Ecology, sustainability and the coming "apocalypse"
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"Do we try to live in harmony with the natural laws of the planet or do we support the coming destruction?"
I personally do not think that the correct conjuction is OR.
My children play with LEGO Blocks and build and build cool things. If they put them on a shelf once they made the model, they would not be able to make new things with them. it would just sit their and collect dust.
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93 modernP et. all,
"1) Do you think an "apocalypse" of sorts is headed our way?"
Desperate times call of desperate measures
. I think we have always lived in "desperate times" and that in turn has given rise to many of our technological advancements, shifts in human consciousness, etc. While the road ahead may have some difficult times where it may seem that the heavens are going to fall on us, I don't believe that we are close to self-destruction. We are resilient and challenges for us serve as a catalyst to expand our consciousness and the interaction we have with our universe."2) Do you think it is even viable to counter this by promoting ecological awareness, the reform of rampant consumerism or is it a case of "too little too late"?"
In my opinion it is never too late to fight for what one feels is necessary to better their immediate surroundings. Promoting ecological awareness can only serve to benefit humanity as a whole, but as far as consumerism is concerned it is up to the individual to spend (or go in debt) their earnings as they see fit. I don't necessarily see material wealth as a bad thing, it allows me to provide for my family and the freedom to delve into understanding myself. Balance is key in my book. Too much of a good thing has the potential to distract one from what is crucial to one's life.
93, 93/93
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93 modernP,
"I'm all for the prosperity of the individual but it's a particularly difficult moral question for those of us in the advertising industry who use our audio-visual magick to create needs where there simply are none."
I don't work in the advertising industry but I can see your point of view and the moral dilemma that arises from it. I don't know if there is a quick solution or viable alternative that would satisfy everyone. The solution in my eyes, lies solely with the individual (the consumer). It is the consumer that has to be responsible and conscious of the decisions they make and not fall prey to the media blitz and all of its glitter.
As someone that works in the advertising industry, what changes would you implement to address the issue you have raised?
In your initial post you stated:
"The Zeitgeist trilogy of documentaries delves quite deeply into the problem and exposes how consumerism with no thought of consequence is embedded in our monetary system, our economics and our incessant need for material objects to fill the void of a deep dissatisfaction with life."
Lack of spiritual fulfillment would perhaps be one of the reasons for the deep dissatisfaction and the need to acquire material posessions to fill the void.
"I would personally opt for a gentle water-birth into sustainability but given that board members care about one thing only then if the herd is to be destroyed in mass well then one may as well profit off it!"
What I have stated previously and my current reply are my viewpoints and I did not intend to speak on behalf of others, I apologize if that is how I came across. I was also not encouraging "the herd to be destroyed in mass" but rather trying to state that each individual is responsible for the actions they undertake.
Thank you for your post, as it allowed me to reflect on my own spending habits and the impact that advertising plays in my daily life.
93, 93/93
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"I think this thread was originally more to ask the question whether other Thelemites see the same patterns (rather than addressing my personal moral dilemma).
Thelemites don't seem to be particularly interested or concerned with ecology from what I've seen (unlike say Wiccans for example). I think a lot of us tend to distance ourselves from "New Agey" subjects. Perhaps I'm mistaken of course, and I'll probably be chastised for generalizing. I'm a Thelemite myself so I'm not pointing fingers I'm just curious to know my brothers' and sisters' thoughts on these issues."BTW-clue me in what 0=2 means????
When I mentioned that I thought the wrong contraction was being used I certainly didn not mean to imply stupidity- it is just in my world I hear alot of this or that, and it seems to be that "people" think you have to exclude, instead of include.
regarding the above quote- when I read it I found myself saying "I do, Me, me....I DO"
But then again I spent many years under the "Wicca" brand.
I am that annoying little lady who cleans up the garbage on the side of the road in spring, who grows food, and tends animals, who shops exclusively at 2nd hand stores, yada yada yada, my whole life it seems revolves around being aware of what I consume, where it comes from, and then IMO the most important question how I process what I consume and dispose of my waste.
I have been called a gorilla gardener, an eco warrior, and even Lorax ( I do speak for the Trees!). My relationship with my environment is the most important relationship I have, and every act no matter how mundane I do from a heart centeredness.
When I watch nature shows, and see the plight of Forests, and animals my heart bleeds and I wish I could do ALOT more. I think though that making sure I am consistantly making the best, healthiest, and harmonious choices for me and my family is hard work enough.
One of the things that I have to constantly remind myself is that the world is made up of all different levels, of mentality, spirituality, awareness.....
the average iq is about 110 last I heard. Most people are not functioning at a level that allows deeper thought, feeling....I got into a bit of a tiff with my older sis the other day in our Tarot class. She doesnt much like AC and the Thoth deck, and started to say some "smack" about how DWTW......excuses behavior, and shirks responsibility.....lets a person abuse and distort...WOW.....I take thoses words to be the opposite, it commands responsibility and breaks patterns of abuse and clarifies the wolrds....
