The Great Work - How do you define and live it?
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I already said, if you can show me your procedures and methodology, and let me review your data, show that your performed controlled experiments with verifiable results.
I will be more than happy to repeat your experiment myself, I have been trained in such methods, so I know how to get state board authorisation and will gather a good test sample. I may even be able to get funding. I will test it out in the controlled lab, and see if we get any results than statistically deny the null hypothesis.
If I find conclusive proof that there are such non-material things, I will be glad to put your name on my study. Since so far in hundreds of years of science no one has done such a thing, we may even win a nobel prize.
But if all anyone can give me are anecdotal stories about things that don't even relate to anything sensible. "I imagined a blue light covered a whole city of people and later I heard that some of them reported feeling spiritual" I will take that as nonsense, not as proof of anything.
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You're interesting to watch, in a certain light. The extremism is obviously serving as a compensatory mechanism to protect you from a Huge Scary Multiverse filled with all manner of unexplainable phenomena. Good luck overcoming your fears.
Anyway, It is obvious you are a waste of time to
as when dogma enters the brain, all intellectual activity ceases and so i think you've had your say and the respectful thing to do would be to start a separate thread where you can bash our brief statements and let those of us happily carry on who don't want to waste our time arguing.In conlusion, there is no conclusion. Things will go on as they always have, getting weirder all the time.
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I would like to link to some one who it seems took it upon themselves to write in my defence.
And this other really amazing essay, which is written in a much more academic style than my tendency to polemic, but expresses all the same ideas that I try to convey.
helema-and-skepticism.blogspot.com/2011/06/introduction.html
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@Froclown said
"But if all anyone can give me are anecdotal stories about things that don't even relate to anything sensible. "I imagined a blue light covered a whole city of people and later I heard that some of them reported feeling spiritual" I will take that as nonsense, not as proof of anything."
We missed you, thou gadfly of Thelema. This forum was getting somewhat boring as of late.
Might I remind you: "There is a factor infinite and unknown."
I understand what you're saying; no claim to experiential phenomena should be made without being tested, tried, and assimilated to the corpus of existing data. But at the same time, to hold as a premise that a thing cannot exist unless it is verifiable by human experience is a fallacy. "Man is not the measure of all things."
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look my whole point was this.
The great work is not a feeling, it's not a spiritual sense, it's not mystical ascension, it is not doing yoga and feeling at peace with the world.
The great work is "establishing the kingdom of God on earth". If developing your "spiritual sense" is beneficial to you taking practical measure then so be it. But if all you are doing is warping your mind with practices than teach you to accept confirmation biases and delve into solipsism and convince you that you have powers to make the world a better place just by "raising positive energy bubbles" while the mis-management of the economic system causing a crash that will lead to all businesses shutting down, oil consumption and dependence will kill us all when it runs out, The media is driven to propagate poor mental habits and behaviours to brain wash us into needing unnecessary things, society is declining rapidly to self destruction, many factors are leading people to depression and anxiety that are medicated rather than treated at the source, people are driven by taught entitlement mentality that leads to criminal behaviour as well as feelings of inferiority, leaders are not trusted or trust worthy leading to cries against all authority and civil order that breaks down into anarchy and crime, and to preserve the unsustainable global industrial network the whole world in sunk into one war after another.
The cause of all of this can be traced to a lack of belief in higher values and the disrespect of individuals who possess those higher virtues, in place of them avarice, the mere attainment of wealth for wealth sake and the fanatical devotion to spoiled pop stars and poor black rap stars (Both indoctrinated with extreme cases of slave mentality that they are entitled by birth to be equal no matter what, and the resentment of those who have achieved more, leading to a victim mentality in the black community and to apathy and degenerate behaviour in the rich) There are no higher values presented, the rich don't know what to use their money for, and the poor don't have any other sense of value in loo of wealth. The values of the Christian churches support the victim hood and entitlement mentality, the liberal politics encourage this mentality by their left hand so they can come in and play the saviour with the left hand and pander votes from the minority and working class.
