Exploring the Qliphoth
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@Cygnus said
"Also, using the Genii in Liber 231 and constructing more standard pathworkings using 777 attributions and Averse pentagrams/hexagrams—these, I'm assuming, are completely different experiences/astral zones? What exactly IS the difference between using the "old" ways of pathworking vs. using Liber 231?"
FWIW I see no reason that one necessarily would use averse pentagrams etc. (I'm not saying not to. I'm saying I see no reason to do so. Therefore, I'm suspicious of such things that have a risk of easily playing to the "cool factor.")
I listed the spirits in Liber 231 in my 776 1/2 just as the next Yetziratic beings in sequence.
I'm curious why you think there is some "new" way of approaching these vs. some "old" way (and, in fact, wondering what "old" way you had in mind). I've never had a need to vary procedure when working with Q'lippothic beings; rather, the extension of other methods painted the simplest path.
But maybe I'm not understanding the questions you are asking.
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Averse pentagrams for averse paths; it's worked for me before. I refer to Liber 231 as "new" simply because it was written later in Crowley's career and is non-Golden Dawn.
What would your procedure for opening and skrying a Qliphothic path or sphere be?
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@Cygnus said
"What would your procedure for opening and skrying a Qliphothic path or sphere be?"
Just continue down the hierarchy: For example, after Divine Name, Archangel, Angel, Intelligence, Spirit, reaffirming the authority relationship at each step... just go one more level.
BTW, the term "Qliphothic [sic] path or sphere" has no meaning to me. There aren't multiple Paths of Shin. The better language is "the Q'lippoth of a Path or Sphere" - sorry of that's too pedantic, but I think it's an important point. The Q'lippoth of Resh are part of the continuity in Resh in exactly the same way that Raphael is - but vibrating in a different World.
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Aha!
Question though: Liber 231 is about working with SPIRITS which I believe aren't really working with the energies of the psychic zones of the Spheres and Paths themselves in the same way that working with Bartzabel is not working with Geburah; it's working with Bartzabel, a dude who lives in Geburah and may embody many of its qualities at a very very down-stepped almost "street" level but can in no way be called the thing itself.
For instance, when calling up a path in Yetzirah, I would use the appropriate pentagrams and hexagrams, divine names, godforms, incense etc. as per Liber 777 and Liber O and then poke around on the astral. But I get different, personified experiences if I call up specific Intelligences and Spirits than if I just use the divine names and poke around the whole area?
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@Cygnus said
"I'm trying to distinguish between, say, "the Qlipha of Peh" and "the Spirit of the Qlipha of Peh"—if there is a difference, you seem to be implying there's not?"
I'm not sure what the second term would mean. It's not a standard term. - And are you singling out one specific Q'lippah of Peh? One usually speaks of the Q'lippoth of [for example] Peh, meaning the entire cohort.
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I'm aiming to get the cohort, and want to make sure I don't get just a specific resident. Liber 231 gives sigils for "Genii." I want to see the total Qlipha of the Path, not just something that lives there; as in calling up Geburah instead of Bartzabel...
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@Cygnus said
"I'm aiming to get the cohort, and want to make sure I don't get just a specific resident. Liber 231 gives sigils for "Genii." I want to see the total Qlipha of the Path, not just something that lives there; as in calling up Geburah instead of Bartzabel..."
Ah, I think i see the confusion point. You're using "Qlipha" as the plural, but it's the singular. (Btw, the Peh in rhe middle of the word is a hard Peh, not a Phey.)
Yes, the similar thing is in summoning the whole Choir of Angels, such as the Seraphim, and getting the whole mob rather than a single Seraph.
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Alright. Still a bit confused... so, if I want to see the Qliphoth of Geburah, I'd call up Elohim Gibor, Kamael, Zamael, Graphiel, Bartzabel and then A'arab Zaraq?
And if I wanted to see the Qliphoth of Resh? Just scry the sigil of Raflifu from Liber 231?
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@Cygnus said
"Alright. Still a bit confused... so, if I want to see the Qliphoth of Geburah, I'd call up Elohim Gibor, Kamael, Zamael, Graphiel, Bartzabel and then A'arab Zaraq?"
Oreb Zeraq are the Q'lippoth of Netzach, but, yeah, you've got the idea. (For Geburah it is Golakhab, "Burners" or "Flaming Ones.")
The principle here is "Path, then Plane." You are attuning your consciousness to Geburah, then, anchoring it as best you can at the highest level, lowering the vibration to manifest the Golakhab.
"And if I wanted to see the Qliphoth of Resh? Just scry the sigil of Raflifu from Liber 231?"
