Explaining Thelema to non-Thelemites
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@Athantos said
"I don't think it's so unambiguous. A distinction needs to be made between promulgation (which Crowley definitely advocated pretty heavily) and conversion. Conversion implies force, whereas promulgation means making people aware of the Law and explaining it to them properly. To that end, explaining certain points to people--such as the fact that Thelema isn't some cult with gurus telling you what to do--is essential for proper and effective promulgation. "
An idea to keep in mind is that one can promulgate the Thelema and the Law without directing referencing it.
For I see the best way of making people aware of Thelema is by following its precepts: Do your Will and nothing less.
@Athanatos said
""Convincing" someone doesn't necessarily mean getting into a long argument with them, but rather making them aware of certain points of Thelemic philosophy and practice that clearly refute their misconceptions. Crowley was very clear on the fact that establishing a Thelemic society is inherently a part of doing one's Will. It is difficult to establish such a society if we allow rampant misconceptions to go unchecked. Correcting these misconceptions is not inherently "conversion."
"Going along with my earlier point...
If a person is aware of the the current, what have you, of Thelema I certainly agree on clearing up any misconceptions.Though, again, I do not see a Thelemic society neccesarily built on "Thelema" per say.
In my discussions with people I try to emphasize the concept of True Will, if not in so many words.
Doing so in a way that does not infringe on what-ever may be the Will of that person.
One can follow Judaism, Christianity, Satanism, what have you and still do their True Will.
A person could never have read the Book of the Law yet still follow its precepts. -
@Jim said
"That one seems unambiguous, to me. There is another passage where my own interpretation varies from most people's interpretations. Verse 3:39 ends, "...to each man and woman that thou meetest, were it but to dine or to drink at them, it is the Law to give. Then they shall chance to abide in this bliss or no; it is no odds. Do this quickly!" This passage is often interpreted as remarks on how the comment was to be prepared. I read it as saying that, to each person you meet, "it is the Law to give" - tell them a bit about it - then shut up and leave it to them to run with it or not. I read "Do this quickly!" as meaning we are to share about the Law in few words, in a few moments, with a few remarks. "
I really think these passages have directly to do with one another as such:
To do your Will in Thelema, its ways, paths, and virtues, and be quiet about the actual magic of it.
As far as being in eating/drinking/etc.. ceremonies with others, it is thy Will and duty to introduce them to the Way somehow, but to be sooo careful about it..
I have had great success in quieting Christians by comparing Yeshua with Osiris, and Osiris's son Horus being the obvious "Crowned and Conquering Child" of revelations. After I very carefully explain the facts in such a way as to anticipate their thoughts, then lay that "Crowned and Conquering Child" thing on them, they pretty much sit or stand there with a half-smile, as if they are trying to get deep in thought, and breaking through well into it.
Just my 93 cents.
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"One can follow Judaism, Christianity, Satanism, what have you and still do their True Will.
A person could never have read the Book of the Law yet still follow its precepts."I would strongly agree with this, only if you include the idea of letting go of the dying god and accepting the aeon of Horus as the child crowned and conquering.
To believe false beliefs is NOT True Will. You don't always just do your True Will. If you read carefully posts and things people have wrote, they always say that whatever you do is doing your Will, but the wording is not "True Will."
Humans are so interesting.
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@ThelemicMage said
"To believe false beliefs is NOT True Will. "
Well, I would suggest that all beliefs are false, it's just a matter of which belief serves your needs at the time. As mentioned above, we have to outgrow the need for a certain belief before we can outgrow the belief.
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Touche, Benjamin.. however, you must have been aware that I was trying to explain a method of communicating a Thelemic "Belief".
Since light itself is but illusion, you are correct on all points.
However, certain sets of beliefs are in fact Truths if in the appropriate context/aeon/time/space. You cannot say that if I go outside and urinate that the piss would splash upwards instead of downwards. This the "Truth" I was referring to.
Now, since there is a set "truth" built upon physics and everything from above that constitutes these physics, It cannot possibly be my True Will to urinate upwards unless there is a specific need to do so. (I doubt it.)
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@Frater Potater said
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@ThelemicMage said
"I have had great success in quieting Christians by comparing Yeshua with Osiris, and Osiris's son Horus being the obvious "Crowned and Conquering Child" of revelations. After I very carefully explain the facts in such a way as to anticipate their thoughts, then lay that "Crowned and Conquering Child" thing on them, they pretty much sit or stand there with a half-smile, as if they are trying to get deep in thought, and breaking through well into it."
Why bother though? Does this have to do with your True Will? Or are you just stroking a certain part of your proverbial c*ck? I could theoretically explain to my mother all the things I think are "wrong" with her religion, but I don't. You know why? Because it's not my will to mess with hers. Also because I feel like if it collapsed her whole world, I would be assuming a kind of personal responsibility for her after that. Karma is involved."
I will paraphrase the book of the law, and say that these people are openly restricting and interfering with everyone else's true Will in the world. They need to be delt with mercilessly, even if they are your family. Even the Son of Man said, that when "He" comes back, (As The Aeon of Horus,) that His "new religion", (Thelema) will tear families, governments, societies apart, and it is certainly MEANT to. His words.
We shall be vehemently upon them, swinging our swords out over the gale, striking, smiting, and prevailing, with Ra Hoor Khuit at our arms.
