Is anyone of you a manic depressive?
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Good post, Mr. Mason. Are we to cultivate the ability to experience more powerful moods and wilder swings from a detached 3rd person perspective, with the aid of 2nd person agency? I've heard that intense and oscillating emotions can 'pump' one's energetic channels. Is it just a matter of how that energy is directed?
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Actually I am incredibly manic depressive at time. I go ok for long periods of time but every now & then, say 6-8 months I will have a period of a month or two where I swing back and forth but not instantly, the depressions linger and the manic states are intense but short lived. The rest of the time I am kinda just happy
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"The next time you see some black brothers, look into their eyes...."
I'll take note of that.
There are a great many interesting ideas in your post, but I'd like to mention one or two things:
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Magick functions in the same way as science. Claims aren't simply made, they must be proven, tested, and approved. This isn't to quash the sense of individualism, but without a basis by which to classify knowledge, humanity would be awash in conflicting ideologies and symbolisms. Oh. Wait. It already is.
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Second point. The method by which we being are to overcome this conflict is by unification. Unification of what? Of peoples, countries, religions, cultures? Of mind. Without coherance, the manifestation of thought is moot, useless, without purpose.
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Point the third: what separates those who are manic-depressive and, say, Jesus, is this: Jesus unified his ideas into a coherant system, which he proved (for better or worse) by example and application. The same applies for the Buddha, for Crowley, or any other saint one wishes to mention: despite their innate madness, they retained an ability to relate said insanity to the rest of their kind. It is this that separates madness from genius.
That being said, I think you have many interesting ideas, from a pathological standpoint.
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Manic depressive? Yes. You could certainly express what I go through as this, though it's more Mania than at is depression. It's a sort of Indigo hypersensitivity to my enviroment and conditions, which tends to lead to depression because I'm 17 years old and choked in the suburbs of the dead and still dying Detroit, and the larger macrocosm: human society, which isn't quite dead yet, but it's getting there.
I could land you with a novel of astrological causes for my paradoxical psyche, coupled with the stories of an endlessly turbulent adolescence, but it'd all be belittled as angst and other irrationalities. You have no idea what it's like being the result of so many damned incarnations, here at the apex of all things. Pressure. Chaos. Tension and madness like you couldn't imagine. Swinging wildly from memory to memory, conclusion to conclusion, paradigm to paradigm, hoping for ground to stand on but only being served with more Chaos. There are moments of light, yes. Every new level of attainment brings with it pretty lights and syncronicity up the wa-hoo, but also the responsibility for the understanding and the ever-so-sensitive balance point that is constantly pushed.
What am I supposed to do when I find myself catapaulted into a world where no one can define reality and everyone is either afraid of the vulnerability that addressing this involves, or is simply too ignorant to recognize it? As if I have no personality of my own, I reflect the Chaos I percieve. Those who get close enough to me are only repulsed by the confusion it produces. I find a place for myself in occultism, and am welcomed by the Universe with open arms and subtle encouragements increasing my momentum, but even here, I am restricted to isolation simply because of my age.
A lot of what you said makes sense to me as well as aligns with my experiences as a lover and aspirant. We speak of emotion, the lunar world of feel, no amount of cerebral reduction would relate to what was said here. Only direct experience of what The Lover speaks of initiates you into empathy with its content. That is, of course, if I'm not just some manic depressive teenager going on a nonsensical rant about the paradox of his existance.
93 93/93(11)
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"I can relate quite a bit to that.
Not to all of it, of course, but I've walked some similar wastes.
I can tell you that this is what I wish someone would have said to me:
I'm not scared to talk about it, but there's rules. If you start screaming at me like I'm the only Other in the Universe besides you, we're probably gonna be done pretty quick. It can get weird and potentially violent. Save that for mystical experiences, poetry, or the loony-bin. This incarnation is Lance.
That the kind of real you're looking for?
It's the kind of real I was looking for."
I sat on that bit of wisdom for a couple days, digested it, to make sure my response wasn't from the part of me that wants to keep shouting but from the part that wants to improve.
