Vision of the HGA vs. KCHGA
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@Frater S.R. said
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@Frater INRI said
"Invoke more frequently."Is bhakti-yoga the key?"
It may be for you. That's part of what you have to discover yourself.
That's why the A.'.A.'. teaches a whole range of techniques. The 4=7 has to show mastery of the methodology of bhakti. But for other people a purely the key may be gnana yoga. To others, a purely ceremonial magick invocatory approach. Others could attain via pure karma yoga. (In fact, the method of living Thelema is a practice of karma yoga that can be a complete method of attainment on its own.)
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@Frater S.R. said
"Is bhakti-yoga the key?"
Interesting, if difficult question.
As already said, it is subjective, and as Jim here said, it may work for you and it *might *not.
What I would like to point out, however, is that bhakti/prema ("Love" tends to be a close translation) is important part of the work. It is the non-elemental component, purely transpersonal or transcendental in nature.
Openness to completely unknown and unknowable does help. It is the Love that springs from deep within, independently of any ritual.
It is a blessing from the Angel Him/Herself. It is She that "sends" Him.
Hope that helps.
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Yes. Love isn't emotion. (Certainly not in the sense of the reactive patterns we usually call "emotions.")
Love isn't emotion. It's inspiration.
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In a lower scale, what would be the necessary conditions to trigger the Vision of Adonai?
Would it be the astral development that happens during the Neophyte grade?It is a phenomenon typical of AA or it can be attained in other traditions like GD and BOTA?
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@Faus said
"In a lower scale, what would be the necessary conditions to trigger the Vision of Adonai?
Would it be the astral development that happens during the Neophyte grade?"In general, the key factor is readiness. That's not always easy to judge a priori.
But yes, the undertaking of the astral work at 1=10 almost certainly would contribute, since that opens the exact channels - opening Malkuth in Yetzirah behind Malkuth in Assiah.
I suspect it's not entirely that simple. There are "life context" conditions and general "readiness" or "ripeness" factors. The fact that it is characteristic of A.'.A.'. 1=10 is surely substantially fruit of the astral work, but probably also a consequence of a year as Probationer and memorizing a chapter of Liber LXV - so I could certainly recommend the latter!
"It is a phenomenon typical of AA or it can be attained in other traditions like GD and BOTA?"
Interesting that you mention BOTA. Case's description of the attainments in Tiphereth (in one of the medium-advanced lessons) is talking about BOTA's 5=6, and his description is one of the finest I have ever seen... of A.'.A.'. 1=10! This isn't surprising, considering that the work undertaken in A.'.A.'. 1=10 is essentially the G.D. Second Order curriculum.
Other G.D. writers have spoken similarly (but less eloquently than Case), so I'd say the traditional G.D. 5=6 level does have the capacity (and perhaps the routine capacity, when well-delivered) of bringing this about. (Remember, the G.D. 5=6 isn't really a Tiphereth initiation - it's ZAM, Zelator Adeptus Minor, the Malkuth initiation within Yetzirah.) It certainly flowers in Temple of Thelema 5°.
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Interesting! The Vision of Adonai is not necessarily the result of a magical operation undertaken specifically to attain it, like the Abramelin or Samekh ritual used by the Adept.
You said that memorizing a chapter of LXV can be an important part of it. Could a “minor” Abramelin (devotional practice towards the Angel) be of some benefit for the "readiness" of the Neophyte?
Sorry of this questions sound silly, but the Vision of Adonai is something that I`ve never heard about before joining this forum.
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@Faus said
"Interesting! The Vision of Adonai is not necessarily the result of a magical operation undertaken specifically to attain it, like the Abramelin or Samekh ritual used by the Adept."
Right. It's a spontaneous development (of other work, perhaps - since ceremonies like the Temple of Thelema 1° set up the conditions for it).
"You said that memorizing a chapter of LXV can be an important part of it. Could a “minor” Abramelin (devotional practice towards the Angel) be of some benefit for the "readiness" of the Neophyte?"
Could be
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@Jim Eshelman said
" There are "life context" conditions and general "readiness" or "ripeness" factors. "
I've had an experience twice now that seems to match the description of the "Vision of the Holy Guardian Angel", and after reading Jim's comment above, I thought it might be somehow useful to share this. The first time, which was the better part of a year ago now, occurred at a particularly bad time in my life: I had been unemployed for a few months, basically flat broke, at the tail end of a depression, and then just two days before my girlfriend I was living with at the time had broken up with me under extremely unpleasant circumstances, and--since it was her apartment--given me only a short period of time to get out. So, after hardly sleeping for for those two days and feeling totally devastated, I attended Gnostic Mass at my Oasis (where I actually felt some sense of relief and comfort for the first time in a quiet awhile). I had intended to direct the energy from communion into stabilizing my circumstances, but somehow, after knocking back that goblet of wine (it gets really hard to put into words at this point) I had an epiphany, you could say, with the sudden, clear understanding that only the Great Work was worth devoting my life to, and that only there could I find anything like peace or happiness. Suddenly inflamed by this, I spontaneously swore some kind of oath (though it wasn't really in language--again I don't have the vocabulary to describe this) that everything I have and everything I am should be devoted to the Great Work, and then... well, a presence descended and a voice spoke clearly, and nothing's been the same since. In the second experience, part of the first was restated, along with additional information, and I was also given a name. In both of these occurrences I heard a voice, almost as if it were coming from outside of me. I had a definite sense of spatial location, but no direct visuals. A certain geometric figure came to mind during the first experience, but it wasn't the image of the entity that spoke, it just accompanied it, I suppose.