I think that this age we are in commands us to learn to think and feel about our selves, to learn our personal nuanaces and angles. I think that inorder to know thou, one has to play, to consume.....if I never wasted all that paint and paper I would have never know I couldnt paint very well, but that I can sing. If I never used all those tires friving all around NY state, I would have never known I could climb trees and jump into lakes.....
Children HAVE to consume, it is amazing how much they consume, but they are growing and if you dont feed them they get stunted growth. If we are in the Aeon of the Child, it sits well with me that we too need to consume, but that like a toddler scribbling on paper it may take us a while (and patient parents) to learn to use both sides of the paper before we recycle it.
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@Soror KA said
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@modernP said
"93s Veronica.Thanks for your post. 0=2 is a formula for "creation" so to speak. Crowley spoke of it a little. To me it expresses the idea of duality arising from "negative existence". Hehe, I was simply slapping myself at my own stupidity!
93 93/93"
What's 'negative existance'?
Look...I'm serious!!! I want a definition here! No more mystical shilly shally around the edges of what is conveniantly called 'reality'! Where's 'it' at, man?
No... I'm really not serious tho.
"One of the ways I think about it is that +1 is the past (in my memories, a fixed condition for the most part) and -1 is the future (as it hasn't been created yet). In the middle is existence itself, a big 0.
That's a very limited hint as the whole "theory" is much larger than that.
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93,
@Soror KA said
"What's 'negative existance'?
Look...I'm serious!!! I want a definition here! No more mystical shilly shally around the edges of what is conveniantly called 'reality'! Where's 'it' at, man?
No... I'm really not serious tho. "
Negative existence is where this response "was", until interfaced by a particular point-of-view and transferred into the space-time continuum, resulting in it being placed here by some guy typing.
Love is the law, love under will.
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I received the following definition of 0=2 in this short thread;
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The earth has been around for a long time before us. It would destroy us before we could destroy it, and it would probably bounce back to its original form (or something even better). Actually, to think that we could affect such a large ball of dirt in such a profound way is the ultimate in hubris.
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Yes, it's true: if you dig a tunnel and it caves in on you, then after it caves in, the rock likely will go about it's merry way with daffodils growing on top.
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Our combined confront is to considerably decrease our brunt on the local and global surroundings and start on to re-establish our natural resources in a cost-effectively and generally accountable manner.
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The Abby and it's idealized expression in diary of a drug fiend, seem to be ecologically and economically sound self supporting communities off the grid and thus safe from collapse. Also the blue equinox model,is an excellent means to establish the organic state and promote a natural hierarchy and caste system where each Will can finds it's level and everyone find a higher purpose in the group as a whole. These are all compatible with project Venus, and I see many useful ideas adaptable from skinners walden two.
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@modernP said
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It seems as though society as a whole and particularly our Christian-influenced Western society with their strong focus on an afterlife have not stopped to look at the present moment (and the future consequences) of human life itself. The Zeitgeist trilogy of documentaries delves quite deeply into the problem and exposes how consumerism with no thought of consequence is embedded in our monetary system, our economics and our incessant need for material objects to fill the void of a deep dissatisfaction with life. "Talking about our money system... I think you need to watch “Debt based money system" 1-5
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8You can also view “Money as Debt II Promises Unleashed” 1-8
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_doYllBk5NoI hope this addition to the thread does not detract from it.
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The economy based on human need is exactly what Crowley was driving at with the economy of the abby. The theory goes that you remove news papers and sales pitches from peoples reading and have them read classics instead, that way they are not getting their heads filled up with artificial desires for things Thayer don't really need. That is part of knowing your will, is knowing that superfluous possessions are nothing more than a distraction and needless burden. In this way, the society as a whole does not waste time and money on useless things that pollute, create noise, lead to debts, and other ways interfere with individual will. The other side of the coin, is that whatever is actually needed by any individual is made available, some one may share or give away an burdensome object, or the community as a whole knowing that there is mutual benefit in every member being bake to perform the function. Of their will, would work to acquire that needed object or resource that the individual lacks. Ideally no one would have to actually ask or beg for the needed object as ones brothers in the order would recognize that need and offer it as if repaying a debt to you.
In this way there is little need for money in the community, as the mutual aid is secured and frivolous desires are minimized. Unlike in our consumer culture based not on human need but mass production for profit, where every means is used to stir the passions and fears to foster greed and lust for things ultimately unsatisfying, just to drive the profits, and to keep us all slaves to debt. This is exactly contrary to your true will, which is drilling the passions to discover what is truly fulfilling to you, while the media culture only wants to stir up a cloud of passions and muddle your mind so your true will is lost in a noose sea of distracting whims.
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Sustainability is important because all the choices we pursue and all the actions that we make today will affect everything in the future. We need to make sound decisions at present in order to avoid limiting the choices of generations to come.