First of all, I want to apologize for the anger and resentment present in my post. This forum is no place for wild venting. The Lover's writing seems to have hit a spot in me that triggered quite the deluge of pent-up frustration, so I lashed out. Obvious, I'm sure.
The thing with Mania is that it blurrs the lines between.. uh.. everything. Existance is a mystical experience, human interaction is poetry, modern society is the loony bin, in the eyes of someone who has experienced them all in the way I do. The bottom line is that I'm a kid who grew up way too quickly not to be pushed to such extremes of perception and is consistantly skewed by it.
The occult has been helping me to understand myself and these concepts much better, but it leads to me channeling it rather than controlling it; actually amplifying the Chaos it produces, while constantly reassuring me it's the right thing with spiderwebs of synchronicity and attainment in ways no one my age should have gotten to.
Things are just weird. It gets to be too much. The opportunity to talk about my world to someone with ears to hear me does not cross me often, so thank you for the response and stern advice. I'll keep that in mind when I find myself slipping back into irrational lashing.
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@Aegis said
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I submit my suggestions to communal critique."I agree with Dar that its a great advise - and it can be applied to anyone who is into exploring various planes of existance (adding this because most of my life i belonged to other paths, using other terminology - and yet i wish someone had given me this advise when i started. )
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I'm not sure I want people will mental health issues involved in magick. There are two main reason for this. I'm sorry if this offends people who feel magick should not be elitist.
FIRST REASON MAGICK SHOULD BE FOR THOSE OF SOUND MIND
Magick frequently involves interaction with ontological (entity filled) worlds which most people do not witness. The regular shifting of consciousness to these places where stuff may be going on is going to put a stain on the the body/mind and shift a mind to a state that may appear slightly mad. If a person is already having mental issues these combining these with further seemingly insane activities could make a person unemployable and as such, unable to look after themselves.
SECOND REASON MAGICK SHOULD BE EXCLUSIVELY FOR THOSE OF SOUND MIND
I do magick. I'm completely sane. I find it hard to explain to people that I get experiences from magick that make me trust in those practices enough to continue to practice them. I find it hard to explain that I believe the universe and its deities should be explored as an astronaut should explore the skies
. With expectations yet a scientific method.I think that my motivations are laudable. However when I want to explain to someone that I practice the Magick of the O.T.O, the A.A. and the Golden Dawn, the last thing I want them to think is "I remember a person with some serious psychological problems who was doing that kind of stuff too."
I already have issues with a certain someone who thinks of me as a wiccan worshiping the tooth fairy and Santa Clause by their olde fashion names.There is a huge magickal community and its seriously getting bigger represent us well otherwise as soon as someone finds out information about someones magickal path they won't respect them as much or give them the same opportunities in life and then we really will see an elitist society and we certainly won't be the elite.
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I guess it's not fair to only be sarcastic.
The "Aeon" is here. Human's are evolving - opening to new levels of consciousness. At first, this will be seen as madness by those who do not understand it.
I, for one, feel something of the urge to throw a lifeline to those strong enough to save themselves if someone would just for a moment accept that something of their experience is real and part of a process they need to complete.
I realize that Liber Legis warns against turning aside from Will to the weak, but if it has anything to do with my Will, then Will desires for humanity to be guided into its wholeness and for the waking potential of those initially mislabelled "mad" and "weak" to be fully realized. That's not turning aside from Will for me. There is simply nothing else as challenging or interesting.
That's my general take on the topic, but, yeah, I'd agree about serious magical workings - at least until a set period of stability is demonstrated. And I don't think you'd find any disagreement from people who actually accept at least a part of their diagnosis. If they're willing to do that, then they've had at least one experience where they lost control, and they realize something of that. Survival fear takes care of the rest. For me anyway...
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@Aegis said
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"Prophet of the New Aeon." Talk about megalomania, delusions of grandeur
"It is really a matter of perspective Crowley spoke in riddles and often meant things which are different to what you believe he said. a popular example is the "I sacrifice 100 children a year"
You say that he's deluded in his claim to be the prophet of the new Aeon. Well most new agers, wiccans and occultists know who he is and don't realize that Gardiner was in the OTO and Crowley took him up a degree or two as an initiator. Without Gardiner being in the place he was would we have Gardinerian wicca today? Alexandrian Wicca?
