How do you tell people you're a Thelemite?
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I used to keep quiet about my practice and simply tell people that I was a Pagan or something else that they would understand; I stopped doing that however because I found that it simply confused the issue, I don't generally go about telling people unless they ask, but if they do I simply tell them "I'm a Thelemite".
I have a friend who is a more or less hard-core atheist of the Dawkins persuasion (who is also a repressed Christian, the poor girl) I think she actually secretly thinks that what I do is crazy, or evil, or both, depending on her mood, yet having known me for nearly 20 years now, she knows that I am not evil or crazy, which really causes a clash between what she thinks is true and what reality presents to her.
Also my Mother is a Roman Catholic who thinks that Aleister Crowley is the root of all evil; she has always known about my interest in the occult, but my Brother inadvertently told her that I was in the OTO, (She doesn't know any more than that, and I have no mind to tell her either) and she in turn told my grandfather, who is a lovely man but an old-school Freemason; so most of my family and friends outside those who are also Thelmites think I'm a little unhinged, which again confuses them because they also know that I am an intelligent and rational person. Again there is a lot of confusion between what people have read or heard and what the reality turns out to be.
Also, I recently took the step of putting my religious status on my facebook page, so people can make of it what they Will.
Basically "Love me, love my dog".
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Very interesting discussion, thanks for starting it!
a digression , feel free to skip:
Jim, outside US and Western Europe - people are not really PC... and they do ask "what's your religion." Where i am from (SE Europe) - most remain in what they are born into, and there is differentiation from the very beginning;
"they" choose certain names and bear certain surnames, and "us" too - which, of course, is one of the factors contributing to "they" versus "us" mentality for which Balkan is notorious.
During school year i am in Russia and there its highly antisemitic ; last summer an idiot who teaches at the uni where i enrolled the phd studies - did ask me quite openly what was my "nationality" (as that's how it goes in Russia still) , and did tell me face to face all the prejudices they personally have against my "nationality".
Everyone in administration told me not to bother and that i could not complain against them for discrimination, harassment or anything (i mean - i could, but it would not achieve any effect they said, except making the situation worse ) and the only option was for me to write a statement that "for personal motives " i want to pass the examination in front of a committee, and not with the above mentioned a**le.
And, of course, they make it difficult then, but i opted for that and i passed with the highest mark, which for a foreigner in the given filed is unheard of... and which still makes me and everyone mine quite proud, as ridiculous as it might sound to some. This is just to make it more obvious what the situation is elswhere, outside the so-called "free world."As per Thelema - most of my own friends are liberal intellectuals, so they are actually quite interested in learning about it... Now, given that its work - reading, practicing etc., and given that most are tad too lazy to give it a serious time to explore - yet are fascinated with Crowley - i have a fertile ground , so to say, to share whatever little i learn and know by now.
With bigots... i personally wouldn't bother, no need to waste time i believe. Or - you can just say "Thelema" - if you are not obliged to give them any explanations and don't need their understanding for anything - let them find out for themselves what is it, if they are really interested. (Normally they are just being judgmental - and i don't have time/motive to enter with an uneducated person into discussions of what's magick, was Crowley a satanist etc.
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@magictortoise said
"Jim, outside US and Western Europe - people are not really PC... and they do ask "what's your religion.""
LOL, that's not really a question arising out of tolerance - quite the opposite. Overly-PC people aren't likely to broach the subject at all. The above question usually translates to, "Being intensely committed to my own religion, could you please confirm whether or not you're some sort of evil heathen?"
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@magictortoise said
" The above question usually translates to, "Being intensely committed to my own religion, could you please confirm whether or not you're some sort of evil heathen?""
"Oy.
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Dar, isn't Thelema recognized as religion in UK?
I lived in London, was with UK Kabbalah Center for years - and that also gets those looks from all sides... But Brits in my experience are polite - so what they think to themselves, as long as they are civil towards me and are not openly discriminating... honestly, i am too spent in that department to care who approves what i do, who doesn't and for what motives.
No, no - not offended - just surprised... sometimes you get to wonder which of the two is worse - open enmity based merely on prejudice, or the hypocritical PC... i mean in terms of its effect on the individual - of course that in everyday life certain political correctness is needed, even if faked.
My own thesis is on tolerance (religious among else), so you can imagine that the topic is of the utmost interest to me. Truth to be told - most of the people, me included - are biased and prejudiced against certain believes and practices, or even national minorities; whether we admit it or not. Also, we don't have that much time or interest to explore what they are deeply down about - and the human survival is actually based on quickest possible differentiating between friends and foe... Now, in my view, the real question is how to make all this pre-existing social conditioning as bearable as possible for everyone included... while , hopefully working on its (individual and collective) betterment.
