Infuriation
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@sethur said
"There is one fly in the ointment. W B Crow was appointed world head of the OTO before Germer, not as Crowley's post-mortem successor but there and then (AC was very ill I imagine). Crowley later apparently "rescinded" this. However, by definition, he had no power to do so, and Crow later claimed headship after Crowley died, but was unable to find anyone who would support him. However, his lineages (he collected them) continue...."
Where did you happen to read about this part of history? I haven't heard much about these events.
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@luxinhominefactum said
"Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ...all arguments about whether the O.T.O. is just a club aside... " there is no inherent identity between the O.T.O. and Thelema per se" this is absolutely, unquestionably, perfectly......TRUE!!!
the O.T.O. as it stood under Theodor Reuss was founded before the Aeon of Horus even started. this is a matter of historical record. i think the confusion comes in with the claims of Certain Parties who really want people to think that their O.T.O. is the Only Thelemic Order.
that's not what them initials stand for, doncha know.
Love is the law, love under will"The Supreme Secret that is kept by the O.T.O. isn't about Thelema -- as you point out it pre-dates it.
The O.T.O. accepted Thelema into its system and worked to spread the law of Thelema to the world. For many years there was no other public body doing this work. It isn't hard to imagine why many people identify the O.T.O. with Thelema.
The O.T.O. also owns the rights to all of Crowley's written material. This makes them a powerful force in spreading the word of Thelema to the world today. I would think that every Thelemite would want the O.T.O. to thrive if for no other reason than they want to see unreleased Crowley material published, or rare material reprinted for their reading pleasure.
I wish all the people spreading the law of Thelema well. There are so few of us that it sometimes seems silly when we start feuding between ourselves. Sometimes there is strife about ideas or concepts but all too often the strife is about personality and taking sides. Now to make it more strange we don't even have Motta or McMurtry alive so people are taking sides with their successors. The successor’s students then spend time arguing about which line of succession is correct and fighting about minor differences of opinion. I have seen this before in the history of Moslems where the successors of Mohammed label themselves followers of the rightly guided Caliph. They label themselves Sunni and Shiite and kill each other over succession. They have been doing it for years. Frankly it seems stupid to me that the Moslems do this, and that Thelemites attack each other and try to "assassinate" each others teachers (the teacher’s characters, the teacher’s right and proper succession, etc.). Isn't there something more important Thelemites can do? Something more important to fight for? Freedom maybe? -
Frater Pantha,
I agree very largely with what you are saying. Thelema is transmitted more powerfully, in my opinion, through the work that each of us does, and this work has to be rooted in magical and mystical experience. A parallel example might be the contention of Transcendental Meditation practitioners, whereby a large enough number of TM practitioners in a geographical location start to influence the thinking and behaviour of the non-TM community.
I think that there's another aspect to succession, however. It's easy to think of succession passing down from one illustrious person to another illustrious person; up to a point, that's true of course. However, the real succession is at a more individual level. We are influenced by the work of others, and via the catalyst of our own magical and mystical experience we distil our own body of work, which is in turn taken up by others who assimilate it and transform it yet again via their own experience.
Best wishes,
Michael.
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I look forward to the day where petty notions are set aside and we may come together under one roof.
The current state of affairs is to be expected ; the new Hierophant has taken his seat in the East.
Initiation into the New Aeon has occurred, the parts separated and cast into the Wind.
It is a matter of time before they fall back into place.
Then may The Dialogue between God and his children truly begin! -
What is interesting is that these notions of lineages and whatnot are only of interest to those outside the temple, once you get a foot in the door and begin the work it seems a bit irrelevant really.
In my limited experience, the A.'.A.'. crowns the work, whether it be the Joe Bloggs lineage or whatever makes little difference, after a while the paper chase which seemed so important becomes nothing more than an academic exercise.
I believe that this is actually part of the screening process, until this has been assimilated all people do is procrastinate at the temple doors wondering if it really is a temple!
Sincerity is what matters.
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That's very interesting, but I don't think that it holds true that ascribing to any particular system means that one becomes cultish and insular. It could be said by non-thelemites that we in this forum, having identified with what we call the 93 current, are equally as cultish. More than one of my family, and quite a few of my friends think I'm in a cult, even though they don't necessarily know whether or not I belong to one or another Order within the 93 current.
You could say the same about any group, the Army, the boyscouts, political affiliations, your local knitting circle...
I think one of the great dangers of Thelema is the tendency to view those who have not accepted the Law as somehow inferior, and such comments as 'the slaves shall serve' can become a sort of derogatory phrase used in this context.
