Ecology, sustainability and the coming "apocalypse"
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93 modernP et. all,
"1) Do you think an "apocalypse" of sorts is headed our way?"
Desperate times call of desperate measures
. I think we have always lived in "desperate times" and that in turn has given rise to many of our technological advancements, shifts in human consciousness, etc. While the road ahead may have some difficult times where it may seem that the heavens are going to fall on us, I don't believe that we are close to self-destruction. We are resilient and challenges for us serve as a catalyst to expand our consciousness and the interaction we have with our universe."2) Do you think it is even viable to counter this by promoting ecological awareness, the reform of rampant consumerism or is it a case of "too little too late"?"
In my opinion it is never too late to fight for what one feels is necessary to better their immediate surroundings. Promoting ecological awareness can only serve to benefit humanity as a whole, but as far as consumerism is concerned it is up to the individual to spend (or go in debt) their earnings as they see fit. I don't necessarily see material wealth as a bad thing, it allows me to provide for my family and the freedom to delve into understanding myself. Balance is key in my book. Too much of a good thing has the potential to distract one from what is crucial to one's life.
93, 93/93
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93 modernP,
"I'm all for the prosperity of the individual but it's a particularly difficult moral question for those of us in the advertising industry who use our audio-visual magick to create needs where there simply are none."
I don't work in the advertising industry but I can see your point of view and the moral dilemma that arises from it. I don't know if there is a quick solution or viable alternative that would satisfy everyone. The solution in my eyes, lies solely with the individual (the consumer). It is the consumer that has to be responsible and conscious of the decisions they make and not fall prey to the media blitz and all of its glitter.
As someone that works in the advertising industry, what changes would you implement to address the issue you have raised?
In your initial post you stated:
"The Zeitgeist trilogy of documentaries delves quite deeply into the problem and exposes how consumerism with no thought of consequence is embedded in our monetary system, our economics and our incessant need for material objects to fill the void of a deep dissatisfaction with life."
Lack of spiritual fulfillment would perhaps be one of the reasons for the deep dissatisfaction and the need to acquire material posessions to fill the void.
"I would personally opt for a gentle water-birth into sustainability but given that board members care about one thing only then if the herd is to be destroyed in mass well then one may as well profit off it!"
What I have stated previously and my current reply are my viewpoints and I did not intend to speak on behalf of others, I apologize if that is how I came across. I was also not encouraging "the herd to be destroyed in mass" but rather trying to state that each individual is responsible for the actions they undertake.
Thank you for your post, as it allowed me to reflect on my own spending habits and the impact that advertising plays in my daily life.
93, 93/93
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"I think this thread was originally more to ask the question whether other Thelemites see the same patterns (rather than addressing my personal moral dilemma).
Thelemites don't seem to be particularly interested or concerned with ecology from what I've seen (unlike say Wiccans for example). I think a lot of us tend to distance ourselves from "New Agey" subjects. Perhaps I'm mistaken of course, and I'll probably be chastised for generalizing. I'm a Thelemite myself so I'm not pointing fingers I'm just curious to know my brothers' and sisters' thoughts on these issues."BTW-clue me in what 0=2 means????
When I mentioned that I thought the wrong contraction was being used I certainly didn not mean to imply stupidity- it is just in my world I hear alot of this or that, and it seems to be that "people" think you have to exclude, instead of include.
regarding the above quote- when I read it I found myself saying "I do, Me, me....I DO"
But then again I spent many years under the "Wicca" brand.
I am that annoying little lady who cleans up the garbage on the side of the road in spring, who grows food, and tends animals, who shops exclusively at 2nd hand stores, yada yada yada, my whole life it seems revolves around being aware of what I consume, where it comes from, and then IMO the most important question how I process what I consume and dispose of my waste.
I have been called a gorilla gardener, an eco warrior, and even Lorax ( I do speak for the Trees!). My relationship with my environment is the most important relationship I have, and every act no matter how mundane I do from a heart centeredness.