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"Interestingly, though this is called "vision," most people I've talked to have experienced this in an auditory way. There is a clear sense of dialogue, conversation (inb the colloquiel and modern sense of the word), and sometimes visual elements as well,. (And some people, being more visual, get visions.) "
I had an interesting experience I'm reluctant to label as the Vision of the HGA but it's worth sharing:
I'm laying on my couch, stoned, on my way to sleep. I decide to do some rhythmic breathing and all of a sudden my mind starts getting flooded with a barrage of disturbing thoughts. I begin to panic a little, but manage to bring my attention back on my breathing.
Here's where things get dicey: A voice, MY voice, says "You ain't got nothing on me." However, it wasn't the voice of my regular internal dialogue. It was a clear, firm, authoritative voice and the location of voice came from above and behind me.
Then it said "Hold steady" and I felt something wrap itself around me and take me a down a tunnel of lights. Then the disturbing thoughts faded.
I still have no idea what it was. I try not to attach any undue significance to it. It was a pretty cool experience though.
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@Al-Shariyf said
"Here's where things get dicey: A voice, MY voice, says "You ain't got nothing on me." However, it wasn't the voice of my regular internal dialogue. It was a clear, firm, authoritative voice and the location of voice came from above and behind me. "
That's not far from my experience at all, though it definitely wasn't my voice. It had a beautiful, almost bell-like quality to it. The sense of calm, clear authority was beyond anything I've heard before or since, except for my second experience with it, which occurred in a dream, actually. Even in a dream the voice was unmistakable, and clear far beyond any lucid dream I've experienced (and this particular dream was not even lucid). Reflecting on it now, it feels like the voice was not really in the dream at all, but outside of it. The only metaphor that comes to mind is that it would be like watching TV and being more or less fully absorbed in what you're watching when suddenly the sound is muted and the last line of dialogue is filled in by someone standing directly behind you. So it was integrated in the sense of fitting coherently into the narrative, but also completely outside of it. In a way that's not a bad metaphor for how it felt the first time, either, but the distinction between the two levels was perhaps not as (noticeably) sharp.
"I still have no idea what it was. I try not to attach any undue significance to it. It was a pretty cool experience though. "
It's been said before, but has it changed your life in any way? Has it helped you along your path?
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"The only metaphor that comes to mind is that it would be like watching TV and being more or less fully absorbed in what you're watching when suddenly the sound is muted and the last line of dialogue is filled in by someone standing directly behind you. So it was integrated in the sense of fitting coherently into the narrative, but also completely outside of it. In a way that's not a bad metaphor for how it felt the first time, either, but the distinction between the two levels was perhaps not as (noticeably) sharp."
That's pretty awesome....and interesting!
"It's been said before, but has it changed your life in any way? Has it helped you along your path?"
Yeah it has. Incidents like this keep me seeking the palace of Gold
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When i was 19 years old i began experimenting with magick. I moved to my mothers garage, built a temple and started practicing regular rituals, meditation and reading. I frequented the local library and found a book that spoke of the need to find your 'True will'. After about 3 months one day i asked myself- i wonder what is my True will. That night during sleep i had an extremely intense experience. After 30 years i have never spoke of this.
Now is the first time. I was visited by my angel, she wore blue, with golden hair, there was wind about, she sat floating. This was not just any normal vision- this was an experience- not just me envisioning a regular spirit- this was an intense- dramatic experience and one that is never to be forgotten and to leave me in ore for the rest of my life. The experience had a certain shock on my nervous system, the most relevant thing about it was this all encompassing sense of BEAUTY. It was not so much that she was beautiful but a sense of beauty, of eternity, a sense of true belonging, that this is the place to be, that this is what i am. She spent a minute speaking to me- her hands waved about - then i asked her 'what is my true will' - a strange wall came down and i was forbidden to hear what she had to say. The vision faded away.
later i realized that i had had visions of her when i was 5 years old, again at 16, and also i had glimpses of here later in life- however, never never as intense of that night. It is something you will never forget.