No, same as above: You are attuning yourself to Resh at a low vibrational plane, so you would use: the Divine Name YHVH Eloah ve-Daath, the Archangel Raphael, the Angel Mikhael, Intelligence Nakhiel, Spirit Sorath, possibly (this is a theoretical question I don't know that anyone has confirmed with enough practice) the spirit/genius Ra-a-gioselahladnaimawa-ist, and then.. tada! ... Raflifu.
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Aha! OK, that makes sense. Although still a bit odd to me since the Intelligences and Spirits seem like such individualized entities in practice (IMO by the time you get down to Spirit on the power chain, you're already in a kind of "debased" or rather NON-intelligent version of the energy). But I can see how that would work.
Also, if I wanted to call up a path or sphere and explore EVERY nook and cranny of that SOB, it would make sense to just use the power chain and scry every individual segment all the way down to the Qliphoth.
But then, of course, I'd have to explore it using the power chains in all four worlds, wouldn't I? Good lord that would take forever... Although one wonders if trying to "astrally" explore something above Yetzirah wouldn't really work?
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@Cygnus said
"Aha! OK, that makes sense. Although still a bit odd to me since the Intelligences and Spirits seem like such individualized entities in practice (IMO by the time you get down to Spirit on the power chain, you're already in a kind of "debased" or rather NON-intelligent version of the energy). But I can see how that would work."
If they have any actual relationship to the Path, then they are under the jurisdiction of the higher names. You're just keeping "chain of command" intact.
"Also, if I wanted to call up a path or sphere and explore EVERY nook and cranny of that SOB, it would make sense to just use the power chain and scry every individual segment all the way down to the Qliphoth."
To explore every crook and nanny, you'd need several lifetimes.
If you haven't already established a solid relationship with the higher beings ruling a Path (such as its archangels), or if you don't have a ready on-demand conscious relationship with your HGA, it's seems extremely foolish to do anything with the Q'lippoth - so, yes, establish the other relationships first, then get some general experience of evocation of the lower Yetziratic manifestations (Intelligence & Spirit)... and make all of those prerequisite to going even lower.
"But then, of course, I'd have to explore it using the power chains in all four worlds, wouldn't I? Good lord that would take forever... Although one wonders if trying to "astrally" explore something above Yetzirah wouldn't really work?"
Yes, to Four Worlds.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"If you haven't already established a solid relationship with the higher beings ruling a Path (such as its archangels), or if you don't have a ready on-demand conscious relationship with your HGA, it's seems extremely foolish to do anything with the Q'lippoth - so, yes, establish the other relationships first, then get some general experience of evocation of the lower Yetziratic manifestations (Intelligence & Spirit)... and make all of those prerequisite to going even lower. "
Which would suggest that this level of work would be, like, an Adeptus Major or Adeptus Exemptus jam?
FWIW, I did extensive work with the Qliphoth and sex magick when first starting out and fucked myself for years, so... yeah. Looking to handle with like three hazmat suits on.
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@Cygnus said
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@Jim Eshelman said
"If you haven't already established a solid relationship with the higher beings ruling a Path (such as its archangels), or if you don't have a ready on-demand conscious relationship with your HGA, it's seems extremely foolish to do anything with the Q'lippoth - so, yes, establish the other relationships first, then get some general experience of evocation of the lower Yetziratic manifestations (Intelligence & Spirit)... and make all of those prerequisite to going even lower. "Which would suggest that this level of work would be, like, an Adeptus Major or Adeptus Exemptus jam?"
A lot of the deeper work with the Q'lippoth is, indeed, the special area of the Adeptus Major; and the HGA link, of course, is at least Adeptus Minor. But I included an "or." The Neophyte should be establishing a solid relationship with the guardians of each of the Paths, especially the archangels etc.
"FWIW, I did extensive work with the Qliphoth and sex magick when first starting out and {******} myself for years, so... yeah. Looking to handle with like three hazmat suits on."
Your prudence is admirable. I think people miss the point that this isn't where you start - it's more like the final area to explore.
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Thanks
At this point what I'm basically trying to establish is a full map. No doing extensive work with beings, no evocation, no asking for favors, no accepting gifts. I have a pretty good and balanced personal map of the Serpent Path in practice and I'm looking to map out the Qliphothic zones to have the necessary counterbalance. As in, I want to know where Rwanda is on the map and see what it looks like, but I don't want to go shopping for cheap rugs there. But even this, I suspect, at early levels, may be asking too much?
To what extent should one's map be extended while in the lower grades, pre-K&C?
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@Cygnus said
"At this point what I'm basically trying to establish is a full map."
