New in magick
-
ah, the rare occasion when I disagree with James. I don't infer that question, I take it at face value: chicken or egg. The egg was first.
[Edit] I do infer that most people that ask the question don't assume evolution and believe that God created everyting singularly "after its kind." So yes, for them, the question implies [chicken] egg as no other kind of creature could have produced a chicken bearing egg. [Edit] According to that thinking.
-
The egg was first. The first chicken egg, laid by an animal that was not yet completely a chicken.
Didn't you people discuss something about opiates, control, and what makes sense to deal with that or not? The U-turn was a bit abrupt; there I wanted to inject myself into the self-control (or not) debate and then the damn chickens come up ... or is this still, indirectly, the same topic?
-
@Simon Iff said
"The egg was first. The first chicken egg, laid by an animal that was not yet completely a chicken."
But that wasn't a chicken egg. It was a deformed or mutated pteranadon egg or some such thing. Only a chicken can lay a chicken egg. It predecessor can only lay a "broken" egg of its own species.
PS - This thread wasn't originally about opiates, either. Read the initial post. All the opiate posts were off-topic, but so multitudinous that I felt I shouldn't just go through and delete them. I feel that at present we are derailing the off-topic digression. Would anyone like to get back on the original topic?
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"But that wasn't a chicken egg. It was a deformed or mutated pteranadon egg or some such thing. Only a chicken can lay a chicken egg. It predecessor can only lay a "broken" egg of its own species."
Isn't that a tad creationist in onlook? I mean, as Tim Leary said, there is no such thing as a "pure" species, we are all mutants. Following your train of thought, we would be ultra-broken versions of some single-celled ancestors who were somehow less deformed than we are.
You can shove the limit around, but if, assume, chickens stem from pteranodons, there must have been a generation where the line deep in inbetween grey territory was crossed (at least it can be seen like that in retrospect). So at some point you have something that is "not-yet-a-chicken" give birth (well, lay egg) to a ""just-so-already" chicken, no?
And actually it is more complicated than that as the change from one "species" to another usually takes thousands of generations - and not one mutation, more like also hundreds - until the new life form can no longer have offspring with the older version or the other branches from the older version, this is the definition of species, as far as I know.
Applied to the older discussion, I'd suggest control and letting-go / flow are two sides of at least one coin and have to be seen as such if one is to solve the questions of intention and ethics of, say, presumed opiate use for personal or even transpersonal development.
-
While I have taken the form of a man in this incarnation, it is my body that is male, not I.
-
@Dar es Allarah said
"I think that, to truly have control then a person must be able to truly control their place in time and space. I believe there are people like that, looking as regular as you or I, and living on this planet, but they aren't human beings."
I am curious about that idea - what makes you think that?
-
I'm pretty sure the original topic has been exhausted. Hi new person to the forum named James. I wouldn't recommend Goetic practices for a beginner.
-
"As long as you have a body, and certainly as long as you have something that passes for a personality, you wil have illusion. In fact, you will continue using illusion as the essential functional parameter of your psyche and life. (Maya isn't illusion as such - it's the substance out of which particular illusions are formed.)
Rather than "becoming liberated from... illusion," I suggest a much more valuable practice (at the heart of magick, in fact): the ability to assume one illusion or another at will, and to move through them as they are useful."
I agree wholeheartedly.
Of the statement;
"Maya isn't illusion as such - it's the substance out of which particular illusions are formed."
Do I take you to be saying that Maya and the Human Being are one and the same?Love is the Law, Love under Will.
-
@Quad Nine 9 said
"Of the statement;
"Maya isn't illusion as such - it's the substance out of which particular illusions are formed."
Do I take you to be saying that Maya and the Human Being are one and the same?"No. I wouldn't call a human being "the substance out of which particular illusions are formed." (Or, in the narrow sense that this might be arguable, it would only be one particular example.)
Think of Maya as the modelling clay of perceivable reality: The mind is the molder. The illusion is the particular shape into which the mind molds the clay. This is especially why Maya is called the mother-substance. (Think of the Path of Beth striking and inseminating the the Great Sea of Binah as a directed attention from the still Self in Kether.)
Consider from Liber Magi (thinking of the Magus in this sense as especially the Path of Beth):
@Liber Magi said
"1. In the beginning doth the Magus speak Truth, and send forth Illusion and Falsehood to enslave the soul. Yet therein is the Mys-tery of Redemption.