If Crowley didn't bring so much attention to Golden Dawn and Thelema magick would new agers use middle pillar to increase their auras and would the Golden Dawn, the OTO and the AA be here today?
maybe he was surrounded by believers and thought their opinion of him was the world's opinion but i would say as far as prophets go. he might not a Mohammad but he's pretty well know and its still early days yet. I'm not saying he's a prophet but i don't think we can afford to deny him that title until all the votes are in.
@Aegis said
"...have you read his poetry....! Talk about a sex-addict and a severe neurotic who attempted to blend spirituality and sexuality
"Are you saying that sexuality and spirituality are not meant to be blended? What church do you go to because I think the vicar loved it when i kept saying "jesus" and he was banging me!
I'd like to tell you about a religion called tantra. with practices such as chakrapuja which often include sexual rites amongst other things such as drinking potions out of skulls.
@Aegis said
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and went insane...!
"Are you telling me there was a change in Crowleys sanity
@Aegis said
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Do you understand that he actually claimed to have conquered the whole Universe in his own lifetime by the simply force of his own human will?
The balls on this guy... How laughable...
"Is the universe simply not another word for the way it is. OR potentially fate. Surely any ritual that appears to change reality has conquered the whole universe. Changing it. Perhaps he meant something else. Perhaps he meant the universe within. Maybe this was a term that was used in a specific way within his group that we no longer understand.
@Aegis said
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And you want to follow this guy's methods...????AHAHHAHAHAHAH....
Yeah, you're sane.
[It really is all a matter of perspective and culture.]
"Actually its a matter of being able to fit in to a culture and get on with daily life. Being able to provide for yourself without being dangerous to other people. As a Law student who is able to maintain his degree, look after a family member who is 94, keep two jobs and still do well at all those things. I think I'm pretty stable, rounded and yes you're right I'm "sane".
@Aegis said
"I guess it's not fair to only be sarcastic.
"You can be sarcastic all you want you're just going to get it back. Sort of like the western idea of karma. In fact your sarcasm was what made this message sooo long. Besides that fact I'm replying to two messages of yours.
@Aegis said
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The "Aeon" is here. Human's are evolving - opening to new levels of consciousness.
"How do you measure consciousness? because otherwise this statement has no meaning.
@Aegis said
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At first, this will be seen as madness by those who do not understand it.
"At first what exactly will be seen as madness?
@Aegis said
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I, for one, feel something of the urge to throw a lifeline to those strong enough to save themselves if someone would just for a moment accept that something of their experience is real and part of a process they need to complete.
"What are you calling 'a lifeline'? Magick?
To those strong enough to save themselves from what? their mental illness such as manic depression?
What experience are you referring to? experience of magickal realities, physical reality, duality becoming whole?Be more specific otherwise you will not be able to communicate.
@Aegis said
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I realize that Liber Legis warns against turning aside from Will to the weak, but if it has anything to do with my Will, then Will desires for humanity to be guided into its wholeness and for the waking potential of those initially mislabelled "mad" and "weak" to be fully realized. That's not turning aside from Will for me. There is simply nothing else as challenging or interesting.
"The material is there to guide people just look at sacred texts. Why should you challenge yourself to change OTHER people. Hate of that is one of the reasons I left the Christian church. I believe I mentioned the other reason earlier in this post. (snigger)
@Aegis said
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That's my general take on the topic, but, yeah, I'd agree about serious magical workings
"the only line you needed to write.
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smooches
You've spent a lot of words misunderstanding my use of sarcasm. Don't worry. I don't mind.
But.... I don't believe those things. Others do. That's basically what I get told.
It's like when Christians talk about the crazy stuff other religions believe - how crazy it is - they themselves all along asking everyone in the world to believe in virgin birth or burn eternally in hell.
