Yet another topic on morals - Abortion
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I still think that society is mostly to blame for the majority of abortions. If women could keep their lives/lifestyles/social status and their children there would probably be a lot fewer. In a freer society that allowed more personal responsibility and emphasized respect for individuals maybe fewer women would need/want abortions.
M
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yeah i have read about crowley being aganst abortion. now i am wondering if this also had alot to do with the 9th degree, and all that stuff about the sacredness of sex. i dont know, but from reading about his view of sex especially concerning its magickal-ness, i myself have changed my opinion of abortion. not in that i dont think women should have the right, just i would be much more inclined to want to keep the baby., then i was before my studies on the magickal aspect of sex.
93s
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@bethata418 said
"yeah i have read about crowley being aganst abortion. now i am wondering if this also had alot to do with the 9th degree, and all that stuff about the sacredness of sex. i dont know, but from reading about his view of sex especially concerning its magical-ness, i myself have changed my opinion of abortion. not in that i dont think women should have the right, just i would be much more inclined to want to keep the baby., then i was before my studies on the magical aspect of sex."
The primitive (i.e., 21st Century extreme religious right) view of sex is that it exists just for procreation.
On the other hand, the IX° has nothing to do with physical procreation. Crowley even wrote (I skirt the edge of violating an obligation here because of the source) that, properly done, the IX° avoids conception.
The deeper teaching is that sex is for more than procreation. It is for pleasure that transforms the soul, and for the regenerative process overall.
So, in that sense, I would argue that the magical and illuminative aspects of the sex act are unrelated to physical procreation, and therefore unrelated to the issue of physical abortion.
Nonetheless, I hear what your choice would not be, and I respect that. All we've been fighting for, these decades past, has been choice.
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@chitralekha said
"What are the religious ramifications if abortion is an effective way to prevent crime? The author Steve Levitt has written that since the judgment of Roe vs Wade ( effectively legalizing abortion ) crime has decreased. In five States that introduced legal abortion three years prior to Roe vs Wade the crime rate decreased three years earlier than the national average."
Thank you.
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While on a personal level I am against abortion, I am not one to tell a woman what to do with her body.
Extraneous circumstances non-with-standing, if you are not ready for a child you should not be having sex.
Not to say sex is purely for procreation: If you can not accept the child you have fallen into the pit of because and succumbed to your lust for a result.
The above derived from my general belief that a person should not partake in an action if they are not ready to accept the result (or consequences, as it may be).
Ever unto Her! To Her!
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@Uni_Verse said
"Extraneous circumstances non-with-standing, if you are not ready for a child you should not be having sex."
By "sex" you mean only vaginal intercourse between fertile people, right?
Does that mean that poor people should wait longer to have sex than rich people?
@Uni_Verse said
"The above derived from my general belief that a person should not partake in an action if they are not ready to accept the result (or consequences, as it may be)."
That doesn't mean that once one has acted, they should then passively accept all the potential consequences. One can still act. Just because one made the initial choice to walk down a dark alley, doesn't mean that one cannot run, or fight, if accosted by thugs. The consequence of the initial choice is the situation (being accosted), not the potential outcome of the situation (being beat up).
The bottom line, though, is that birth control is effective. The lifetime unintended pregnancy rate for women in the US who use any form of birth control is about 0.71 pregnancies. Out of those, about half decided to carry to term.* That number can be driven down considerably by education in proper contraceptive use.
In other words, if you consistently and competently use effective birth control, the odds are that you won't ever have to face the issue of an unintended pregnancy.
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My living space is a bit messy, do you mind coming to clean it up for me?
@Avshalom Binyamin said
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By "sex" you mean only vaginal intercourse between fertile people, right?
"No.
@Avshalom Binyamin said
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Does that mean that poor people should wait longer to have sex than rich people?
"No.
@Avshalom Binyamin said
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That doesn't mean that once one has acted, they should then passively accept all the potential consequences. One can still act. Just because one made the initial choice to walk down a dark alley, doesn't mean that one cannot run, or fight, if accosted by thugs. The consequence of the initial choice is the situation (being accosted), not the potential outcome of the situation (being beat up).
"There is no need to accept it passively - I was merely speaking of accepting what is possible.
Birth control is useless if the pills stay in the bottle.
First you have to accept that pregnancy is a potential result of sexual intercourse , only then can you decide to take birth control as a preventative method.
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If I'm understanding you correctly, you're just saying that people need to accept the consequence of actions they take, and not try to evade those consequences after the fact. Am I reading that right, or am I over-generalizing?
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@Uni_Verse said
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@Uni_Verse said
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Extraneous circumstances non-with-standing, if you are not ready for a child you should not be having sex.@Avshalom Binyamin said
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By "sex" you mean only vaginal intercourse between fertile people, right?
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"No.
"So, people who aren't ready for a child should not have sex of any kind, including kinds that couldn't possibly lead to a child? I'm not understanding the connection.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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If I'm understanding you correctly, you're just saying that people need to accept the consequence of actions they take, and not try to evade those consequences after the fact. Am I reading that right, or am I over-generalizing?
"Yes.
I would also add that a person should consider why they are performing said action.
If a person desired only sexual pleasure, without the risk of child, there are other avenues of exploration besides vaginal intercourse.
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@chitralekha said
"What are the religious ramifications if abortion is an effective way to prevent crime? The author Steve Levitt has written that since the judgment of Roe vs Wade ( effectively legalizing abortion ) crime has decreased. In five States that introduced legal abortion three years prior to Roe vs Wade the crime rate decreased three years earlier than the national average."Thank you."
Well this response had me response rolling!
yes, indeed. Thank you very much.I personally have loved getting acquainted with Steven Levitts work, and have recommended both his book and the video to many people. His reasoning on this issue is insightful and from my own person work with unwanted inner city children, very very true. Sad, but true.
As for the religious ramifications....the fear of burning in hell for all eternity has lost it ability to help people make right choices....
Education is paramount to making good choices, information makes that possible.
An intteresting aside, well interesting to me...
I live in the town where a suspected Jack the Ripper came from, as an man who would perform abortions on prostitutes. He had many misfortunes here, and fled to England, where he supposedly got involved in some activities of the, ahem, well....he liked young boys, and he had a few lads in England that he employed or such.... My maternal family actually lived in the area of those murders, at that time. Well years later after doing local history research here, I came across a source that claimed the AC was connected as well to these murders, which may have been brutally failed abortions, and then went on to become some science project gone bad....