Questions on Liber Resh
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Crowley says the gain in the eucharist is the interval through which "man" is united with "God"
Look at the meaning of man and god as it is used in the book of lies ch. 69.
Consider the re-absorption of the force.
Is not the path of the tower also known as the mouth?
What might one say in the union of tower and mouth there is a splendid victory indeed?
How might yoga be used to achieve such a thing?
How much does the western ritual differ, save in mediation through "lower planes" gather than the purity of bakhti yoga.
It has been rumored however than in order to achieve this feat by yoga one may have to pay the price of Adam.
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"It has been rumored however than in order to achieve this feat by yoga one may have to pay the price of Adam."
Or be Kevin Smith, circa the early years.
Course I don't agree Froclown that the eucharist is sticking your d* in your m*... but hey, to each hir own.
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It's not my thought, it inner alchemy.
The notion is based on the idea that semen contains the life force or vital energy, chi, or whatever you want to call it. This is a theoretical notion of an energy or force that animates inanimate matter, that changes inert inorganic matter into life.
The idea is that this force is the spiritual energy that creates the vessel for the soul, there are notions that this will attract spirits to talismans, and that it can restore youth to the body, and create golems etc.
Now the idea in hindu ideology is Prana, if comes for. The sun and is also present in blood, and in concentration in sexaul fluids and in something called Amrita, which is a sort of semen like excretion produced from the third eye and drips down the back of the throa. Basically we have that there are at least two secretions of the charkas that Concentrate Prana, form the kundalini.
They idea is we concentrate Prana from sunlight, food we eat, and from breathing exersized that help store Prana from the air. Now, bu reabsorption of Prana or life force concentrated In secretions which would be otherwise lost, we are able to comcentrate them in our body. The official tantric techique is to abstain from sex, to learn prolonged sexual activity without emission and even a practice of reverse ejaculation.
Now the Eucharist method, is another means to reabsorb the Prana or life force, in a way that directs it back into the bloodstream. The 9th degree technique so-called allows for a mixing of male and female elements, which presumably actuate each other in some way. The method of the holy hexagram, is one of equal exchange, while the mass of the phoenix is an 8th degree rite of concentration. That of the gnostic mass is one of emanation in which the concentrated vital force is transmitted to a community where it manifests as cooperative activity, sharing of "life and light, sustenance and joy"
Now say what you will on the notion of a vital force, but as a ritual symbolic idea it's very effective, and it seems the sexual fluids, like that of embryionic fluids in eggs and in plant seeds do contain concentration of nutrients and chemical transmitters, some not commonly found in the diet.
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Well answered sir.
Just to be clear, your specific stance is that:
"a ritual symbolic idea it's very effective"
= but that doesn't answer the question, because it begs the further question - why is this symbolic idea effective (or maybe better put, what makes it more effective then other ideas)- sexual fluids carry some nutrients and chemical transmitters that upon further intake benefit the physical body - at this point in this specific conversation this seems to be still just a theory... unless one provides the suitable scientific documentation.
And also to be clear - I very much appreciate and enjoy your answer - just going to push you to keep going with it if you are game too. I also enjoy that you give the OTOish answer first, while maintaining a slight distance from the more mystical bits, and then offer a slight materialistic point of view; a good wealth of information. But what, in your opinion, makes it an effective ritual if there is no scientific evidence for the physical benefits of eating oneself... so to speak.
Also to answer the original question posed by kerlem93, would you say your final answer is that Eastern techniques are focused on "concentration" of force...
"Now, bu reabsorption of Prana or life force concentrated In secretions which would be otherwise lost, we are able to comcentrate them in our body. "
...in a way that is similar to the 8th degree "mass of the phoenix"?
Then why the Cornelius quote:
""At this point I stress that although I fully support further study, the student will quickly realize that eastern Tantric goals are far different than our own.""
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Well, I find it an effective ritual, because the effectiveness of rituals has to do often less with their litteral truth as it does with the consistence of their stories and myths and how they relate to visceral emotions and sensations, like in this case the sex instinct and in other rituals the fear of death, or the the imagery of wrathful Neptune as the rough seas and the anxiety they produce.