When I watch nature shows, and see the plight of Forests, and animals my heart bleeds and I wish I could do ALOT more. I think though that making sure I am consistantly making the best, healthiest, and harmonious choices for me and my family is hard work enough.
One of the things that I have to constantly remind myself is that the world is made up of all different levels, of mentality, spirituality, awareness.....
the average iq is about 110 last I heard. Most people are not functioning at a level that allows deeper thought, feeling....I got into a bit of a tiff with my older sis the other day in our Tarot class. She doesnt much like AC and the Thoth deck, and started to say some "smack" about how DWTW......excuses behavior, and shirks responsibility.....lets a person abuse and distort...WOW.....I take thoses words to be the opposite, it commands responsibility and breaks patterns of abuse and clarifies the wolrds....
I think that this age we are in commands us to learn to think and feel about our selves, to learn our personal nuanaces and angles. I think that inorder to know thou, one has to play, to consume.....if I never wasted all that paint and paper I would have never know I couldnt paint very well, but that I can sing. If I never used all those tires friving all around NY state, I would have never known I could climb trees and jump into lakes.....
Children HAVE to consume, it is amazing how much they consume, but they are growing and if you dont feed them they get stunted growth. If we are in the Aeon of the Child, it sits well with me that we too need to consume, but that like a toddler scribbling on paper it may take us a while (and patient parents) to learn to use both sides of the paper before we recycle it.
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@Soror KA said
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@modernP said
"93s Veronica.Thanks for your post. 0=2 is a formula for "creation" so to speak. Crowley spoke of it a little. To me it expresses the idea of duality arising from "negative existence". Hehe, I was simply slapping myself at my own stupidity!
93 93/93"
What's 'negative existance'?
Look...I'm serious!!! I want a definition here! No more mystical shilly shally around the edges of what is conveniantly called 'reality'! Where's 'it' at, man?
No... I'm really not serious tho.
"One of the ways I think about it is that +1 is the past (in my memories, a fixed condition for the most part) and -1 is the future (as it hasn't been created yet). In the middle is existence itself, a big 0.
That's a very limited hint as the whole "theory" is much larger than that.
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93,
@Soror KA said
"What's 'negative existance'?
Look...I'm serious!!! I want a definition here! No more mystical shilly shally around the edges of what is conveniantly called 'reality'! Where's 'it' at, man?
No... I'm really not serious tho. "
Negative existence is where this response "was", until interfaced by a particular point-of-view and transferred into the space-time continuum, resulting in it being placed here by some guy typing.
Love is the law, love under will.
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I received the following definition of 0=2 in this short thread;
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The earth has been around for a long time before us. It would destroy us before we could destroy it, and it would probably bounce back to its original form (or something even better). Actually, to think that we could affect such a large ball of dirt in such a profound way is the ultimate in hubris.
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Yes, it's true: if you dig a tunnel and it caves in on you, then after it caves in, the rock likely will go about it's merry way with daffodils growing on top.
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Our combined confront is to considerably decrease our brunt on the local and global surroundings and start on to re-establish our natural resources in a cost-effectively and generally accountable manner.
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The Abby and it's idealized expression in diary of a drug fiend, seem to be ecologically and economically sound self supporting communities off the grid and thus safe from collapse. Also the blue equinox model,is an excellent means to establish the organic state and promote a natural hierarchy and caste system where each Will can finds it's level and everyone find a higher purpose in the group as a whole. These are all compatible with project Venus, and I see many useful ideas adaptable from skinners walden two.
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@modernP said
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It seems as though society as a whole and particularly our Christian-influenced Western society with their strong focus on an afterlife have not stopped to look at the present moment (and the future consequences) of human life itself. The Zeitgeist trilogy of documentaries delves quite deeply into the problem and exposes how consumerism with no thought of consequence is embedded in our monetary system, our economics and our incessant need for material objects to fill the void of a deep dissatisfaction with life. "Talking about our money system... I think you need to watch “Debt based money system" 1-5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8You can also view “Money as Debt II Promises Unleashed” 1-8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_doYllBk5NoI hope this addition to the thread does not detract from it.