These are only a few of the MANY problems that are the result of following out the Old Aeon Formula, which the right application of the Law of Thelema, as it is presented in "The method of Thelema" as the "Law of fitness" would solve or improve greatly.
But the means of applying the law, is not to produce feelings in yourself, or to imagine that you are transmitting love and happiness in an aura to the world. You have to ACTUALLY and Physically change the policies, the logistics of businesses and companies, the mentality of the people, the structure of cities, the goals of the nations and the companies.
That means Promoting Thelema to the people, establishing it in small communities to test it out and improve it's application, to design company logistics that conform to Thelema. To put the values out in the media and to actively work against the messages of Democracy and Equality, and all that promote victimhood, slave morals, entitlement, etc. To promote Aristocracy.
Not to pray over a sigil, and imagine a blue light warming the hearts of the world, then looking at pictures of kittens with a warm feeling of self congratulations of how much "Spiritual work" you have done to serve humanity.
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Funny thing Froclown is that I know no one personally whom fits that description. Everyone I know involved in the Great Work completely agrees with your call to practicality. Not that I don't know fluffy wannabe butterflys out there, but none of them call it The Great Work.
What those of us whom I know know is that in order to change the world (similar as you describe it) we must also (and first) change ourselves. Not exactly in the fluffy white lighter mentality that you demonize in your life, but in the wisdom that without a certain level of empathy and understanding and basic relationship skills, this "fight for what is right" will only make you sound and look like a "gadfly" jackass - someone no one is going to listen too.
So... as has been told you many different ways in many different topics and with as many examples as I can imagine, you need to balance the micro with the macro a little more. Yes, you specifically, need to open yourself more than you've shown yourself to have at this point.
Yours in lucks
- Takamba
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@Takamba said
"Funny thing Froclown is that I know no one personally whom fits that description. Everyone I know involved in the Great Work completely agrees with your call to practicality. Not that I don't know fluffy wannabe butterflys out there, but none of them call it The Great Work.
What those of us whom I know know is that in order to change the world (similar as you describe it) we must also (and first) change ourselves. Not exactly in the fluffy white lighter mentality that you demonize in your life, but in the wisdom that without a certain level of empathy and understanding and basic relationship skills, this "fight for what is right" will only make you sound and look like a "gadfly" jackass - someone no one is going to listen too.
So... as has been told you many different ways in many different topics and with as many examples as I can imagine, you need to balance the micro with the macro a little more. Yes, you specifically, need to open yourself more than you've shown yourself to have at this point.
Yours in lucks
- Takamba"
I agree, you should be preaching to the Wiccans, everyone (almost) that I know, who is doing the great work realises that the problems facing the world are extremely complex and will not be helped by wishing they would go away.
Personally I don't hold the slightest regard or interest for so called "results magic", which usually has no results worth mentioning; and I find it a tad annoying that I should be lumped in with the crystal waving feel good crowd.I am above all a pragmatist.
If you wish into your right hand and shit into your left hand, which one is going to fill up fastest?
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@Froclown said
"That means Promoting Thelema to the people, establishing it in small communities to test it out and improve it's application, to design company logistics that conform to Thelema. To put the values out in the media and to actively work against the messages of Democracy and Equality, and all that promote victimhood, slave morals, entitlement, etc. To promote Aristocracy.
Not to pray over a sigil, and imagine a blue light warming the hearts of the world, then looking at pictures of kittens with a warm feeling of self congratulations of how much "Spiritual work" you have done to serve humanity."
Froclown, I largely agree with much of your post. If we don't bring something into the world of Assiah, it seems somehow incomplete. I'm sure there are lots of ways to fool ourselves into sitting on our thumbs.
However, there is one key place that you lose me:
When you take your personal ideals of what needs changing, and assume that those are the universal changes we need to make. I neither know nor care what your will is. It's like a musician in an orchestra who imagines that their instrument and notes are the only ones that should be played. In a properly functioning orchestra, sometimes there's harmony, sometimes there's dissonance. Sometimes notes compete, sometimes they blend or play in unison. Sometimes they have to observe rests.
