Hercules vs Dionysys
-
in 'defense' of the herculean:
he portrays a figure who by his own strenght, courage and labor made the bridge between the animal and divine.
the quest for atonement begins after a murder - an act of insanity, madness, and lower self, from our human moral perspective - and his story tells us that there is a path out of that horrific deed, there is a path out of our karmic bonds, that there is a road to atonement!
even the worst, lowest, ugliest in us can be transformed, transmuted into gold!in herculean myth, we see that that path is towards the Sun and 'through' the Sun - that's the symbolic essence of his story.
as I see it, his main characterisics are three: strenght, persistance and above all: aspiration to reach the end of the journey. and that's what we can learn from him.
-
@RobertAllen said
"Atlas, I know you probably didn't intend this slight, but there was still a sense from your comment that the Greeks had no real genius of their own, but only mauled Egyptian traditions and religious insights"
No, the Greeks definitely had genius, but I tend to priviledge the Egyptian archetypes over the Greek ones because of the fact that the Greek writers borrowed, changed or misunderstood a lot of the Egypt ones.
To take one example: in Egypt, the Great Sphinx of Giza has a male head, lion's body and serenely faces east, representing dominion from horizon to horizon (i.e. Egyptian civilization had knowledge of the soul's descent into the Amduat and resurrection, represented by the solar cycle). By the time the sphinx archetype reaches Greek legends, it has a cats body and female head, is rather capricious and terrifying, but not too clever. This not too cleverness signifies something getting lost in translation. It has a standard riddle that it asks of every passerby, and responds by strangling those who do not answer correctly. The riddle of what walks on four feet in the morning, two feet at noon and three feet at evening, is a mangled and distorted version of the knowledge held by the Great Sphinx of Giza - representing only one half of the full meaning - where the journey of the soul is linked to the path of the sun. When Oedipus solves the riddle, the Greek sphinx reacts by throwing itself off a high rock.
Now according to some scholars, Oedipus' solving the riddle of the Greek sphinx symbolized a transition in Greece between the influence of the older Egypt and emerging Greek civilization, where the human-like Olympian gods begin to gain prominence. If the Greek sphinx symbolizes a transition, this might explain why modern European architects like to place them as guardians to entrances of cities, doorways, paths leading into important areas or in front of libraries. Alternatively, the Greek sphinx could represent a vestigial remnant as guardian of far older Egyptian knowledge.
But I won't deny that I draw inspiration from both Greek and Egyptian mythology.
-
Its also worth noting the Assyrian and Babylonian sphinxes that guard the entrances to cities, often bearing the bearded face of a ruler and having a lion's body with wings, such as can be found in the Pergamon Museum in Berlin. I have gazed on them at length, noting the references to magical enscriptions of their bodies and alleged function to protect the ruler of the city. As I understand them, their essential signification is this:
Only the righteous shall pass these gates.
-
@he atlas itch said
"
No, the Greeks definitely had genius, but I tend to priviledge the Egyptian archetypes over the Greek ones because of the fact that the Greek writers borrowed, changed or misunderstood a lot of the Egypt ones. "I value the Egyptian images and gods above the Greek for magical work. In terms of archetypes, I'm not sure how that works for me because the Archetypal tradition—Jung and Hillman—don't make much of the Egyptians. Though, they do make an appearance—I'm thinking about the Golden Scarab synchronicity from Jung's autobiography. I would have simply assumed the appearance of Egyptian images in dreams and in active imagination work would only indicate an older strata of the mind, not necessarily higher or lower, or better or worse.
As far as the Greeks getting the Egyptians wrong, that obvious. They were Greeks, and pretty much in the same relationship with the Egyptians as ourselves, except they could actually talk to the living heirs of the later day Egyptian religions. So I pretty much agree in a limited sense. Where I take issue is that it's possible to look at everything the Greeks asserted about the Egyptians as more of a reflection on themselves, than as a true and accurate account of Egyptian customs and beliefs.
