Self help, and the Four worlds
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@Ash said
"93.
This isn't quite accurate; I would say that sensation is what we see, hear, sense.
The process of perception involves 4 steps:
- Sensation - a sensory organ picks up raw energy.
- Transduction - the raw energy is converted into a neural signal by special cells in the sense organ.
- Attention - concentrating mental energy on processing neural signal
- Perception - interpretation of the processed neural signal.
This process allows for lots of perceptual anomalies/artifacts/quirks, such as optical illusions and Gestalt laws of perception (such as the Law of Similarity which states that we tend to perceive like objects as being grouped together).
Perception has a lot to do with the way our bodies work and also a lot to do with how our brains process these signals. The way we experience the world is via processed and interpreted signals which may be distorted at any of several points in the chain.
"I was telling you the model that was given us in therapy. "You perceive events, your interpretation is not what you perceived." Example: You perceived a loud noise, you interpreted it as a danger. It was a car horn one block away.
@Takamba said
"[Thinking is a behavior (according to this model) and all behaviors are learned and can be relearned."
@Ash said
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Not all behaviors are learned; look at instincts, which are, by definition, unlearned - they're "hardwired" responses.
"Please define what you mean by "instincts." I can come up with one, suckling. It is an "instinct" but it can be unlearned - it is learned that it is a successful response and so remains one for the infant. Scratching an itch may be considered another "instinct" but as you learned in your practice of Raja, both the perception and the response can be retrained. So where does this definition of "instinct" actual negate the CBT model of learned behaviors?
@Takamba said
"Breaking thinking down to mere synaptic firing of electricity along established routes and emotions down to mere biochemical reactions is no different than breaking down a karate chop to an electrical impulse fired through the muscles of the arm. That isn't it, that is merely the method of it."
@Ash said
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Excellent point. I'm just trying to point out that the word "thought" is not all that precise, and if we are to include "thought" and "emotion" on separate points in the model that Frater Potater has discussed here, I think we need to get more clear on what we mean by these terms, and where things like assumptions and instincts (it's an instinct to react to fear with anger, I think) fit into this model.I'm really enjoying this thread by the way
93, 93/93."I think I'll leave the thoughts now with what I've said above. As far as defining thoughts and feelings and emotions (three distinct things in my opinion) I'll say this: Thoughts are the dialogue we have with ourselves that provide definitions and instructions to our cognitive self. Feelings are the ethereal experiences we have within our bodies in reaction to perceived events around us. Emotions are the actions we use to express our feelings. If these are too vague, let me know.
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@Takamba said
"I was telling you the model that was given us in therapy. "You perceive events, your interpretation is not what you perceived." Example: You perceived a loud noise, you interpreted it as a danger. It was a car horn one block away."
Okay, gotcha. I was going by the definition given to me in my cognitive psych class this semester.
@Takamba said
"Please define what you mean by "instincts." I can come up with one, suckling. It is an "instinct" but it can be unlearned - it is learned that it is a successful response and so remains one for the infant. Scratching an itch may be considered another "instinct" but as you learned in your practice of Raja, both the perception and the response can be retrained. So where does this definition of "instinct" actual negate the CBT model of learned behaviors?"
By "instincts" I mean responses that do not have to be learned, usually occurring without conscious involvement, and disappearing (normally) when the stimulus is removed.
For example: If a pitcher throws a baseball at me at 90 mph and it's clearly going to hit me, my instinct is to turn away from it and cover my head. No one taught me this, I did not consciously think about it when I did it (I had no time), and when the threat disappears I stop covering my head and cringing.
Going by what I learned in my child psych class last semester (and only on that), infant behaviors are not clearly instincts or consciously-chosen behaviors - they're something in between.
I'm not saying that this definition of instinct invalidates anything; I'm just saying that not all behaviors are learned, though social learning can certainly have its own effects on behavior.
Sure, my perceptions and responses can be retrained, but there are a lot of different levels at which this could take place in the process of perception and interpretation, and what exactly is changed is going to be different in each case. For example, I could take an antidepressant to treat depression, and it will affect the reuptake of serotonin (if it's an SSRI) in my brain. I could also go on a vacation, redecorate my room, sell my clothes and buy a new wardrobe, get new friends, etc, in order to work on the things that trigger and maintain my emotional states. Finally, I could engage in talk therapy or even solitary work to identify, analyze, and restructure my thought processes and methods of labeling the world. These are all things that I have used to cope with anxiety and depression in the past, and I happen to be doing all 3 right now.