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if we don't make those changes I listed, every last human being on earth will die.
There is no other world no souls, if we all die that's it, game over the end.
No one can do their own WILL until the WHOLE system is re-designed into a general thelemic order. it is only within the Community of Thelemites that the conditions are created where any individual can be fully engaged in their own Will.
All the parts of the Mandala can only serve their purpose in the structure of the Mandala as a whole.
"No two rings link, but all 5 do."
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@Froclown said
"if we don't make those changes I listed, every last human being on earth will die."
That's going to happen no matter what we do. It's just the order and timing of it that can change.
However, in terms of lists of items that exist materially, I would point out that the future is not one of them.
"No one can do their own WILL until the WHOLE system is re-designed into a general thelemic order. it is only within the Community of Thelemites that the conditions are created where any individual can be fully engaged in their own Will."
And here I think you've uncovered a point of INESTIMABLE value.
*Your brain has told you a lie that helps delay your personal Great Work. *
That the GW cannot be completed until an unrealistic goal is accomplished. Consider how the ruach benefits from this, since it can delay something that will, on a certain level, mean its own death.
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What' seems so clear to my mind and some others commenting on this thread as I understand them is this:
The hope of the Thelemic ascendency is the result of people discovering and prosecuting their true wills.
What it isn't is an abstract idea that x, y, and z has to happen, and that that will be more or less the same, as if people had discovered their true wills. You cannot substitute this prerequisite with an idealized vision of what it would mean if people were to do this—it's not the same thing.
That doesn't stop this notion of ours from being an ideal, but no one really knows what the fulfillment of this ideal will entail. I mean you don't even have to call this ideal Thelema! It is what it is no mater how it comes about.
And to the degree that people have to do this on their own, there is no public policy that can ever be mandated, unless it is someones true will to make it so! In which case they will not need to be talked into doing anything via an argument. Oh, and they will succeed!
Love and Will
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To understand how to organise a community so than every member is able to perform their essential function without being bossed around and compelled to work against their interests. It is helpful to combine the principles of Skinner's walden two. with the science of permaculture farming and the relation of the cell to the body.
A single cell alone, can not perform it's function. The cell does not appear out of the void, it is shaped by the whole body to serve a particular function in the body as a whole, alone the cell has no function, at that point it's WILL is to insert itself into a place in an organism where it can fulfil it's function.
The same is true for a heart or a liver, it has no purpose alone, it has to be supported by the action of the other organs and it's function contributes to the other organs. When you take the heart out of the body, it dies. It can beats but without purpose, away from the lungs and nervous system and disconnected from the arteries, it can only wither up.
In fact it is the very activity of the other organs and the forces that act upon the organ as well as the forces it is capable of exerting that define it's function, it's True WILL.
Thus if we have a organs and no body, we need to have some one with the wisdom to discern the properties, the needs and abilities of each organ, so that we can discern how to arrange them into a whole body where each WILL supports the Will of the others. Thus figuring out how no fit oneself into a greater whole, is vital to every individual true Will.
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You're still sidestepping your original internal contradiction.
If NO PERSON can do their True Will until after such-and-such changes take place, then it cannot be anyone's True Will to enact such-and-such changes.
Your analogy is similarly flawed. Mono-cellular organisms predate complex multi-cellular organisms by millions of years.
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no I said no one can FULLY do their well or do it efficiently.
Let's say it's your WILL to say grow wheat so you will have meal for the cakes of light.
If you don't own any land, you can't grow wheat, so your will then is to buy land.
If your knife is dull, you can't harvest the wheat, so your will is to find a whet stone.