I do agree though that we must be careful not to cultivate an 'us and them' mentality. When I first began formal work within my chosen 'Lineage' (I use this term with great reluctance, because it can serve to strengthen the very cultishness that we don't want to cultivate), a friend of mine who happened to belong to another 'lineage' of the same Order went crazy over this and even went to the extent of spreading lies about the lineage that I had joined, saying it was a fake, and all that that their's was the only 'true lineage'. I think that this was an expression of this individuals insecurities about their chosen group.
I can only talk for sure about my own experience, but within the Order that I chose, cult behaviour is seriously discouraged, to be honest it feels like a solitary practice, I rarely if ever meet any other members of the Order, and only communicate when necessary, for testing or whatnot, so that actually the group mentality of more social orders doesn't really take hold much. I actually prefer it like this, I don't have anyone breathing down my neck, I work at my own pace within a firm but elastic framework, and I am very much responsible for my self.
As they say, the AA crowns the work.(not any particular AA, but the order that has no name, to which we all aspire)
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@Dar es Allarah said
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I was responding to your statement that "What is interesting is that these notions of lineages and whatnot are only of interest to those outside the temple" - as I thought it doesn't hold true when properly examined. As you have just illustrated, whether these notions are of interest to others is either true or not on a case by case basis and not determined by membership or otherwise to an A.'.A.'. group.
"Ok, I'll go into more detail about it, again from my own experience, (maybe a lesson not to judge others by my own standards
)In the beginning I was obsessed with the idea of lineage, and I noticed that this seemed to be a common trait amongst those who were waiting on the doorstep as it were, and even those of the preliminary grades. The questions of whether or not they had joined the 'real' AA was all important at that time; I asked all sorts of questions that in retrospect were completely besides the point, and in hindsight they seem like the sort of questions that I could only have asked at that point in time, because now I don't trouble to think about it except in a spirit of amusement at my own attachment to clubs and badges, paperwork and all that guff.
I remembered being horrified at the thought that I might have joined the 'wrong lineage', and my acquaintance aforementioned was in the same position with their own 'lineage' (Which goes to prove the old rule about Probationers conferring being a bar to progress, so these days we communicate sparingly and don't discuss the work at all; lesson learned the hard way, or maybethe only way).
When all's said and done the various groups operating could all be said to have broken links, depending on your pov, but in practice they all seem to get on with the work quite happily without worrying over-much about that kind of thing.
These days I'm more inclined to put the whole experience down to the trial's of that Grade, where the aspirant is given the chance to betray the Order. It all seems like a dream now, and hopefully will serve as a warning to those who follow.
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Dar, have you completed the Aethyrs?
If so, how was ZAX?
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@Dar es Allarah said
":D I'm sure those insights will be valuable to some folks too.
I wonder how that this 'chance to betray the order' works out when it directly conflicts with the exhortation: "To thine own Self be true"?
"Interesting question. I've only ever known that Ordeal to manifest in a form where the person was, in fact, betraying themselves. (I tend to think that's the essence of the Ordeal: the Order jut provides the context. Relationships are useful that way <g>.)
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@Dar es Allarah said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Dar es Allarah said
":D I'm sure those insights will be valuable to some folks too.I wonder how that this 'chance to betray the order' works out when it directly conflicts with the exhortation: "To thine own Self be true"?
"Interesting question. I've only ever known that Ordeal to manifest in a form where the person was, in fact, betraying themselves. (I tend to think that's the essence of the Ordeal: the Order jut provides the context. Relationships are useful that way <g>.)"
I see. Maybe, you think, by agreeing to join an order when it wasn't their true will to do so? 
"It's certainly possible (a certainty) that some people take such a step when it's not right for them. The real eruptive pressure cooker effect is that the nature of an authentic magical oath creates a binding, inescapable path that puts one's deep integrity on the line. (That's one of the several ways that such an oath is a formidable tool for the aspirant's Work.) If someone makes that kind of commitment and it's at odds with their nature, then there will be an eruption.
But that's not what I was talking about. The above is an example of the best (in the sense of truest, most authentic) side fighting its way to freedom. I'm talking more about cases where the smaller side of a person sells out their own genuine ideals. This, of course, leads to betrayal of anything that anchors their better side. (It's not just a magical order that can do this, of course. Surely you have noticed that, for many people, nothing so ruins a long-successful relationship like marriage. It 'works' until they solemnly swear to keep it working! Not true for everyone, of course.)
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That's a brilliant way of putting it, I have found that in this the betrayal of myself and the betrayal of the Order would indeed be the same thing, I spent several years doing just that before I broke away from all that and decided to commit myself to the work, and at the appointed time the Ordeal came about in classic style, sowing doubt on the path and causing me to spend considerable time and effort to discover the facts of my 'lineage', as well as several others, so I learned a lot about the history of the Order, from several perspectives, until at a given point I realized that they all contradicted each other on some point or other, and all of there claims could be refuted if one had a mind to.