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The economy based on human need is exactly what Crowley was driving at with the economy of the abby. The theory goes that you remove news papers and sales pitches from peoples reading and have them read classics instead, that way they are not getting their heads filled up with artificial desires for things Thayer don't really need. That is part of knowing your will, is knowing that superfluous possessions are nothing more than a distraction and needless burden. In this way, the society as a whole does not waste time and money on useless things that pollute, create noise, lead to debts, and other ways interfere with individual will. The other side of the coin, is that whatever is actually needed by any individual is made available, some one may share or give away an burdensome object, or the community as a whole knowing that there is mutual benefit in every member being bake to perform the function. Of their will, would work to acquire that needed object or resource that the individual lacks. Ideally no one would have to actually ask or beg for the needed object as ones brothers in the order would recognize that need and offer it as if repaying a debt to you.
In this way there is little need for money in the community, as the mutual aid is secured and frivolous desires are minimized. Unlike in our consumer culture based not on human need but mass production for profit, where every means is used to stir the passions and fears to foster greed and lust for things ultimately unsatisfying, just to drive the profits, and to keep us all slaves to debt. This is exactly contrary to your true will, which is drilling the passions to discover what is truly fulfilling to you, while the media culture only wants to stir up a cloud of passions and muddle your mind so your true will is lost in a noose sea of distracting whims.
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Sustainability is important because all the choices we pursue and all the actions that we make today will affect everything in the future. We need to make sound decisions at present in order to avoid limiting the choices of generations to come.
[www.morrisonhershfield.com/sustainability/Pages/default.aspx:hvfn63fi]](http://www.morrisonhershfield.com/sustainability/Pages/default.aspx:hvfn63fi)
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93,
Just to make it clear, I haven't read the other posts, so I'm sorry if I'm interrupting anything.
- Do you think an "apocalypse" of sorts is headed our way?
If I think rationally, I don't think so. At least, not one of those "the planet will blow up!" things, that is. The planet is billions years old, people have lived on it for millions of years. Why would it suddenly end? Why would it happen in OUR period? Of course there are countless of theories, but really, there have been for decades.
The only apocalypse I'm worried about is a human one. We're becoming individualistic, self-centered, greedy, needy and cruel. Nobody cares for their fellow human beings anymore, or for nature, or for culture, or for all of those things that make the world beautiful and bearable. There is war over stupid things, there's riots over poverty. Every time I take another walk, a part of me dies, because nature is being heartlessly demolished for new houses (I guess it must be my Taurus side, in touch with nature so deeply) and nobody I whine about it to seems to know what I'm talking about.
- Do you think it is even viable to counter this by promoting ecological awareness, the reform of rampant consumerism or is it a case of "too little too late"? Do we try to live in harmony with the natural laws of the planet or do we support the coming destruction.
How have we grown so arrogant as to think we can stop the forces of Mother Nature by selling people 'green' products? Honestly?
Those were my two cents.
93, 93/93
- Do you think an "apocalypse" of sorts is headed our way?
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i read all the posts to find out what others think about the zeitgeist movement. all i'm gonna say is, i don't like it. it's half truths blended with propaganda and misses an important aspect of story telling. it lacks a certain kind of magic it purports to have, in my opinion, of course.
sustainability is where it's at. it's fun to do. an elder recently told me though, he doesn't think focusing on the ecology is where it's at. all you have to do is love your mother. so then i thought, being he's an indian, he is speaking about mother earth and taking care of her. but he wasn't. it made me wonder lots of things. especially since i was an enviro. major (sustainable communities). i wonder if everyone loves their mother. i wonder if there is any aspect that this particular message (a lot of tribes talk of this as a part of prophecy) has value in relationship to mother earth and her ability to tend to her children? shrug
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Wine, song, food, fire, clothes, shelter and seed. No mourning for the old empire when the indigo children come: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kntk-APTfg
By the lead singer of tool. Is a member of a TOTO offshoot lodge. Lives in the hills of Arizona which he's jokingly referred to as future beach property. This song gets at the idea of a future where an electromagnetic pulse is emitted from the sun and destroys our digital world.