-
By a Magus is this writing made known through the mind of a Magister. The one uttereth clearly, and the other understandeth; yet the Word is falsehood, and the Understanding darkness. And this saying is Of All Truth.
-
Let Him beware of abstinence from action. For the curse of His grade is that he must speak Truth, that the Falsehood thereof may enslave the souls of men. Let Him then utter that without Fear, that the Law may be fulfilled...."
-
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"Think of Maya as the modelling clay of perceivable reality: The mind is the molder. The illusion is the particular shape into which the mind molds the clay. This is especially why Maya is called the mother-substance. (Think of the Path of Beth striking and inseminating the the Great Sea of Binah as a directed attention from the still Self in Kether.)"
Does that mean that you would equate or compare Nuit to Maya and/or Binah?
-
Yes. Nuit is a higher idea, but the same idea on a higher scale.
-
@Jim Eshelman said
"Yes. Nuit is a higher idea, but the same idea on a higher scale."
I am asking as I have noticed diverse similarities between the relationship of the observer and the observable totality (the universal wave function) of quantum physics to the relationship of Hadith & Nuit. As both interactions produce the world, fundamentally, with the many-worlds and many-minds interpretations seemingly undifferentiable from each other, which points to an identity of existence and consciousness that is difficult to swallow for the sceptics. It fits fine with some of the more obscure Nuit & Hadith sentences in the LA.
But then if one attributed that to the neoquabbalah of the 16th-19th century that would be more like Kether & Ain Soph, I assume. Which would fit with your suggestion of a scale higher.
@Dar es Allarah said
"Mayabe...
" -
@Jim said
"Would anyone like to get back on the original topic?"
Yes.
In fact, I can combine all of these in one simple post, (hopefully simple.)
The Tao, the circular Egg at the top center of the universe and cosmos, was the original manifestation. Now Abrasax was the original chicken that laid the egg. Bam! coercion of the first chicken and the first egg. However, both sides of the discussion are wrong since The Tao is very evolved as perfect, (an evolved "chicken",) laid by a half-chicken, half-reptile.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Abraxas,_Nordisk_familjebok.png/220px-Abraxas,_Nordisk_familjebok.png
The future emergence, (and laying,) of the egg of the Tao, I believe, is what they were looking at and pointing to, and is why He was distracted from beating and whipping the donkey and the naked child.Opiates are normally sold on the street as "eggs", no joke, (or, no yolk). One dose of dirty, filthy H on the street is an egg. What do opiates have seriously to do with Creation, they are the endless,
(eternal, indestructible, as the "lower" forms of water are evaporatable, after the events of revelations, there will be no more sea,)
flow of water that flows down all the way from Binah, (and thus, Briah,) at it's "first" manifestation past the Tao, (I will go into how Tao is reflected in Water at the bottom of this lecture), reflected down to elemental water Chesed, then flowing down to the "initiatory" water of Hod, down to Yesod where water and Gabriel hold authority, even though it is initiatory air, still under Netzach, elemental Earth, as waters do flow. I will now speak something that is normally not to be spoken of, (as if I haven't begun to already,) but I believe it is late in the game so I will speak of it.Opiates, if done effectively, give you this exact vision, all the way up to the Tao. Since we learn that the Tao breaks itself up into a mind of three, that further continues to Kether, Chokmah, and Binah. Binah is the first communicable flow of water that reflects this perfect divinity in a form that's not complete fiery male chaos.
The original poster has a problem with viewing divinity and the flow of the original divine power.
He splashes about in the lower Sephira looking for fun with "demons", when he should be learning to balance himself, and the balance of demons will no doubt follow. Removing this doubt is what all the sickness, fear, hurt, lonely agony, and weakness is about.Is this good enough, or shall I explain more?
(I'm not going any further on the connection to opiates and water. The thought was checked by the SCs themselves after the initial idea was typed, and I'm done with that connection anyways as it feels....yes...)I will mention that the Tao, is eventually associated with Water, or the Female quality of Creation, while Hadit, who springs up from the base of the foundation, (as Kundalini,) is more active, and I guess you could say, "Fiery"? It is in our neck of the woods, anyways. He leaps forth to strike into the Tao, or egg, to further produce more of existence, and Trees of Life.
I would recommend serious meditation and study of this subject before taking this into serious questioning. In my possession in PDF format is about all of Crowley's work. You can use a PDF reader or acrobat to search lines of text. This all fits together like pieces in a puzzle that make up the internal workings and machinery of the clock that is our Universe.