[www.morrisonhershfield.com/sustainability/Pages/default.aspx:hvfn63fi]](http://www.morrisonhershfield.com/sustainability/Pages/default.aspx:hvfn63fi)
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93,
Just to make it clear, I haven't read the other posts, so I'm sorry if I'm interrupting anything.
- Do you think an "apocalypse" of sorts is headed our way?
If I think rationally, I don't think so. At least, not one of those "the planet will blow up!" things, that is. The planet is billions years old, people have lived on it for millions of years. Why would it suddenly end? Why would it happen in OUR period? Of course there are countless of theories, but really, there have been for decades.
The only apocalypse I'm worried about is a human one. We're becoming individualistic, self-centered, greedy, needy and cruel. Nobody cares for their fellow human beings anymore, or for nature, or for culture, or for all of those things that make the world beautiful and bearable. There is war over stupid things, there's riots over poverty. Every time I take another walk, a part of me dies, because nature is being heartlessly demolished for new houses (I guess it must be my Taurus side, in touch with nature so deeply) and nobody I whine about it to seems to know what I'm talking about.
- Do you think it is even viable to counter this by promoting ecological awareness, the reform of rampant consumerism or is it a case of "too little too late"? Do we try to live in harmony with the natural laws of the planet or do we support the coming destruction.
How have we grown so arrogant as to think we can stop the forces of Mother Nature by selling people 'green' products? Honestly?
Those were my two cents.
93, 93/93
- Do you think an "apocalypse" of sorts is headed our way?
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i read all the posts to find out what others think about the zeitgeist movement. all i'm gonna say is, i don't like it. it's half truths blended with propaganda and misses an important aspect of story telling. it lacks a certain kind of magic it purports to have, in my opinion, of course.
sustainability is where it's at. it's fun to do. an elder recently told me though, he doesn't think focusing on the ecology is where it's at. all you have to do is love your mother. so then i thought, being he's an indian, he is speaking about mother earth and taking care of her. but he wasn't. it made me wonder lots of things. especially since i was an enviro. major (sustainable communities). i wonder if everyone loves their mother. i wonder if there is any aspect that this particular message (a lot of tribes talk of this as a part of prophecy) has value in relationship to mother earth and her ability to tend to her children? shrug
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Wine, song, food, fire, clothes, shelter and seed. No mourning for the old empire when the indigo children come: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kntk-APTfg
By the lead singer of tool. Is a member of a TOTO offshoot lodge. Lives in the hills of Arizona which he's jokingly referred to as future beach property. This song gets at the idea of a future where an electromagnetic pulse is emitted from the sun and destroys our digital world.
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@anistara said
"sustainability is where it's at. it's fun to do. an elder recently told me though, he doesn't think focusing on the ecology is where it's at. all you have to do is love your mother. so then i thought, being he's an indian, he is speaking about mother earth and taking care of her. but he wasn't. it made me wonder lots of things. especially since i was an enviro. major (sustainable communities). i wonder if everyone loves their mother. i wonder if there is any aspect that this particular message (a lot of tribes talk of this as a part of prophecy) has value in relationship to mother earth and her ability to tend to her children? shrug"
This made me think of an event that many young men experience, effectively changing them from titans into lovers. If you spend enough time among young people you can see this clearly in their early and mid teens. It's that moment when they fall in love and are 'softened' by this experience. Finally, they relate and identify with another person, and caring for that person stop being so concerned only with themselves. Before that happens they are grossly immature beings, selfish, heedless, cruel...
Love and Will
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@fool said
"Wine, song, food, fire, clothes, shelter and seed. No mourning for the old empire when the indigo children come: www.youtube.com/watch?v=1kntk-APTfg
By the lead singer of tool. Is a member of a TOTO offshoot lodge. Lives in the hills of Arizona which he's jokingly referred to as future beach property. This song gets at the idea of a future where an electromagnetic pulse is emitted from the sun and destroys our digital world."
lives in jerome, near sedona and hopiland. caduceus cellars in-between. i like tool a lot, unsure if maynard is actually a thelemite due to the new age-ness of some lyrics. the sedona new age gets infiltrated into their music being that it's 5 miles down the road. i am opinionated (admitting).
hangar 18, i know too much (megadeth).
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@Dar said
"What do people think of the idea of a dual run 'Gift Economy' with a 'Resource Dollar Economy'?
i.e. - as proposed by the Science writer Kim Stanley Robinson in the 'Mars' trilogy?
Or how about the model of democratic business - as proposed by Ian Banks in the novel 'The Business'?"
all for the gift economy. in my culture we have the potlatch. it's an amazing thing to experience. it was banned in the 50's (the ban has been lifted fairly recently so we potlatch again) because it wasn't taxable. heathens...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potlatch
it works though. no one left behind. *it's also a society built on hierarchy, status positions and secret societies. theres a trick in how it is maintained and has for thousands of years. no one gripes about the top people, aka chief famlies because they do well to take care of everyone-- we just have the most copper shields and bragging rights.<< an important element!