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@anistara said
"sustainability is where it's at. it's fun to do. an elder recently told me though, he doesn't think focusing on the ecology is where it's at. all you have to do is love your mother. so then i thought, being he's an indian, he is speaking about mother earth and taking care of her. but he wasn't. it made me wonder lots of things. especially since i was an enviro. major (sustainable communities). i wonder if everyone loves their mother. i wonder if there is any aspect that this particular message (a lot of tribes talk of this as a part of prophecy) has value in relationship to mother earth and her ability to tend to her children? shrug"
This made me think of an event that many young men experience, effectively changing them from titans into lovers. If you spend enough time among young people you can see this clearly in their early and mid teens. It's that moment when they fall in love and are 'softened' by this experience. Finally, they relate and identify with another person, and caring for that person stop being so concerned only with themselves. Before that happens they are grossly immature beings, selfish, heedless, cruel...
Love and Will
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@fool said
"Wine, song, food, fire, clothes, shelter and seed. No mourning for the old empire when the indigo children come: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kntk-APTfg
By the lead singer of tool. Is a member of a TOTO offshoot lodge. Lives in the hills of Arizona which he's jokingly referred to as future beach property. This song gets at the idea of a future where an electromagnetic pulse is emitted from the sun and destroys our digital world."
lives in jerome, near sedona and hopiland. caduceus cellars in-between. i like tool a lot, unsure if maynard is actually a thelemite due to the new age-ness of some lyrics. the sedona new age gets infiltrated into their music being that it's 5 miles down the road. i am opinionated (admitting).
hangar 18, i know too much (megadeth).
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@Dar said
"What do people think of the idea of a dual run 'Gift Economy' with a 'Resource Dollar Economy'?
i.e. - as proposed by the Science writer Kim Stanley Robinson in the 'Mars' trilogy?
Or how about the model of democratic business - as proposed by Ian Banks in the novel 'The Business'?"
all for the gift economy. in my culture we have the potlatch. it's an amazing thing to experience. it was banned in the 50's (the ban has been lifted fairly recently so we potlatch again) because it wasn't taxable. heathens...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch
it works though. no one left behind. *it's also a society built on hierarchy, status positions and secret societies. theres a trick in how it is maintained and has for thousands of years. no one gripes about the top people, aka chief famlies because they do well to take care of everyone-- we just have the most copper shields and bragging rights.<< an important element!
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I'll start my own thread if need be, but this is from an essay I recently wrote for an English class has to do with this subject. If Dar can post a novel I can too.
The Decline of Capitalism
The principles of capitalism are antagonistic to environmental stewardship. Consumer culture, with its emphasis on waste and overconsumption, cannot continue indefinitely without a major alteration in economic priorities. The worldwide obsession with “more,” a trend too widespread to attribute to any one culture or nation, is rapidly draining the limited resources of the planet. The monetary system, the basis by which money is created and traded, cannot be infinitely exploited without causing social collapse. While many economists and politicians hold that there is no real problem, a growing number of individuals are becoming increasingly aware of the imbalances between human consumption and the environment. By eliminating needless waste, improving resource management, and realizing the true value of “things,” it is possible that humanity can reduce this disturbing trend that threatens to make our planet a lifeless orb.
Capitalism has for its main premise the freedom of trade between individuals, an economic situation in which the wealth of each individual is determined by that individual themselves. Capitalism is also called the “free enterprise” system, and this is considered a fundamental part of any democracy. Yet is the free enterprise system truly free? Are the institutions of wage slavery and the ever-present desire for monetary gain compatable with the freedom of individuals? Not always. Capitalism, like any other economic system, requires that one choose from a fixed set of options, and these options are determined by consumer demand. Thus every aspect of the economy revolves around the consumer, an imaginary individual that has appeared like a parasitic growth on the underbelly of the free enterprise system. In a capitalist society, good is valued not for its own sake, but as a correlary of self-interest. In a society where self-interest, and not the greater good, takes precedence, human beings are no longer human beings, but consumers. It is for the sake of the consumer that this system exists in the first place, as, not surprisingly, the first aim of any capitalist system is the production of capital.