Rituals are more about poetry at truth, but if you can combine poetry and literal truth you have very effective rituals.
I guess it was more elements of the gnostic mass I found effective, the link between sun and phallus and it's link to sexual fluids of energy to light. And the whole common experience of sun light as the force of life that feeds the plants and it's mirror in the sex act as the sharing of life as well as the libido energy as light that is expressed in nonsexual activity as well. There is allot in this ritual that is poetic and also expresses natural science as well.
As for the solo rite like that of the phoenix, I am not a knowledgeable on the science behind it, if there is any. It's a tantric idea, I suppose that the best test would be to put it into practice, and try to objectively record it's effects, as best possible. Crowleys journal method may be examined by a third party to see changes in subjective states, personality, behavior, beliefs etc which may not be obvious to the individual. But this method is not particuraly accurate without some more objective measures, as journals can be fudged pretty easy, things as simple as the student being too embarrassed to record something, over looking something important, or purposely changing the journal entries to give a false impression. Of course a thoural study would include investigation into why one is embarrassed or why one would want to fudge facts to fit expectations. Etc.
I guess the main difference in eastern methods is they tend to use these techniques only for a type of black school spiritual attainment, thet is the withdrawing from life and the world, the refusal to mix ones precious bodily fluids with the world of sin and wickedness. This is opposed to the thelemic white school method of pouring ones blood into the cup of abominations. That is to use sexual rites to untie with the world and bring light to others, rather than to hold it in and seal oneself up.
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Well explained I think.
To touch upon a point: Liber Resh, seems to me, to have the additional benefit of aligning oneself to something greater than "you" (royal you, not you specifically) - in this case the cycles of the sun around the earth.
In your explanation the point I missed - and would like help clarifying - is where in the Tantra of the East, or the OTO methods, does someone GET light from others? You used the phrase "unite with the world" (but that is poetry - what do you MEAN), and "bring light to others" (again poetry - what do you mean so I don't superficially color your poetry with my own understanding). Both phrases seem very "you" based. Where does the learning/influx come in - or are we just jerking ourselves off?
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@Froclown said
"What happens if you keep pouring the coffee back into the machine?
It gets stronger and more concentrated each time through."
This is absolutely not true and I know from actually doing it. Have you not heard of the concept of "diminishing return?" You aren't as smart as you think you are. More doing, less talking - that's my suggestion
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I have a brief question about Liber Resh..
It was explained, in another topic, the symbolic location of
the practitioner is placed between Yesod and Tipharet.My question is, why would one use the LVX signs towards Tipharet?
Isn't this an "Old Aeon" perspective? Aren't the LVX signs, according
to the "New Aeon", referring to Malkuth? -
@TOHPA said
"My question is, why would one use the LVX signs towards Tipharet? Isn't this an "Old Aeon" perspective? Aren't the LVX signs, according to the "New Aeon", referring to Malkuth?"
In A.'.A.'., they remain the grade signs of 5=6, the Tiphereth grade. See the frontispiece of Magick in Theory & Practice for the grade signs up to Tiphereth.
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Although I remember the illustrations of the LVX signs in Magick in Theory & Practice, I can't recall it mentioning a direct correspondence with 5=6. I can't check it out right now though, but I trust your words.
This issue has troubled me quite a bit, lately. Various Thelemic literature suggest that the LVX signs and the IAO formula are applied only in Malkuth, since the concept of resurrection has been replaced with the Enthronemend of RHK in Tiphareth. So, if I may inquire, what is the role of the LVX formula in Tiphareth from a Thelemic point of view? How can it practically be applied and what's its role in the K&C with the HGA?
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For starters... don't confuse the LVX signs with the Osiris legend. That's the part that is old aeon.
Second, LVX is the entire formula of initiation up to (and through) Tiphereth. It is the essence of adepthood. Even 6=5 and 7=4 are grades of LVX. However, the aspiration of those latter grades is toward the Abyss, so we start to see the NOX formulae interwoven. LVX is the formula of attainment in Tiphereth, and NOX the formula of attainment in Binah.