Love and Will
-
@Edward Mason said
"That's an interesting test! I'd have to switch sexual orientation (or at least become an ancient Spartan in my leanings) to consider my feelings on screwing Dubya, but a het-male equivalent (and this would get the Spartan okay, too) might be considering whether I'd want to be beside this person in a dangerous or combat situation. Does he have the backbone to stick it out, come what may? Or will be cite security concerns and disappear in a government helicopter while the Persian army surrounds the rest of us?"
After being "bottoms" for so long to GW's policies, it was nice to consider being "tops" for once. Thank you for the imagery.
Now, Obama...I'll have to ponder that one for a few minutes (maybe 10-15).
Sorry. I couldn't resist.
Love this thread, btw.
-
@danica said
"in 'defense' of the herculean:
he portrays a figure who by his own strenght, courage and labor made the bridge between the animal and divine.
the quest for atonement begins after a murder - an act of insanity, madness, and lower self, from our human moral perspective - and his story tells us that there is a path out of that horrific deed, there is a path out of our karmic bonds, that there is a road to atonement!
even the worst, lowest, ugliest in us can be transformed, transmuted into gold!in herculean myth, we see that that path is towards the Sun and 'through' the Sun - that's the symbolic essence of his story.
as I see it, his main characterisics are three: strenght, persistance and above all: aspiration to reach the end of the journey. and that's what we can learn from him."
I like this. It has me thinking more about the various ways an archetype like this can manifest in peoples lives. For example, considering the recent references to Bush, it could be argued the Herculean took the form of posturing—"look at my big muscles, err, I mean my swagger." Contrast this with the post presidential years of Jimmy Carter and his work with Habitat for Humanity.
Love and Will
-
Re: my last post, but thinking about Dionysus now...
I remember staying with some friends in New York City, who were in the habit of offering their couches, and floors to visiting friends. Also staying at the apartment was an attractive young woman, a friend of my friends.
One night we all went out to dinner in the East Village—an Indian restaurant we liked on 8th Street. As we walked from the subway, the young woman left the group to talk with some young men, obviously living on the street. I came to learn afterwards that she was meeting a specific person, and talking with her about her interests and passions later, I came to understand that she had previously, briefly, met this one young man who was in fact homeless, and a heroin addict, and she was looking for and found him again. And she had fallen in love with him! Which always struck me as singular and exceptional in itself because there was plenty to make this young man undesirable.
It was irrational. But I realized later that the magnetic quality that the Dionysus archetype afforded him also helped him to survive by capturing the hearts and imaginations of women just like my friends friend.
Love and Will
-
This has been very interesting,
Is it that Hercules feels that he has acted out of accordance with natural laws, murdering his family, that he feels inadequate, and has to seek the approval of some one who is not of himself......seems to me very Christian,Hebrew,Islamic. Salvationists thinking....Which is why I don't like him, and would not find anything he did valid.
While Dionysus doesn't seek out others approval, and does what he is led to do,......in accordance with his nature...
And so if he manifests as a skinny depraved junkie he is so much more attractive.
Hum,
I wonder if this is what is implied in the thought
That their is no accounting for taste -
@Veronica said
"While Dionysus doesn't seek out others approval, and does what he is led to do,......in accordance with his nature...
And so if he manifests as a skinny depraved junkie he is so much more attractive.
"You've outed yourself as a Meanad!
Love and Will
-
I wish there was a LIKE option, like on fb... I don't have what to add to the thread, but i did enjoy reading it, i find it based on a proper research, well thought through and well written also. Thank you for that.
-
@RobertAllen said
"
@Veronica said
"While Dionysus doesn't seek out others approval, and does what he is led to do,......in accordance with his nature...And so if he manifests as a skinny depraved junkie he is so much more attractive.
"You've outed yourself as a Meanad!
Love and Will"
Was there ever a doubt??
Honestly......
And I know if I really tried the naughty girl in me would easily find something redeemable in just about any.....