My sense is that an initial "full map" means having checked out more or less all parts, but not necessarily in any depth. One can (and will) then go back many times. - Kind of like having a friend drive you around L.A. on your first visit, and show you the lay of the land and some highlights, but without stopping and checking anything out too much.
The initial task is to be able to "get out" - to awaken your senses, at will, to the Yetziratic level and "travel" where you will. Once that ability is well-honed, you have much latitude in where you go.
Also, in terms of "the full map," please understand that you'll only be able to trust your impressions on a tiny bit of it. Much of the Tree isn't assimilable until you reach a grade proximate to that "area." You can get impressions, sure... and you can "take the tour" ... but one risk is that you'll take what you experience seriously and start creating some sort of doctrine or coming to some sort of conclusions from it. This can be a bitch to overcome in later years. For this reason, most people spend most of their time in the lower parts of the Tree, or focussing on the elements, etc. - striving for the most authenticity of experience in areas they realistically reach and assimilate. (I'm not telling you what to do - just throwing out some thoughts.)
"No doing extensive work with beings"
But Q'lippoth are "beings" in much the same sense as, say, angels or spirits... so, if you follow your stated plan, you'd be working quite a lot with beings!
"I have a pretty good and balanced personal map of the Serpent Path in practice and I'm looking to map out the Qliphothic zones to have the necessary counterbalance."
You act like this is something different than "the Serpent Path." It isn't. I'm not quite sure what you're doing, but you keep coming up with things that sound like your divorcing the Q'lippoth fromn the rest of the Tree as some sort of separate framework. if so, that's a conceptual error. Same Tree, same areas, etc.
"To what extent should one's map be extended while in the lower grades, pre-K&C?"
The main thing is to be able to "get out" and explore, reliably and at will, in general. Besides that, there isn't a particular rule. For formal testing of someone in the A.'.A.'. curriculum, I would refer the Neophyte to his or her Zelator for this exact question. For someone not following that program, I'd suggest getting your basic grounding, and go after the details as your work necessitates or prompts.
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The drive around LA—that's it exactly, yes.
"You act like this is something different than "the Serpent Path." It isn't. I'm not quite sure what you're doing, but you keep coming up with things that sound like your divorcing the Q'lippoth fromn the rest of the Tree as some sort of separate framework. if so, that's a conceptual error. Same Tree, same areas, etc."
Actually, this is the opposite of what I'm doing—I'm trying to integrate the Qliphoth into the conceptual whole. It's just that I'm holding them at arm's length with a latex glove on. During my initial run I worked through the "basic tour" of the paths and Sephiroth, without directly engaging their Qliphothic aspects. I'm looking to correct that now (but only IF applicable at this point), by extending my "drive around LA" to the bad parts of the city now that I'm confident I know how to keep the doors locked!
Specifically, I'm trying to round out and complete the conceptual framework. Having only the data on the Sephiroth and Paths without understanding the Qliphothic aspect feels unbalanced to me.
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@Cygnus said
"Specifically, I'm trying to round out and complete the conceptual framework. Having only the data on the Sephiroth and Paths without understanding the Qliphothic aspect feels unbalanced to me."
Despite what you say, I'd like you to look closely at your language use: The sentence structure above acts as if "the Sephiroth and Paths" is something different from "the Qliphothic [sic] aspect."
Besides that... as you wish. I might remind you, though, of the teaching from the Vision of the 6th Aethyr: that they who seek only Beauty come nearest to the heart of Truth.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Besides that... as you wish. I might remind you, though, of the teaching from the Vision of the 6th Aethyr: that they who seek only Beauty come nearest to the heart of Truth."
Fascinating.
And definitely taken seriously. I lost a significant chunk of my young life from taking "Nightside of Eden" and related lines of inquiry at face value. As I rebuild the temple I'm confronted with two options: re-assess the Qliphoth in a mature way, and ultimately re-balance them, or continue to ignore them completely.
You seem to be suggesting that the latter is the way to go!
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I'm not saying ignore them... one should be mindful of them. But that doesn't mean one necessarily has to do anything with them directly most of the time.
We don't usually have much trouble giving expression to the pettiest aspects of our being. They show up all the time. I think it's hugely important to have a major sense of humor about oneself and one's flaws - and you can't enjoy the ongoing joke unless you're actually open to watching the show, i.e., seeing your own screwed up side when it pops up. This is most of the "dealing with the Q'lippoth" that most people need until way down the Path.
OTOH it isn't my place to tell you what you need in order to attain to the K&C of the HGA. Possibly what you are proposing is precisely what you need, your own way of working through Death & the Devil. But there isn't a single system I know well and respect that gives more than rare attention to doing anything directly with the Q'lippoth until far down the path.
We're good at being small. The work first needs to fix us unflinchingly on our greatness.