Infuriation
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Dar, have you completed the Aethyrs?
If so, how was ZAX?
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@Dar es Allarah said
":D I'm sure those insights will be valuable to some folks too.
I wonder how that this 'chance to betray the order' works out when it directly conflicts with the exhortation: "To thine own Self be true"?
"Interesting question. I've only ever known that Ordeal to manifest in a form where the person was, in fact, betraying themselves. (I tend to think that's the essence of the Ordeal: the Order jut provides the context. Relationships are useful that way <g>.)
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@Dar es Allarah said
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@Jim Eshelman said
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@Dar es Allarah said
":D I'm sure those insights will be valuable to some folks too.I wonder how that this 'chance to betray the order' works out when it directly conflicts with the exhortation: "To thine own Self be true"?
"Interesting question. I've only ever known that Ordeal to manifest in a form where the person was, in fact, betraying themselves. (I tend to think that's the essence of the Ordeal: the Order jut provides the context. Relationships are useful that way <g>.)"
I see. Maybe, you think, by agreeing to join an order when it wasn't their true will to do so? 
"It's certainly possible (a certainty) that some people take such a step when it's not right for them. The real eruptive pressure cooker effect is that the nature of an authentic magical oath creates a binding, inescapable path that puts one's deep integrity on the line. (That's one of the several ways that such an oath is a formidable tool for the aspirant's Work.) If someone makes that kind of commitment and it's at odds with their nature, then there will be an eruption.
But that's not what I was talking about. The above is an example of the best (in the sense of truest, most authentic) side fighting its way to freedom. I'm talking more about cases where the smaller side of a person sells out their own genuine ideals. This, of course, leads to betrayal of anything that anchors their better side. (It's not just a magical order that can do this, of course. Surely you have noticed that, for many people, nothing so ruins a long-successful relationship like marriage. It 'works' until they solemnly swear to keep it working! Not true for everyone, of course.)
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That's a brilliant way of putting it, I have found that in this the betrayal of myself and the betrayal of the Order would indeed be the same thing, I spent several years doing just that before I broke away from all that and decided to commit myself to the work, and at the appointed time the Ordeal came about in classic style, sowing doubt on the path and causing me to spend considerable time and effort to discover the facts of my 'lineage', as well as several others, so I learned a lot about the history of the Order, from several perspectives, until at a given point I realized that they all contradicted each other on some point or other, and all of there claims could be refuted if one had a mind to.
So I was left with a simple choice, either Get on with the work, or fall into the pit of because and spend the rest of my life regretting it, naturally I chose the former.
I have since seen this and other ordeals of a similar type in others at the same stage, so I feel that I can attest that it certainly is something to be taken into account when dealing with Probationers.
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That's part of why it's called "probation" - i.e., "trying it out, testing it," etc. One of the main things that is happening at that stage is that one is "selecting oneself in or out" before taking full initiation. This choice is not always a conscious one.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Being a probationer was interesting but I would never have been allowed to go any further than that, because you can't make a genuine commitment to redo stuff you've already done. That's just impossible, so although I was honest about my motivations - I still think I placed myself in a false position. "
I'm not sure we actually disagree about anything here, though I'm prompted to say something about that topic.
You can make a genuine commitment to retravel a road you've already walked down. In fact, it's basic to the recapitulaton that occurs lifetime after lifetime for those who have already moved far along the path.
The soul (for lack of a better word) owns the wholeness of its experience, but the process starts all over again with each new body. The physical body has to go through each step. The difference is that, for one who has travelled the road before, this is a recapitulation that usually happens very swiftly.
It's much harder to retrace (as a formality) within a given lifetime. The body has already grown past that point. (And I suspect that's what you meant.) Forgetting has its value! <g>
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Unnecessary to invoke since it happened in the course of things anyway. I had 'Legion' chattering at me instead. Lies, flattery, manipulation, accusation. Constant talking, involution, swearing, repetition. Very testing and prolonged. Reading Crowley's account of Zax and Choronzon - same difference really.
They/It - left me with a last message to puzzle out and then left for good. That last message was of a very different character to the others. It was all about a stone that terrified them because they couldn't see it. "
It must have been difficult... but you prevailed. Kudos.
@Dar es Allarah said
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Why?"Was just interested in experience of ZAX of someone who has actually crossed it.
Tnx for sharing though.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Being a probationer was interesting but I would never have been allowed to go any further than that, because you can't make a genuine commitment to redo stuff you've already done. That's just impossible, so although I was honest about my motivations - I still think I placed myself in a false position. "
Hmm.
IMO, one can always learn new things or deepen the stuff already attained. It does take a pinch of humility, though (at least in my case it did). -
@Dar es Allarah said
"I have not lived before this life in any genuine way"
Powerful words!
