecting all personal feelings, experiences and revelations to strong controlled scrutiny. for starters.
As you yourself so adeptly pointed out, no individual to complete unto themselves, and thus the cultivation of any individual genius requires that the interaction between community members be mutually supportive, in that effort. Thus the cultivation of particular genius is totally enmeshed with the weaving of a social order which supports mutually the cultivation of each other's function and purpose, thus a social order where all individuals are contributing their own unique WILL in such away that it facilitates the growth and efficiency of the functions of others. That over time there is less and less friction, and each individual Will becomes less restricted. Thus everyone rather than frustrating each other works to compliment each other's functions. In the same way as I explained before, that one sets up a permaculture system so that each plant's natural qualities add to the system and contribute something that another plant uses, and because of the way they are arranged, competition for resources is replaced by co-operation with each-other's natural aims.
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@Froclown said
"That agenda is the great work."
You are simply showing your ignorance of the organizations of which you speak so broadly. The Greak Work in the sense that you describe it (and, for that matter, in any common or shared sense) is not the goal of the diverse range of organizations to which you referred in general.
"Postcards to Probationers" is specifically an A.'.A.'. reference, and it isn't even particularly Thelemic. It stems from the early A.'.A.'. period when Crowley was still actively resisting Liber Legis, and the founders were representing A.'.A.'. purely in terms of Scientific Illuminism.
I agree with many of the goals you mention in this particular post. But that's a digression. The immediate topic dealt with the illusion that any organization representing itself as Thelemic has the same agenda as all the others.
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Yes.
it's A.'.A.'.
But O.T.O is a chartered external school of the A.'.A.'. dedicated to the same great work. also it was A.'.A.'. that gave the book of the law to Crowley and it is presumably the secret chiefs of the A.'.A.'. (The Great white brotherhood) who designate the formula of the Aeon, as a means to purge the activity of the black school's corruption of the last formula which the A.'.A.'. had given to man, that of INRI, IAO, the death rebirth rite.So then every True Thelemic order is working directly or indirectly for the Goals of the A.'.A.'. which is the White school of magick, against the black school of degeneration. and the white school or A.'.A.'. or secret chiefs or clouded sanctuary, or the a million other names. Is the transcendent tradition that Evola and Geunon trace back to Mythical hyperborea via the indo-aryans, that Blavatski locates as the home of the secret chiefs in Tibet, that others have called Thule or Atlantis or Mu, or the norse call it Aesgaard, the Japanese the lineage of the sun goddess. Etc.
The Tradition of solar-phallic principle or white school of magick, which all orders that claim to be Thelemic are directly or indirectly working to establish the ideals of that inner school, via encoding them into exoteric rites, dogmas, practices etc. that can be understood and carried out by those of various levels of initiation, with some external rituals aimed at the mundane to align their practices, while others seek to initiate the understanding to deeper levels, to reveal the inner truth.
As it was stated in the Cloud upon the sanctuary, there are prophets and priests. The priests administer the rites and rituals to the mundane people, the prophets come once in a while when the rights are no longer effective and have become corrupt to purge them and restore the link to the inner tradition, via establishing a new mode or formula of expression, thus all the rights must be re-written. Churches and organisations that can be updated will be, others which are too far corrupt will be destroyed or left to rot away.
Thus Crowley the Prophet, the spokesman for the Great white brotherhood of the inner order, wrote new rituals and decried against the degeneration of the old formula, and delivered the outline of the new formula to achieve the Great work of linking to the inner order and manifesting it's white school principles in the world. The new formula is meant to be such that the black school can not as easily corrupt it, and it helps to unite the white and yellow schools. Thus all outer orders that accept the book of the law are aligned to the same great work as the vehicles of the inner school, the A.'.A.'.
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Weekend is over. Back to work in the morning. No more time to joust with someone who simply doesn't know what he's talking about.
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I have nothing to do with the higher management in O.T.O.
When I refer to O.T.O I am referring to the blue equinox model and the ideal of a thelemic based community or abby as portrayed in Diary and Moonchild. As a social community, of all thelemites that as in a monastary or an intentional community, to teach and live as Thelemits. Who have good repoir with the "trogs" outside their community, and even a reputation of being happier, healthier, possessing more wisdom, being more friendly and helpful, hard working and all around superior individuals due to their teachings and life style, such that people will be drawn to accept the book of the law and the Thelemic life style. Which will slowly replace the whole trog world.
Not necessarily any manifestation of the O.T.O. as it currently stands.
It may also be on order that does not use the initials O.T.O.