So I was left with a simple choice, either Get on with the work, or fall into the pit of because and spend the rest of my life regretting it, naturally I chose the former.
I have since seen this and other ordeals of a similar type in others at the same stage, so I feel that I can attest that it certainly is something to be taken into account when dealing with Probationers.
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That's part of why it's called "probation" - i.e., "trying it out, testing it," etc. One of the main things that is happening at that stage is that one is "selecting oneself in or out" before taking full initiation. This choice is not always a conscious one.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Being a probationer was interesting but I would never have been allowed to go any further than that, because you can't make a genuine commitment to redo stuff you've already done. That's just impossible, so although I was honest about my motivations - I still think I placed myself in a false position. "
I'm not sure we actually disagree about anything here, though I'm prompted to say something about that topic.
You can make a genuine commitment to retravel a road you've already walked down. In fact, it's basic to the recapitulaton that occurs lifetime after lifetime for those who have already moved far along the path.
The soul (for lack of a better word) owns the wholeness of its experience, but the process starts all over again with each new body. The physical body has to go through each step. The difference is that, for one who has travelled the road before, this is a recapitulation that usually happens very swiftly.
It's much harder to retrace (as a formality) within a given lifetime. The body has already grown past that point. (And I suspect that's what you meant.) Forgetting has its value! <g>
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Unnecessary to invoke since it happened in the course of things anyway. I had 'Legion' chattering at me instead. Lies, flattery, manipulation, accusation. Constant talking, involution, swearing, repetition. Very testing and prolonged. Reading Crowley's account of Zax and Choronzon - same difference really.
They/It - left me with a last message to puzzle out and then left for good. That last message was of a very different character to the others. It was all about a stone that terrified them because they couldn't see it. "
It must have been difficult... but you prevailed. Kudos.
@Dar es Allarah said
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Why?"Was just interested in experience of ZAX of someone who has actually crossed it.
Tnx for sharing though.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Being a probationer was interesting but I would never have been allowed to go any further than that, because you can't make a genuine commitment to redo stuff you've already done. That's just impossible, so although I was honest about my motivations - I still think I placed myself in a false position. "
Hmm.
IMO, one can always learn new things or deepen the stuff already attained. It does take a pinch of humility, though (at least in my case it did). -
@Dar es Allarah said
"I have not lived before this life in any genuine way"
Powerful words!
"This is one of the reasons I got 'Legion' and not Choronzon -for Legion is many and I was gifted with many patterns concurrently."
I don't see any real difference between Legion and Choronzon. ('Legion' is a great description of Choronzon's working!) - How are you distinguishing? [LOL, that's an ironic question, under the circumstances.]
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No kidding.
"Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss."
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I sent off my Oath of Probation just yesterday.
The thoughts being expressed on this thread resonate with what's been on my mind the past week.
I did give a bit of a fit as to what lineage I was to Work with, but ultimately, I don't care either.
In my first two years of study(I suppose, my period of Studentship), I've experienced everywhere within my internal development naught but my intuition and Fool's chance could take me. Took me far. I had a vision of my Angel, I lived day by day following His guidance through the synchronicity we all know(which brought a whole slew of odd experiences and peculiar powers, as it will), but eventually tripped, fell, and ended up staring right into the ever-shifting face of Choronzon. Nowhere I reached had the capacity to be sustained.
I believe that this will always happen if one is not keeping a train of Order throughout all the Chaos we're already aware of, and perhaps already adept at directing. One can go far on one's own whim, but the attainments will only be for oneself. I see my signing of the Oath as me giving myself to the collective evolution rather than just my own, as well as giving me a chance to consciously climb the Tree, step-by-step rather than haphazardly as circumstance took me, meet my Angel on my own terms, and confront the Mighty Sausage again from a place of strength(while building a certain skill-set along the way that is best cultivated by a teacher).
I see the chance to start back at the bottom refreshing, and motivating. -
@Dar es Allarah said
"Legion seems more like a community or hive mind that can speak as one, or 3, or a thousand but has no genuine wholeness. I haven't heard Crowley describe Choronzon like that but it may be that they are the same and there is no difference between the one and the many. It really hates it if you declare that neither you nor it/they really exists."
My basic description of Choronzon is "ALL knowledge taken to [the threshold of] the infinite, where each unit of knowledge exists simultaneously in awareness, with no inherent relatedness or cohesion between any of its units." All ideas of dispersion and incontinence, overcome only by concentration and silence. The mind survives and moves on when it makes the shift from particle-awareness (knowledge as division) to global awareness.
"Anyway... I'm wasting no more time thinking on the sausage of doom. More fun things to do!"
Agreed!
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Would you give me an example please?"
Reading a new book from the list, sitting in siddhasana for one hour etc...