Everywhere, all over the world, ignorant minds plot to reduce the world to rubble. And why? For the sake of gain, or “capital,” the one and only reason for living. Without capital the earth will not move, the sun will not shine, the wheels of progress will grind to a halt and indiginous peoples across the globe will continue to live their lives free of “civilization,” and all the damning consequences that come with it. The guiding forces of “civilization,” addicted to the aimless vices of prosperity, are given over to the idea that our world has unlimited resources, and can be raped for an indefinite amount of timed without any consequences whatsover. No consequences, that is, unless you count displaced peoples, blasted ecosystems, cancerous diseases, and every other element of doom and destruction known to man. What folly to speak of future generations! Our children will grow up like lab rats, staring vacantly at blinking screens while the entire planet goes to shit. Yes, the future is bleak. Despite the concerns of countless individuals, from scientists to activists and holy men, society tends increasingly towards consumerism. In both the East and West, citizens of every nation are goaded like cattle to buy things they don't really need. Nowhere in the United States is this trend more widespread, or more amusing. “The United States is the most consumer-oriented society in the world,” says Juliet Schor, author of “Born to Buy.” Consumerism, a state of being in which the purchasing of goods is done for its own sake, is what our culture will be remembered for. Archeologists years hence will not be astounded by our skyscrapers or cathedrals, but by the majesty of the shopping mall. “What could this be,” they will say, “but the shrine of some glorious and unknown god?” The Romans had their baths, the Americans have their shopping malls. Every Saturday morning, hordes of eager consumers suit up in the latest garb and prepare to shop. And the carnage doesn't end there. Have you tried watching television lately? Commercials are multiplying at an alarming rate. Children in the throes of puberty conduct complex relationships with people they've never met, over the internet. Every city street is invested with billboards, every newspaper with ads, every radio station is awash with the jabber of car commercials. Not that there's much to listen to, but human beings can only withstand so much indignity. That is, unless they are conditioned to like it. Human beings, through the power of suggestion, can be induced to do just about anything. The first thing any student of economics learns is something called the “invisible hand,” a force present throughout society, that guides every human deed and rules over the consequences. “God,” you ask? No, self interest. Every human being has desires, wants, and needs. By appealing to these needs, through deceptive means or overtly, interested parties can increase net profit, maximize gain, and reap the manifold rewards of stupidity. The media, strangely enough, is involved in this overt deception, and works deliberately to distort facts. This state of being is inescapable. “Many adults respond to the critique of media and consumerism by shrugging it off, on the grounds that this culture is inescapable,” says Schor. Where facts cannot be distorted, they are directly falsified. The news and television and advertising agencies that make up the media control just about every aspect of modern life. They are, as it were, the backdrop that lends light to the deluded forces that comprise our sad civilization—and people listen to them! Most go willingly to the slaughter. The majority of human beings are too wrapped up in menial cares to give a shit about the state of humanity. Not until the situation is too outrageous, (and this is usually when people can no longer eat,) will the starved, enslaved mass of society revolt against its overseers. In America, the land of prosperity, it remains for those with a consience to assail the ears of their countrymen. Yet, once again, most are too self-absorbed to interest themselves in such distant concerns. There are mortgages to pay, new gadets to purchase, and a host of fresh new distractions being invented every minute to usurp the time and energy of our labor force. The votaries of democracy assert with ardent conviction that freedom is attained, yet there remains the institution of wage slavery, which is the art of giving human beings just enough to survive, so they can't become to comfortable or powerful to revolt. For some strange reason, most people either don't have a problem with this state of affairs. Perhaps in the passionate stages of youth an ardent desire for reform is espoused, but adulthood often brings the tiresome desolation of work and recouperation. The swarming market of useless goods and services touted by ubiquitous adverts and salesmen supplements this new, invisible slavery, and new converts are born every day. Furthermore, to implement the institution of wage slavery, the powers that be have fabricated a unique and powerful means by which to render their designs incarnate: “the system.” Those who have managed to free themselves from the constraints of mass media and consumer culture, have still