"This is one of the reasons I got 'Legion' and not Choronzon -for Legion is many and I was gifted with many patterns concurrently."
I don't see any real difference between Legion and Choronzon. ('Legion' is a great description of Choronzon's working!) - How are you distinguishing? [LOL, that's an ironic question, under the circumstances.]
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No kidding.
"Jesus asked him, "What is your name?" "Legion," he replied, because many demons had gone into him. And they begged him repeatedly not to order them to go into the Abyss."
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I sent off my Oath of Probation just yesterday.
The thoughts being expressed on this thread resonate with what's been on my mind the past week.
I did give a bit of a fit as to what lineage I was to Work with, but ultimately, I don't care either.
In my first two years of study(I suppose, my period of Studentship), I've experienced everywhere within my internal development naught but my intuition and Fool's chance could take me. Took me far. I had a vision of my Angel, I lived day by day following His guidance through the synchronicity we all know(which brought a whole slew of odd experiences and peculiar powers, as it will), but eventually tripped, fell, and ended up staring right into the ever-shifting face of Choronzon. Nowhere I reached had the capacity to be sustained.
I believe that this will always happen if one is not keeping a train of Order throughout all the Chaos we're already aware of, and perhaps already adept at directing. One can go far on one's own whim, but the attainments will only be for oneself. I see my signing of the Oath as me giving myself to the collective evolution rather than just my own, as well as giving me a chance to consciously climb the Tree, step-by-step rather than haphazardly as circumstance took me, meet my Angel on my own terms, and confront the Mighty Sausage again from a place of strength(while building a certain skill-set along the way that is best cultivated by a teacher).
I see the chance to start back at the bottom refreshing, and motivating. -
@Dar es Allarah said
"Legion seems more like a community or hive mind that can speak as one, or 3, or a thousand but has no genuine wholeness. I haven't heard Crowley describe Choronzon like that but it may be that they are the same and there is no difference between the one and the many. It really hates it if you declare that neither you nor it/they really exists."
My basic description of Choronzon is "ALL knowledge taken to [the threshold of] the infinite, where each unit of knowledge exists simultaneously in awareness, with no inherent relatedness or cohesion between any of its units." All ideas of dispersion and incontinence, overcome only by concentration and silence. The mind survives and moves on when it makes the shift from particle-awareness (knowledge as division) to global awareness.
"Anyway... I'm wasting no more time thinking on the sausage of doom. More fun things to do!"
Agreed!
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Would you give me an example please?"
Reading a new book from the list, sitting in siddhasana for one hour etc...
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@Dar es Allarah said
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Yes, I agree - but gestalt shifts in consciousness are a different matter."What do you mean?
I dont follow. -
@Frater Potater said
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Uni_Verse wrote:Then may The Dialogue between God and his children truly begin!Off topic, but I was wondering what you meant by this? "
The promise of the New Aeon: Humanities ascent into Knowledge & Conversation.
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@Dar es Allarah said
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It is when learning (and unlearning) is building up to a crescendo, and then - just like watching a very supersaturated liquid that you've fed drop by careful drop in a petri dish and you give it the slightest knock, transforms in an instant in front of your eyes into crystals. That is a gestalt change of the whole, and the same thing can happen with your consciousness. It happens on the attainment to Tiphareth and also when crossing the abyss (although I describe that as a 'turning point')."
Yes, exactly what I meant above.
Tnx.
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@Frater INRI said
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Would you give me an example please?"Reading a new book from the list, sitting in siddhasana for one hour etc..."
I was thinking of this idea,
I studied math, and I aced the test. I understood how to get the answer from my perspective. Yet not everyone learns the same, we all have our own unique perspective. I may want to study the subject again, deliberately from a different perspective, so that I can deepen my u derstanding and share my understanding with others who are on the same subject (teach).
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@Veronica said
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I studied math, and I aced the test. I understood how to get the answer from my perspective. Yet not everyone learns the same, we all have our own unique perspective. I may want to study the subject again, deliberately from a different perspective, so that I can deepen my u derstanding and share my understanding with others who are on the same subject (teach)."Yes.
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Actually no, you seem to be missing my point. "
OK
@Dar es Allarah said
" It's not a matter of 'having humility', although if you are who I think you are then I understand why you'd think that.
"So, who am I then?
<big ears> -
@Frater INRI said
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@Dar es Allarah said
"Actually no, you seem to be missing my point. "OK
@Dar es Allarah said
" It's not a matter of 'having humility', although if you are who I think you are then I understand why you'd think that.
"So, who am I then?
<big ears>"How many guesses do we get?
Just in case you are Jimmy Page...
I meant every word...