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@hisguy said
"When you're talking to someone who's never heard of Thelema or Crowley, and the subject comes up, how do you put it in a nutshell?"
I don't.
"Seems like a simple question, but I'm never sure what to say!"
Say nothing. "Loose lips sink ships."
If somebody is really that persisent, I tell them I'm a votary of "Scientific Illuminism." The few that comprehend what that means usually don't pursue the question further.
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@hisguy said
"When you're talking to someone who's never heard of Thelema or Crowley, and the subject comes up, how do you put it in a nutshell?
Like maybe you're on a first date and want to give a quick answer. Or you say you're busy tomorrow afternoon and someone asks why and the answer is that you're going to a Gnostic Mass and they don't know what that is. You know... a basic answer.
Seems like a simple question, but I'm never sure what to say!"
Thisguy, i am sorry, i think i hijacked your thread.
Would you be comfortable with saying that you are into Christian Qabala? I am not saying that's what Thelema is - just thinking of how could you put it for the start...
As Jim puts it - its always wise to look for inter-lapping segments - if your date is Christian, maybe you could "amplify" it by referring to Judeo-Christian tradition?
Whereas, if your date is fairly young, from a traditional household of any of the three Abrahamic religions, if their folks are set in their ways... there is not way around it, except being secretive about what you do - and that's exactly how many got ahead... But then, why would you date someone like that?
The thing is - if they are open and come from a relatively liberal background - more so if they are interested in you, they'll make the effort, and then we'll most probably have another member at the forum here, otherwise... i view it as pretty much pointless.
(Just to say - we are no different from people who have to explain themselves due to other reasons, health -related , previous life choices or whatsoever, its a part of human experience, unless one is an absolute, metaphorically speaking, sheep who has never left their native flock.)eta for typos
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Thanks for the reply, Dar!
@Dar said
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It really doesn't take much to get yourself recognised as an official religion in the UK, Ruth. "The thing is that you then have all the rights - and must not be discriminated against according to UK legislation... which of course, does not take away the looks.
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There's so much contained in those 'looks' isn't there?Or is there? How much is projection filling in the blanks and providing a false picture of the cultural milieu surrounding you? "
It depends... i guess that in "normal" times, in "normal" surroundings - very little, and they are actually more indicating the surprise then anything else... in Balkans, with our four (whether we admit it or not) ethnic wars only in ten years, that's leaving behind all of the more ancient history filled with blood - for the majority, especially those not distinguished by education or young age - its very different, trust me on that one.
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Actually - your first paragraph goes against everything that I endorsed in the field of advertising! Honest advertising is always better than fake promises (it sells more).
"For my own people, to whom i relate, in terms of preserving our culture, system of believes and everything else- throughout history - open hostility turned out to be better indeed. (Of course, i am not referring to violence.)
But that discussion would wander way of topic , i am afraid, and also way off the theme of this forum - the above is just to point that i see where you come from and agree in some points." If people don't feel like being politically correct then I suggest they don't bother. The real question to be asked of anyone that's racially or religiously or ideologically abusing another is 'What's the anger really all about'? Sometimes the question of how permissive society is towards cultural scapegoating may need to be asked - and those human rights questions have a pretty broad broad discussion base, as I'm sure you're aware.
"Mine is not about extremes as in scapegoating... more about an inborn* profilizing* - which we all do.
i can only give you an example from personal experience. I am all for minorities rights - not only because myself i belong to the minority... I advocate Roma rights - openly and somewhat aggressively even.
A Roma family turned out at my door one day - its a long story, but basically i have state licence for a certain legal service they needed - and they somehow found out where i live.
I did the service for them, didn't charge for it (and that service costs a lot)... but i didn't let them enter my home, which i might have done, haven't they looked quite specifically - like people who live in refugee camps and mostly survive on *shady businesses *such as begging etc.
Now, on theory - i support their rights. I volunteered many times in those camps (which are downright nasty and disgusting) , i support them publicly... Did i let them into my house? No.
That made me aware of how full of sh!t my own little self is. Those people could be angels. Biblical Abraham acted differently (the "episode" of the two disguised angels walking by after his circumcision in advanced age.)
I am not an all that big soul, just a flawed human being, like everyone else - sincerely trying to do my best to the maximum of my own capabilities and limitations.As per distinguishing between friend and foe... that's inborn, whether we realize it or not. Even if in our generation its fairly diminished, the thing is that we wouldn't be around, weren't our grand-grand-grand parents capable of sorting out quickly who is who... its from numerous scientific researches, not something i came up with .