to face “the system,” that favorite word of paranoiacs and meth freaks. What is “the system?” It is the political, social, and ethical framework of society, which shapes and determines the lives of its inhabitants. Were it not for the system, one could well escape to the desert and live in peace and dignity, like the Manson family. But the system is everywhere, and is designed to keep every member of society docile and uninformed. The remarkable thing about the system is that it is engineered, like a perpetual machine, to generate revenue from atrophy. The system reaps but does not sow; harvests, but does not plant. Bound by the fetters of debt and other such ingenious goads, the average man cannot help but be swept up in the tide of progress, and take his humble place beneath the cogs and gears. Human beings are not the aim and center of the universe. As Bacon sayeth, “for it is a false assertion that man is the measure of all things.” The cosmologists and astrologers of old approached the cosmos with fear and humility, struck with awe at the complexities of the universe. Not so with modern science which, thank God, has at last delineated the firmament into a convoluted aggregate of theories, phrases, numbers, and abstract speculation. The fundamental problems of humanity are here and now. This is not to denigrate the scientific community, but there are more useful ways to spend time besides discovering new types of plastics. Capitalism diverts everything to the cause of material gain, and perverts every activity to the end of profit. Nowhere is this tendency so prevalent as in the realm of education, where young minds are turned from their natural inclinations, and goaded into ready-made prisons called careers, at which point the graduate is made to swear an oath to the god Per Capita. The present generation is too involved in such pressing concerns as text messaging and the internet to be interested in the imminent demise of the planet earth. Sure, there are a healthy number of youths who see to the heart of the matter—but the institutions of education are here against them. What is school but a prolonged indoctrination in the dogmas of gain? From the very beginning, students are classified and predisposed to the society of their peers. The aim is conformity, and those who cannot embrace these arbitrary distinctions are cast by the wayside, unfit for the conditions required by a culture primarily concerned with producing consumers. Those who aren't corrupted by the institutional ladder are still subject to a working world where careers are measured in dollars per year, and idle concerns like personal happiness are bound to the fetters of materialism. Can human beings actually stand to be so quantified and objectified? Apparently so, as no huge societal change is yet taking place. Yes, there is activism, concern, even a widespread earnestness about the task at hand. But until these concerns become more powerful than those who operate the system (the holders of capital), no significant change will take place. Perhaps it will take something catastrophic to wake the denizens of humanity. Broad social change, throughout history, has always been accomplished by the lower classes. The formula is simple: when the upper classes of society become so engorged on gain that they control the majority of resources, the working classes revolt, driven by necessity to restore their rightful place in society. Human beings can stand a great deal of abuse, however, before they reach a state of rebellion, and in such a prosperous country as the United States, this change may likely precipitated from without. The economic situation of our country is established on principles that have no correlation with the laws of nature. In essence, the monetary system is based on the fictional premise that money, a vague enough thing, can be multiplied by itself indefinitely. Banks and other financial institutions lend money at interest to others, when in fact the assets involved don't even exist. Eveything is based upon speculation, and sometimes, when a handfull of cunning minds discover a way to exploit the monetary system, whole societies are driven into collapse. So, what exactly can one do, given the gravity of the situation? Well, to begin with, populations are growing at an alarming rate. While economists hold that resources are unlimited, this is simply not the case. An indefinite number of people can not indefinitely consume the resources of a planet for an indefinite amount of time. This formula should be at the forefront of every first-grade reading book, as it embodies the fundamental problem we face as a species. Humanity is spreading at a cancerous rate, and unless there is a change in cultural values, there is a high probability that the situation will implode, leading to resource battles, disease, and other such symptoms of planetary malaise. The average human being shows little interest in girding its loins for the prevention of re-population. It doesn't take much higher math: when the birth rate exceed the death rate, resources such as food, fuel, and other necesseties are in higher demand. If steps aren't taken to meet this demand in a sustainable way, dire consequences are the result.