If some one is grasping your wind pipe, you can't breathe, so your will is to fight for freedom.So your Will is to bake bread to make people happy and healthy and take pride in doing good for others. You can better fulfil your will if you are part of a community than buys bread, where some one grows wheat, and some one raises chickens, and some one runs a dairy. You can then trade bread for flour and eggs and milk, and thus can bake bread, and the people in your community including those that raise your ingredients and repair your ovens, are happy and healthy and able to fulfil their own WILL, which are all aimed at the great work that is the establishment of a community of happy, healthy, fulfilled individuals all doing their own Will fully and without major frustrations.
If you are alone an island, you have to grow your own wheat, and raise your own cows and chickens. Also you have to build your own oven. Your day will get more and more busy, and in the end, you eat your bread alone and unfulfilled.
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"no I said no one can FULLY do their well or do it efficiently. "
erm:
"No one can do their own WILL until the WHOLE system is re-designed into a general thelemic order."
If you're going to change what you say, then there's not much point in me engaging you any more. 93
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Well it took me some time to get up to speed on this topic. I had originally wanted to comment on my definition, ect. But gosh golly gee we sure have gotten into a bunch of other stuff.
I am with Dar, in that I do not think the gw is to bring the kingdom of god to earth, or any other such thing. The kingdom is established, but I do believe that things with in the kingdom are constantly changing and this are fading away, and things are sharpening new tools so to speak, So I guess that for me, the gw is that process in which I test my limits, self restrict if I may, and then build up my self so that I can break free of those self limiting
Restrictipns, and become a little bit different then I was before.I hear allot of passion and great ideas, but ideas without action isn't even masturbation
It's just getting a hard on, and then you get blue balls, A tension that is blinding.BMFuller taught that to criticize a system is useless, you have to make the system obsolete. I for one would be very unsettled if instead of a USDA grade a serlion, I bought one with a different stamp of endorsement.
Even though I hate it at times, this system does work for the most part, and the parts that seem to fail, fail because........well my heart says fear, but my brain says ignorance.....I think that they are synonyms for the same idea.
I actively work in my community, I put myself out there. Even though I think a lot of what my community does is silly, and ineffectual, I still am out ther walking and talking and stirrin the pot.
Fro clown, you posted a link to some persons private blogg, well maybe not private, but with only four subscribers, so it's pretty low key. You thought that it would be nice to share with us here, how some one gets you and understands your pov. I will say that I think you weakened your stance by that. That fellow said a lot of smack, and while I love fruitcake and completely understand the symbology of that cake, I understood his slur as an attack, But from an attacker who does not have the courage to come here, login and say that to my face. He said many things about Mr. Eshelman. Yet will not say them here where Mr. Eshelman has the chance to rebut if he so desires.
That person IMO is not doing what Mr. Eshelman is........he is not putting himself out there, He is not making himself available, And that is what the GW is, It is making ones one pov, ones own radiance available for the rest.
It was also mentioned how the Beatles suck, and wish they were the Stones.
That is actually a very deep statement,
I personally believe that modern music has two audiences, bands that play for Goddesses and bands that play for Gods. When I worked in the dance hall, even though 90 percent of the people in the clubs were men, older men.......all the music that was played was girlie girl stuff. And boy oh boy, those blokes had some of the biggest smiles on their faces, cause the girls were happy, and dancing and being nice to them.If momma is happy, then everyone is happy is a saying I have heard. And I think it's right. I don't think that for one minute John, or Paul or ringo, or George wanted to be anything other then what they were. They made girls happy. The stones on the other hand, well I bet they had a few moments where they wondered if.......
Probably not, I am just frothing off here.
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Again some one replies to the great work with Narcissistic explanations about improving oneself and experiencing life better for oneself, etc.
"self improvement is masturbation" (Fight club)
The great work is not about YOU or ME, it is about the world and society as a whole things bigger than you and me. A human is a tiny insignificant bit of nothing, it's life, death and happiness are nothing, all that matters is what it can produce beyond itself in the whole. The word is to build itself up so that it can be useful as a stepping stone for that which is greater. Not self for vanity sake, or pleasure for it's own sake.