More (quite concise, yet informative) here: Test Yourself for Hidden Bias
www.tolerance.org/activity/test-yourself-hidden-bia -
@Dar said
"Test results:
"Your Implicit Preference Scale
There were too many fast trials to determine a result."
"
(I wanted to insert 
smiley, but there isn't one... ) -
@Dar said
" I'm a middle aged woman - turned 40 this year - and I'm prejudiced against myself!
"I am sorry to disappoint you, but 40ies are the new 20ies (do not believe what the insurance agents tell you
) ; and for what i know you look like a model (or are one), so i guess we need to come up with a brand -new test - what are the false premises on which you are biased against yourself AND how to get read of those. -
My life has historically been good - but NEVER so good as post-50.
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@Jim Eshelman said
"My life has historically been good - but NEVER so good as post-50."
It really feels liberating to be on this forum! I can't think of any other community where one would (could/dared to) say "my life has historically been good", without adding pages long rant on how difficult it was to arrive to that point, how all was against them - and with couple of more heart-breaking messages to whom general public can relate - included.
I don't usually go on about religions i don't belong to, but the thing which i observe where i am (dominant Christian Orthodoxy) is that due to social conditioning, at least couple of elements of suffering must be included into anything stated publicly, unless of course you are working on some anti-campaign for yourself, which folks appearing in media are usually not after.
In countries where Protestantism is dominant you have to include hard work elements... yes, my life is good, but if you only knew how hard i've been working on it...
Well, i educated myself in the Eastern thought initially, so if you are working that hard... well, you aren't too smart, or you are pushing against the currents... which is not smart either (or both.)
My own life has been very good (thanks goodness for that), except in the domain of thought and emotion where i went through all the possible turmoils... but then i wouldn't want it any other way, as i'd have nothing to write about.
The thing is that there is no such thing as 'free lunch' , in my deepest believe, so everyone who has it good - has earned it, this way or another... that takes some philosophy and some tolerance to understand, so i also, as Mephisto puts it "say nothing", as otherwise i must fit it into other's victim mentality frame of mind (and that bores me. ) -
Thanks for all the replies!
To clarify: my Gnostic Mass example is a real one.
Friend: What are you up to tomorrow afternoon?
Me: I'm going to a Gnostic Mass.
Friend: What's that?
Me:And this is where I get confused. I don't know how to give a brief, casual answer that makes sense to someone who lacks a frame of reference for this. A long, in-depth answer wouldn't be appropriate for the situation. If I say "it's a Thelemic ceremony", that sounds like gibberish. And so on... you get the idea.
I hope I don't sound like I'm too hung up on labels or summaries. I know what all of this means to ME, but I just don't know how to put it into a casual conversation.
Thanks!
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"It's a mass. You know, a religious ceremony."
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Sadly, the people in my surroundings (especially at work, I'm a cleaning lady, not many of my colleagues are hugely intelligent) are a tad on the narrow-minded side. I too wear the unicursal hexagram and last week they told me "LOL YOU'RE WEARING A JEW STAR" (how it looks like the Star of David is still a mystery to me) and that's the point where I really don't even feel the need to explain my beliefs to them. Even my closest friends think I've gone mad because 1) not being an atheist means you're a loon these days 2) the hexagram looks like a pentagram which must mean I sacrifice small children and dance around naked in the forest.
To be honest, only one friend has bothered to listen to my explanation about Thelema and she understood how I was feeling because she too is a believer (Protestant).
Usually I shortly say "We believe in True Will and try to find it through various processes like meditation and yoga and etc,."
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@Elmida said
"Sadly, the people in my surroundings (especially at work, I'm a cleaning lady, not many of my colleagues are hugely intelligent) are a tad on the narrow-minded side. I too wear the unicursal hexagram and last week they told me "LOL YOU'RE WEARING A JEW STAR" (how it looks like the Star of David is still a mystery to me) and that's the point where I really don't even feel the need to explain my beliefs to them. Even my closest friends think I've gone mad because 1) not being an atheist means you're a loon these days 2) the hexagram looks like a pentagram which must mean I sacrifice small children and dance around naked in the forest.
To be honest, only one friend has bothered to listen to my explanation about Thelema and she understood how I was feeling because she too is a believer (Protestant).
Usually I shortly say "We believe in True Will and try to find it through various processes like meditation and yoga and etc,.""
Yes. That's all very much as it is for me too. I guess "live with it" is all the advice I can give you.