I consider this experience a vision of the HGA.Not to be confused with K&C, which occurred some 13 years later. My personal definition is the bringing of your inner light to full outer waking consciousness. That experience for me, i will always see in terms of 'light' as i had many experiences with the light during the 10 months trance. It seems that the Ruach is aligned with the yechida, your completely square up with yourself, you join with your inner self and properly manifest the light. Eckard Toll describes it very well. I don't think K&C is 'conversation ' per sa, but rather illumination to full outer waking consciousness. A state of loosing all false perceptions of yourself, of seeing the whole picture, of absorbing your soul into ego self. Of returning to the original intended state. Fullfiling your purpose.
Q
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@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes. Love isn't emotion. (Certainly not in the sense of the reactive patterns we usually call "emotions.")
Love isn't emotion. It's inspiration."
Yep, I like that description.
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@Dar es Allarah said
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Leary explored and expounded on the same idea. He did some nice work on it."Leary?
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That book he mentioned, btw, is one of my favorite books on personality theory. It dates from around 1950 and is IIRC based on research he did through the Kaiser Foundation. I had a hand in keeping it in print through seeing it would stay part of certain academic programs back in the late '70s or very early '80s.
Tim could come across as very detached, removed. He was actually a deeply loving person (well, with a quirky temper to match his quirky sense of humor). He had the capacity to be deeply moved, but tended to keep himself pretty protected (maybe just 'celebrity shieldind' or a sort - but it always felt to me that he felt things more strongly than most people, was automatically picking up on several psychic levels, and that this made contact with people fairly intense for him - perhaps especially non-intimates, but certainly even small clusters of people he didn't really know).
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From his horoscope, he was probably always on the high-strung edge (and, even late in life, he could release that as very dynamic energy and charisma that wouldn't quit - I have a funny story to tell sometime about a champagne bottle). But I'm pretty sure his extensive LSD (etc.) use stripped away a lot of natural protection. He didn't outwardly (that I ever saw) indulge in the sort of "not connecting & don't see me!" behavior most people use routinely. Some of his chemical use may actually have left his nervous system a little raw (though, again, I think that predisposition or actuality was there all his life - Aquarius Moon closely conjunct Uranus).
I think he had just blown most of the blinders off a long time before, and therefore was responding (with awareness) to far more than most people consciously detect.
Most people are more likely to associate that kind of sensitivith with Alpert, rather than Leary; but seeing the two of them fall into a hug with each other (after a long time of not seeing each other) was incredibly beautiful. They were both "all in" with each other, seems to me.
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Dar and Frater INRI, I wouldn't go so far as to say "Emotions are all based on fear." I wouldn't say that it was too far from the mark, but to relate them all to "fear" might give us permission to discredit our emotional body (which does serve several purposes). I would say "emotions are signs of dis-ease or imbalance," but not necessarily fear. Of course, I guess you could argue that a "lack of fear" or a resulting "realizing I had no need to fear" (aka happy thoughts) is "based on fear," but I think that's a stretch.
I like Crowley's concept that consciousness is a sign of "dis-ease," that we aren't exactly conscious of ourselves (or something) until it creates a disturbance. Lack of ease is not exactly equal to fear.
Just sayin'
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Timothy Leary - yes. He was a psychiatrist and I read an important paper by him when I was younger... 'The Politics of Ecstasy':"
Most of the stuff this guy wrote is pure bullsh*t to me.
@Dar es Allarah said
"I think he was going a bit black and white with his argument there actually. I recall the rest being better quality when he get's over the tirade. It sounds as if he's against emotions but I think all he's saying is that they aren't the be all and end all. One of the reasons why I like Mozart is his emotional passion is mixed perfectly with his love and his genius - fuelling it and thrusting the animal forth to make from it a God...
The emotions can be any which way but they need to chime and synchronise with the rest. With Mozart - he shows us how."
In my life, emotions (anger, sadness etc...) are fueled by unfulfilled needs, that's all. Nothing wrong or right about them.
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@Takamba said
"Dar and Frater INRI, I wouldn't go so far as to say "Emotions are all based on fear." "
I did not side with the guy who wrote that "Emotions are all based on fear."
That's pure nonsense, IMO.@Takamba said
"I wouldn't say that it was too far from the mark, but to relate them all to "fear" might give us permission to discredit our emotional body (which does serve several purposes). I would say "emotions are signs of dis-ease or imbalance," but not necessarily fear. Of course, I guess you could argue that a "lack of fear" or a resulting "realizing I had no need to fear" (aka happy thoughts) is "based on fear," but I think that's a stretch.
"I agree.
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@Dar es Allarah said
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I really got off on it in my 20's. It was raw and exactly what I needed at the time. Sometimes it's a much as how people say things as what they say that gives you the rocket fuel. Crowley was good at that too.
"I see.