My point is that it sounds all secure and stuff to be able to look down from a high position on people who struggle more than you. But I wasn't crazy when I started, and all I determined to do was to love everything with all that I am. The rest was unexpected. So, I'm just poking the new adamant guy with a stick to see how rigid his views are. Because it really is quite complex.
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@Aegis said
"You've spent a lot of words misunderstanding my use of sarcasm. Don't worry. I don't mind.
"I think I understood perfectly what you were trying to say. Regarding Crowley he may have seemed mad but you take someone's actions out of context you're always going to think they're mad. Also when speaking of someone who fancies themselves, a poet, it's never a good idea to take everything they say literally. (otherwise the neighbours will be knocking on your dog asking if you saw who killed the dog).
I don't like reading wishy washy nonsensical words. I'm not autistic but I find it off putting when a person spends ages saying something in such ambiguous words as experience, universe and will without first clarifying what they mean. I understood your use of the word will as I'm a bit of a thelemite. But imagine for a sec someone should show up on a pagan forum and start talking about it's part of my way. Is this a way that can change? IS this a custom? Is this the person's spiritual belief often called their path? Or is it their tao / will? What's the point in posting if you're not saying anything? So I often ask people to rephrase if its sounding wishy washy or ambiguous. If everyone who was in a metempsychotic system spoke the same language we would not have so many different beliefs/religions/systems.
@Aegis said
"But.... I don't believe those things. Others do. That's basically what I get told.
"I understand that but upon evidence their view can be changed.
@Aegis said
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It's like when Christians talk about the crazy stuff other religions believe - how crazy it is - they themselves all along asking everyone in the world to believe in virgin birth or burn eternally in hell.
"Actually London where I live is very atheist so Christians have the same problem as Magickal users but why do we need to talk about faith outside of a circle? (I'm not a fan of evangelism i don't see the point if people are drawn to these things let them go but otherwise i don't talk about religious stuff unless I'm asked.)
@Aegis said
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My point is that it sounds all secure and stuff to be able to look down from a high position on people who struggle more than you. But I wasn't crazy when I started, and all I determined to do was to love everything with all that I am.
"What part of love everything with all that you are is a part of thelema? Crowley seemed anti the Christian way of life. I mean love and hate are irrelevant to spiritual progress as far as I see.
In my buddhist way of looking at things love for the things of this samsara world is what keeps us here. We choose to try again to achieve what we're attached to.@aegis said
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The rest was unexpected. So, I'm just poking the new adamant guy with a stick to see how rigid his views are. Because it really is quite complex."Please put your stick down. In this country that's called rape.
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@Aegis said
"You win."
No zie surrendered when I wanted to fight to the death!!!!
@Myself said
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What part of love everything with all that you are is a part of thelema? Crowley seemed anti the Christian way of life. I mean love and hate are irrelevant to spiritual progress as far as I see.
In my buddhist way of looking at things love for the things of this samsara world is what keeps us here. We choose to try again to achieve what we're attached to.
"I was hoping someone would at least say love is the whole of the law in response to this comment!!!!
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I didn't want to but in,
But I will say that I personally think your statement that love and hate have no relevance to spiritual practice is dead wrong.I was going to say
Love is the Law.
It says so right there.
Btw it doesn't say Love is the Whole of the Law. Subtle difference, but an important one to me...
But I wasn't going to butt into this convo, until this morning after I had had night to let my emotions quell. -
Emotions what are they?
I think that love and hate are different to what the average person experiences. Love causes me to form attachments. This bonds get in the way of my mind trying to concentrate during ritual and often need to be alleviated before a person can pass in through the void. So unless you're hoping to become a left hand rather instead of a babe of the abyss better get ready to alleviate your attachments.
But there is a kind of spiritual love that can exist without causing attachment simply joy.
On the other hand attachments that I've had which have caused me pain have cause such a shift in emotions that i was able to reach an altered state and commune with a deep side of myself which i didn't realise I could. Becuase of the caring nature of this spirit and the fact that it appeared as an "attractive" version of myself, I still wonder if it could have been my HGA.