They even call my various septagrams "Jewish star." lolAs for True Will, I sometimes resort to explaining it among the more Christian types like this: You know how in the Lords Prayer it says "thy will be done?" That means to the Christian that he/she is not meant to be selfishly praying but seeking desperately to live according to the Will of God. If your will and God's Will become one, such as in "thy will (not mine) be done," then there is only One Will - and this is my definition of True Will.
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Just to make this even more convoluted:
I've found that the simplest answer I can give is that it's my religion. People who have never heard of Thelema still know what a religion is, so that's a simple frame of reference, and the details don't matter unless they're curious and want to go in-depth. It's like if I said I'm a Hindu: people at least know what category that goes in.
But the problem with that answer is, I think "religion" has a lot of connotations for people that aren't necessarily true, and that are derived from Judeo-Christianity (i.e. belief in a Supreme Being). So even if it would be accurate to say "it's my religion", it would create even more confusion and require even more explanation. I think.
Any thoughts? I feel like there has to be a simplistic catch-all answer for casual chit-chatty purposes... but maybe there isn't.
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@hisguy said
"Just to make this even more convoluted:
I've found that the simplest answer I can give is that it's my religion. People who have never heard of Thelema still know what a religion is, so that's a simple frame of reference, and the details don't matter unless they're curious and want to go in-depth. It's like if I said I'm a Hindu: people at least know what category that goes in.
But the problem with that answer is, I think "religion" has a lot of connotations for people that aren't necessarily true, and that are derived from Judeo-Christianity (i.e. belief in a Supreme Being). So even if it would be accurate to say "it's my religion", it would create even more confusion and require even more explanation. I think.
Any thoughts? I feel like there has to be a simplistic catch-all answer for casual chit-chatty purposes... but maybe there isn't."
I believe in and practice magick. This is not hocuspocus Harry Potter poof there's my perfect car magick. This is creating an inner alignment within myself and the immediate universe around me until such time as I find myself saying "poof, there's my perfect car."
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You should hear me try to describe Thelema to my wife. She's fine with tarot and she's skeptical of astrology, but warming. But Aliester Crowley??? lol...
I hate this. I always feel most inspired to write when I have the most menial of responsibilities pressing. It's more than escapism. It's some weird thing... But I'm sure you are all healthily skeptical... lol... Whatever. I really wish I could fix that though. Anyway... I digress.
For my wife, religion changed when she was put on a morphine drip to have a tumor removed in early college. She's from a strong Catholic family, but for some reason, after experiencing that altered state, she just never could get sufficiently worried about religion anymore. She just related to it differently. She's a natural born Will/Love person though Thelema turns her nose.
I was saying, yes, we... people in our generation... people these days... for whatever reason, find themselves relating to religious others as if they understood Christ, as if they understood Buddha, while these religious others are lost in superstition. In the Bhagavad Gita, it says something to the effect of "the person who sees the truth first hand has no need for Scriptures." And while I'm not saying a morphine drip will show you the Truth, like any other drug, exposure to altered consciousness just ...if nothing else, it exposes you to new kinds of thinking, new experiences of self. (I didn't have to explain all this to her.)
So, continuing, I said, there was once a mystic who asked, "Once I experience religion more like a Christ, what does my religion become?" That really got her attention. "And the answer was simply to learn to see himself as a Self whose job it was to learn to love everything else as Lover. And all of it is Divine. And so all the stories become Divine stories."
She was excited. "Who said that?"
"Aliester Crowley." I laughed helplessly. "But he was an explorer, and he explored sex and poop too, so... some of it's ugly."
"I don't care that he was an explorer. I care that he treated people poorly - that his relationships don't show evidence that he was on to something good."
"That's what happens when you go too fast."
Now, short of ordering large quantities of books and demanding that we read them to understand the spiritual nuances and complexities of his Scarlet Women relationships, among others... lol... that's where we stand. And probably, many more of us...
Perhaps we are meant to be few and secret instead...?
Gentleman, Ladies, it really is quite a lot to comprehend.
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Sometimes you have to leave Crowley out of the picture - especially in talking to somebody who has an established prejudice against him.
As I said at the beginning: Talk about yourself, instead. What you believe, hold to, find useful, etc. Talk about the principles you embrace - this is a communication about YOU, not some dead Edwardian.
One doesn't even have to say where it comes from if you don't want to - and it's a good exercise, because it requires that you be clear on (or clarify) exactly how you relate to principles - and what's really important to you in the whole thing - rather than just buying into the labels.
Instead of "Thelema teaches," or "Crowley said," start the topic with, "The point of view on life most important to me is," or "I believe," or "It seems to me..." Etc. Eventually you can say say, "So, when I found this philosophy called Thelema, it was already saying all these things I believe. It's amazing!"
Or something like that.