Pressure to convert to Islam
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I agree with everything Jim just said.
A lot for you to consider, I think.
A lot coming in at once, I'm sure.No matter your decision, I trust your Angel's guidance.
Will you ask for it? Have you already? How does your Angel feel about all this?
Enter your Heart and ask for a sign.
Is the love for this woman more important than the love for your Angel?
Your Heart will know, more than any of us will. -
give up the Law of Liberty in exchange for the Islamic dogma and the suppression of individual will? No thanks. But of course, 'to each their own'. I would not shackle myself thusly for a woman.
Curious though, what would happen if you ever got 'found out' for being a closet Thelemite. I'd say... no good can come of this.
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Once upon a time, I married a woman who is a Christian. Even though I had told her before we married that I was not a Christian, after we married I decided that for her sake, I could be an "esoteric Christian". I would go to church with her and go through all the rigamarole, but find a mystical significance. I would worship using the symbols and forms of Christianity, but interpret them as a mystic or gnostic.
Boy was that ever a mistake!
We have been divorced for years now, largely for other reasons. But I learned very clearly that you can't tame the egregore or accumulated karma of a major world religion and keep it on a leash. It won't do tricks for you like a dog. (Neither will a dog, but that's another story.) "Motion about a point is iniquity."
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@gmugmble said
"Once upon a time, I married a woman who is a Christian. Even though I had told her before we married that I was not a Christian, after we married I decided that for her sake, I could be an "esoteric Christian". I would go to church with her and go through all the rigamarole, but find a mystical significance. I would worship using the symbols and forms of Christianity, but interpret them as a mystic or gnostic.
Boy was that ever a mistake!
We have been divorced for years now, largely for other reasons. But I learned very clearly that you can't tame the egregore or accumulated karma of a major world religion and keep it on a leash. It won't do tricks for you like a dog. (Neither will a dog, but that's another story.) "Motion about a point is iniquity.""
Tell me about it, that's a great way to make yourself crazy, I did this for nearly four years, it was a hell of an experience, not one I care to repeat, but sometimes you need to see these things for yourself
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I think it is time for you to surrender... to your Self.
Instead of looking to loose your Self in some-thing Else.
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Jim has said it pretty well. I've studied Islam a fair amount -- considered it myself a number of years ago while I was in the spiritual wilderness -- but it's nice to come back to where I belong.
Let me just say a few things:@Jim Eshelman said
"There are so many alarm bells going off in response to the above paragraph that I barely know where to begin."
This.
"Until you've met, spent time together, explored the sexual aspects of your relationship,"
(Everything else I say here assumes she's pretty serious and devout in her faith.)
... something which Sunni Islam very, very strongly frowns on, although Shi'ism has temporary marriage contracts. However, before she could marry a man, he would have to be a Muslim. A Muslim woman is not allowed to marry a non-Muslim man, because the man of the couple is "in charge" in religious matters, and a non-Muslim husband would lead a Muslim woman astray; so even before a Shi'a temporary ("mut'ah") marriage, you would have to convert to Islam.
And Islam has that lovely property that (again, reading it strictly), once you convert to it, if you apostasize, the punishment is supposed to be death. While that may not be enforceable where you live, it's something to think about.
"Since you asked for advice, I'll give it: Don't found a marriage on any sort of deception."
This. My first (and so far only) marriage was founded on *self-*deception, and that was more than bad enough.
"Disallowed by her? See, that's the warning sign. That she would consider that she has the right or power to DISALLOW such explorations is the warning sign."
Especially given, as I said above, that the man is "in charge". That implies she doesn't feel you'd really be a Muslim, on some level. (The well-known rule in orthodox mosques of both sects that a woman may not lead prayers is closely linked with the notion that in the marriage, the woman takes her religious cues from the man.)
I have much sympathy for head-over-heels love, but I'd be lying if all the alerts in my head weren't yelling "Run. Away. Now."
Best,
--Shawn -
@gmugmble said
"Once upon a time, I married a woman who is a Christian ... Boy was that ever a mistake!"
You too, eh? My ex and I met through mutual friends who were Thelemites, and she was in fact studying it ... then after we'd been together a while, she decided to fully re-embrace ultra-conservative Baptism.
Bad stuff.
The good news is I've almost replaced all my occult books that she sold ...
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@gmugmble said
"We have been divorced for years now, largely for other reasons. But I learned very clearly that you can't tame the egregore or accumulated karma of a major world religion and keep it on a leash. It won't do tricks for you like a dog. (Neither will a dog, but that's another story.) "Motion about a point is iniquity." "
It would appear to me as if you were dealing with the aggregate of peoples interpretation or associations of the symbols, rather than the symbols themselves.
I could be wrong, but I received interesting results working with them.
Reflecting on it, in this moment, I kind of see it as the Moon to the Sun of Light & Life that is Thelema (to me).Dogs love doing tricks for You
They know that by making you happy, you will make them happy : give them a treat!Woof! Woof!
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Sure, but there's a big difference between finding private value in a set of symbols, and trying to do that while plugged into a community (hive-mind) that has built up their own meaning for those symbols.
i.e., it's a lot harder to work with an esoteric Christ symbol if you have to attend a fundamentalist Baptist church weekly, with a fundamentalist Baptist spouse. A lot of your energy will have to be spent actively resisting the group energy. The dog is much bigger.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"i.e., it's a lot harder to work with an esoteric Christ symbol if you have to attend a fundamentalist Baptist church weekly, with a fundamentalist Baptist spouse. A lot of your energy will have to be spent actively resisting the group energy. The dog is much bigger."
I feel the error is in actively resisting.
Continuing with the dog analogy...
If you are tense and afraid, a dog will pick up on that... react accordingly.
The same is true if you are relaxed and open.If you spend all your energy resisting the image formulated by the group mind you will lack the energy to cut through to its source.
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There is much more to the Universe than just the Moon.
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@Uni_Verse said
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I feel the error is in actively resisting.
Continuing with the dog analogy...
If you are tense and afraid, a dog will pick up on that... react accordingly.
The same is true if you are relaxed and open.If you spend all your energy resisting the image formulated by the group mind you will lack the energy to cut through to its source."
All the more reason to be careful about conversion.
So what happens if you don't resist? Maybe the group is plugged into a source that will be helpful for you, and maybe it isn't.
My point was that you can't just plug yourself into any religious group and expect to be able to get good results. I'm not saying it can't be done in any religion, just that it's not especially likely in more fundamentalist groups.
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@Avshalom Binyamin said
"All the more reason to be careful about conversion."
I entirely agree about being careful with conversion.
I am not really commenting on that (just to be clear).@Avshalom Binyamin said
"So what happens if you don't resist? Maybe the group is plugged into a source that will be helpful for you, and maybe it isn't."
Nothing. I am speaking of a passive action, offering no resistance. This should not be mistaken with the idea of surrendering. Which is arguably an active action, but that is to go off on a tangent.
@Avshalom Binyamin said
"
My point was that you can't just plug yourself into any religious group and expect to be able to get good results. I'm not saying it can't be done in any religion, just that it's not especially likely in more fundamentalist groups.
"Was going to say something here, but getting cut short. Costume change!
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Has nobody noticed that the original poster has stopped replying, or maybe you were all too busy soapboxing?
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Soap box?
We are merely sharing ideas, thoughts, experiences...
In the course of a discussion.
I am enjoying myself, I hope others are as well,
So I continue.