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@Froclown said
"Now say what you will on the notion of a vital force, but as a ritual symbolic idea it's very effective, and it seems the sexual fluids, like that of embryionic fluids in eggs and in plant seeds do contain concentration of nutrients and chemical transmitters, some not commonly found in the diet."
Abstinate from ejaculation so that in time you won't produce semen, that way you'll preserve those nutrients.
(I'm not suggesting for anyone to really do that, of course)
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I'd like to discuss Liber Resh from a different point of view. Maybe the Godforms honored aren't the central issue; maybe Resh is actually a tool for helping you to establish a different point of view. I'll explain what I mean. Crowley obviously felt Resh was very important, he made it the fundamental ritual for aspirants to the A.:A.: for example, but the question remains: what is the goal of it? I believe the answer to that question was given by Fr. Achad in an essay titled: "Stepping out of the old aeon and into the new", which Crowley published in The Equinox Vol III, No I. In it Achad suggests that the conception of a dying and resurrected God, which was the central idea of the religion of the old aeon was based on the daily "birth" and "death" of the sun. Since we now understand that the movement of the Earth creates the appearance of the movement of the Sun, we realize that the Sun is always shining on the Earth, at midnight, sunrise, noon, and sunset. If you put this idea clearly in mind, you shift your perspective from the cyclic nature of planetary existence to become a solar being- From Samsara to Moksha, liberation from the cycle of re-birth. Perhaps Resh was designed as a first step toward solar consciousness.
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@siriusly23 said
"I'd like to discuss Liber Resh from a different point of view. Maybe the Godforms honored aren't the central issue; maybe Resh is actually a tool for helping you to establish a different point of view. I'll explain what I mean. Crowley obviously felt Resh was very important, he made it the fundamental ritual for aspirants to the A.:A.: for example, but the question remains: what is the goal of it? I believe the answer to that question was given by Fr. Achad in an essay titled: "Stepping out of the old aeon and into the new", which Crowley published in The Equinox Vol III, No I. In it Achad suggests that the conception of a dying and resurrected God, which was the central idea of the religion of the old aeon was based on the daily "birth" and "death" of the sun. Since we now understand that the movement of the Earth creates the appearance of the movement of the Sun, we realize that the Sun is always shining on the Earth, at midnight, sunrise, noon, and sunset. If you put this idea clearly in mind, you shift your perspective from the cyclic nature of planetary existence to become a solar being- From Samsara to Moksha, liberation from the cycle of re-birth. Perhaps Resh was designed as a first step toward solar consciousness."
How shall I say this to be oh so gentle as possible. ...... uhm..... yeah.
ps. good catch!
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I came at it from a different approach.
Those four different imagined perspectives are valuable organizers to one's psychic day.
People hear me talk about some of my crazy and about "plotlines" that originate in the unconscious and can be projected on people and events throughout the day. I struggled much more with such things before I internalized the thought that I was constantly hearing at least 4 different opinions about how the plotline was progressing - that the whole truth was bigger than any one of the four perspectives - that it takes an entire day to hear the whole truth.
Now it's time for the Ra in thy rising perspective.
Now it's time for the Ahathoor in thy triumphing perspective.
Etc..It really helped order my experience and reduce a lot of the wackadoo.
I believe it is nothing if not completely functional.
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@Aegis said
"I came at it from a different approach.
Those four different imagined perspectives are valuable organizers to one's psychic day.
People hear me talk about some of my crazy and about "plotlines" that originate in the unconscious and can be projected on people and events throughout the day. I struggled much more with such things before I internalized the thought that I was constantly hearing at least 4 different opinions about how the plotline was progressing - that the whole truth was bigger than any one of the four perspectives - that it takes an entire day to hear the whole truth.
Now it's time for the Ra in thy rising perspective.
Now it's time for the Ahathoor in thy triumphing perspective.
Etc..It really helped order my experience and reduce a lot of the wackadoo.
I believe it is nothing if not completely functional."
Not that there's anything to disagree with up there... but to me Resh is summed up
Unity uttermost showed, I adore the might of thy breath.....