@Takamba said
"I think I'll leave the thoughts now with what I've said above. As far as defining thoughts and feelings and emotions (three distinct things in my opinion) I'll say this: Thoughts are the dialogue we have with ourselves that provide definitions and instructions to our cognitive self. Feelings are the ethereal experiences we have within our bodies in reaction to perceived events around us. Emotions are the actions we use to express our feelings. If these are too vague, let me know."
So you would include assumptions under "thoughts" here, yes? This means that "thought" must include things that are beneath the threshold of conscious awareness.
I'm not sure I understand your definition of emotions as "actions" that express feelings; can you elaborate?
Other than that, I can work with these.
93, 93/93.
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@Ash said
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So you would include assumptions under "thoughts" here, yes? This means that "thought" must include things that are beneath the threshold of conscious awareness.I'm not sure I understand your definition of emotions as "actions" that express feelings; can you elaborate?
Other than that, I can work with these.
"As I said before, I put "assumptions" (your words) in with "Core beliefs" and what I define as "attitudes." These are thought patterns, or foundations of our thoughts, that we no longer give cognitive fuel to. In other words, these are the social and parental models you've "assumed." You "assume" women (for instance) have specific roles they play, you "believe" a woman does this or does that. You don't "Know" these things, yet you condition your entire perceptive model and response model on these things. If I were to ask you "what did your parents teach you about sex?" You might first respond with "well, they sat me down and told me..." and then I would interrupt you and say, "no, what I mean is, in their lives, how did they respond to the core topic of sex? For instance, where they free with the topic or restrictive? Did they teach you it was taboo or that it was sacred? Do you believe it is dirty or do you believe it is a natural and fluid human trait?" Your core beliefs about money, for instance (what some term a "lack versus abundance model") will influence your day to day thought processes regarding how you interpret events which you perceive around you. That's what I'm getting at. So what you call "beneath the threshold" I actually place "above the threshold" in the realm of beliefs. (Above and below not being important, what is important is that these types of thoughts aren't "thoughts" per se, but foundations of thought and I call them beliefs.) Core beliefs are beliefs that are not easily rationalized away, they are embedded within your personality (some argue that they cannot be changed, but this is not a belief I hold).
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@Ash said
"93.
I understand now, and agree with your take.
Sorry if that's anticlimactic; I simply think you've won the exchange.
93, 93/93."
I won the Internet! Woohoo! (Just kidding. You know what they say about winning an Internet argument.... "you're still retarded.") I wasn't thinking about winning or losing, I'm just trying to reconcile or model the Qabalistic model on what I've agreed is an effective cognitive model and I think with your help in getting me to iron things out I've done so. I'm putting Core Beliefs/Attitudes in the Briahtic realm. Placing Feelings/Thoughts in the Yetziratic realm makes a lot of sense to me. This makes great sense to me since the Cognitive model has 5 layers and the Qabalistic only 4. I don't know why I never thought of it before tonight.
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I am curious,
I don't think that life, people, things.... Learn. At all.
I think I am pretty solid with the idea that all actions, all movement, all life is simple habitual, which could be like instinct, and could explain why some instincts fade.
I have been working with the idea that even the so called laws of the worlds, of the universe, are just habits, and that eventually over time and spec. These laws will seace, stop being laws, become bendable and flexible, and that is why Magic can happen.
Some are good habits and enhance life, continuing life, and some habits are not life enhancing and destroy life.
If I sit in school and memorize my time tables, have a truly learned, or have I just made myself habitually respond in a. Certain manner to get a gold star?
I would speculate that really the only thing that would real be learning is when we change our habits, and force ourselves to almost take a leap of faith and just know that we need to do something different, cause what we are doing isn't working.
I don't go around writing imagine though, I could change my mind, but I haven't yet.
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@Veronica said
"
I have been working with the idea that even the so called laws of the worlds, of the universe, are just habits, and that eventually over time and spec. These laws will seace, stop being laws, become bendable and flexible, and that is why Magic can happen............
I would speculate that really the only thing that would real be learning is when we change our habits, and force ourselves to almost take a leap of faith and just know that we need to do something different, cause what we are doing isn't working."
amen
That's a much more feminine perspective and one to which I strongly resonate.
I read a book recently by Joseph Chilton Pearce called 'The Biology of Transcendence', and in the preface to the book he describes an experience that was life changing for him. He discovered in himself a state he called the 'unconflicted mind' where the laws of the physcial world seemed to bend for him. He said that there was a brief moment that he learned to recognise in which he would understand that he was already dead (as in, death was inevitable), so physical law couldn't hold him. It was a state with no internal dialog, no conflict, and if he just moved on his impluses they would succeed (I think he covers it more in 'The Crack in the Cosmic Egg', which I haven't read yet). I think that would support the idea that we can transcend the normal laws by letting go of rules, laws, and habits. (he couldn't be burned, seemed to defy gravity while rock climbing etc.)
For myself I insist on refusing the idea that we can learn through lifes hardships, spartan discipline or self punishment. Instead I insist (to myself) that we learn through the beauty and love and makes us more whole and heals the damaged understanding. Things can grow and evolve under various conditions, but compare what grows in a dry rocky harsh environment and what grows in lush moist fertile environment... I would prefer to be in the second catagory. It's my way of trying to reprogram the patriarchal system out of my psyche and hopefully that will overflow into my reality.
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@Ash said
"1. Sensation - a sensory organ picks up raw energy.
- Transduction - the raw energy is converted into a neural signal by special cells in the sense organ.
- Attention - concentrating mental energy on processing neural signal
- Perception - interpretation of the processed neural signal."
I tend to enjoy Four this way:
- Y - Electricity - Hadit(Sensation)
- H - Magnetism - Nuit(Transduction)
- V - Electromagnetic spectrum - Ra-Hoor-Khuit(Attention)
- H - Resonance - Ma'at(Perception)
Then comes THE ARROW, and things get fun.
Thoth, the Secret Beast, and his wily Five!A meditation upon the 5th Aethyr may be fruitful in times such as these.
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Oh, and Veronica:
Keep up the nice work!
I know you don't need me to tell you that, though, haha.
The Feminine Knowing that seeds, for however interesting and amazing they are in their basic form, containing all possibility, MUST change and MUST grow for that possibility to manifest is a foundation that is missing from so many minds.Thank you for keeping the Feminine Faith alive for us here to behold.
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Thank you very much for your kind words Diluvium,
I recall playground arguments between boys and girls..
Girls can't do this, or that
And the girls would say I can do anything you can do....And the boys would whip down their pants and pee on a tree, and say do that.
Which always pretty much ended it.
I married a man with two kids, a son and a daughter. One day I was in my bedroom, and looked down the hall to see this little three year old girl, go to the toilet. She dropped her pants, grabbed at her self, and peed into the folksy, standing up.
After that I knew their could no excuse for females not doing and being everything they are fully capable of.
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@Veronica said
"After that I knew their could no excuse for females not doing and being everything they are fully capable of."
And being a boy faced with these unbelievably sexy Truths, I simply bow to the power and hope for my chance to play along.
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@RhiH said
"Years ago my mother encouraged me to listen to her cd set of "The Secret". I started going through it and thought, "Wait a minute, where have I heard this before?" I walked over to my book shelves and looked at the spines of several books I had there and found Thought Vibration or the Law of Attraction in the Thought World, W.W. Atkinson, 1906. In my opinion, the whole thing is just a rip off of W.W.Atkinson, and he did it better, and cheaper. I think it's terribly dishonest to take someone elses work and claim it as your own wonderful new work... and to charge money for it. "
I just looked on amazon.com, you can get Thought Vibration or the Law of Attraction in the Thought World, by W.W. Atkinson, a new copy for $6.40 and a kindle of it for even less. So I am getting one.
Though I did not care for the Secret, but amazon lets you look inside, and Atkinson's book looked much more tolerable.
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Oh maybe this relates here, I liked this video:
TO UNDERSTAND IS TO PERCEIVE PATTERNS
by Jason Silva