A re-read over the book of the law and commentary tells us that it is our duty to do these things, and as soon as someone slips and starts to fall, to let the dogs of hell have them, and not turn back. There's always a little hidden sympathy, even in RHK, so would you want your mom to just gain spiritual weight and fall down and down into the dusk of death, hell, and the hell that is worse than hell?
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"I didn't personally draw that same conclusion. I'm not saying either of us is right or wrong either. You also make the assumption that I believe in a place called hell.
What exactly do you mean by "gain spiritual weight"? What's this dusk of death stuff?
Each person is responsible for themselves, even my mother."
Yes, your mother is her own person, even if she interferes with your or her own True Will.
The references of spiritual weight and dusk of death is all out of our man Crowley's material.
A further look into the Book and his Work would bring you incredible insight.
I would say to at least have a hundred pieces from him read before I would totally understand the Law of Thelema, which I have.
"Think, oh spirit, that death is the bed into which you are falling! Sink not!"
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I believe that I understand Thelema, in the way of time with the understanding that I have now.
And yes, I have read a lot of Crowley.
Let me briefly surmise something in my previous post.
Earth, or Malkuth on the very bottom of the tree, contains fire in it's core and so does every star.
If you gain "spiritual" weight/unneeded girth, (not to mention length,) you will fall down to be tormented in that massive ball of fire that composes the center of the Earth, and every star.
If you understand Thelema, and flow naturally, you will not have to endure these things, because you will flow with them, having already understood their purpose, and instead use them as sources of energy.
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This topic is always a frustrating one that I've adjusted several times over the years.
I try to speak plain language and tell them that it's a brand of spirituality I align myself with that says I should try to find my True Will, and not interfere with other people's True Will. Then I tell them it's fairly libertarian. Then they usually nod in agreement.
I live in the bible belt, so if I go too much past that people will usually think I'm in a cult or worship Satan. Telling them how I find my True Will is something I save for much later.
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@ThelemicMage said
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If you gain "spiritual" weight/unneeded girth, (not to mention length,) you will fall down to be tormented in that massive ball of fire that composes the center of the Earth, and every star."
What the Hell is that supposed to mean?
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The progression of elements and beings that live in such elements can be mapped out, especially using liber 777.
What elements are harmful in greater intensity than others unto those specific beings can be easily defined as some sort of "hell", but the proverbial "hell" being a place where a being has trapped themselves in such circumstances.
I just described the fusion of the universe, shared with every star and active planet, and what happens when beings "trap" themselves to have to experience that fusion, with no control over the process, for a very long time because of "spiritual" inactivity, and got shot down from the class being completely unprepared to discuss the progression of life and the progression of elements.
I will now end my part of this discussion.
I would consult the gnomes if you wish to dive(divine), further into this.
They live very far underground, and are very intimate with the processes that I speak of. If you don't believe in gnomes, I'd say that light itself is but illusion, and you should read more Crowley.First, try going thoroughly over Liber 419, with all the commentary and drawings. Don't believe in Liber 419? Don't know what else to tell you.
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@Frater Potater said
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Uni_Verse wrote:One can follow Judaism, Christianity, Satanism, what have you and still do their True Will.Your talking about religions that really do a lot to suppress the individual nature of people.
What about RHK flapping his wings, and pecking out the eyes, etc?
How does one fully explore the nature of their being, when they adhere to a philosophy which puts such restrictions on personal freedom/liberty? Following the precepts of thelema seems to put one at odds with what these religions are all about.
The dogmas and belief structures of these religions are very out dated, not to mention unscientific. They seem to me inapplicable in todays world. That is not to say that you are wrong, I guess I just don't understand the statement. I mean no disrespect.
"Allow me to present an alternative perspective:
You speak of Judaism, lets say, as being restrictive.
Perhaps to you it is restrictive.
Although, it might directly line up with my personal beliefs.
I might all ready be living its model and labeling myself Jewish.
Or converting to Judaism...
Alas, those would just be formalities.Just as, if me or you were of differing sexualities.
My accepting of that sexuality does not imply I share it.
Or that I must partake in it.
That is your Will, not mine:
As long as one keeps the above notion in mind I do not see there being a problem. -
@Frater Potater said
"This sure is a funny time to be alive!"
It could always be worse. At least folks like us aren't being hunted down and murdered anymore.
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I will quote, not just Crowley, but Anhk ef na Khonsu, his admitted previous incarnation, and the name by which he is addressed by our Lady Nuit, in his recollections of this ancient life he lived in Egypt, "Across The Gulf", on the concept of Hell, and different levels of it:
"Then they gave me to drink of the Cup of the torment; and this is its virtue, that if one should speak
falsely, invoking the name of the goddess, he shall burn in hell visibly before all men for a thousand
years; and that flame shall never be put out. There is such an one in her temple in Memphis, for I
saw it with these eyes. There he burns and writhes and shrieks on the cold marble floor; and there
he shall burn till his time expire, and he sink to that more dreadful hell below the West. But I drank
thereof, and the celestial dew stood shining on my skin, and a coolness ineffable thrilled through
me; whereat they all rejoiced, and obeyed the voice of the Goddess that I had declared unto them."Whoever said that Thelemites do not believe in "Hell" is seriously mistaken. "Hell" must be mentally apprehended, not feared and thus not talked about. We speak these things because we know we are picking up on the right track with Truth, divinity, and our higher selves, as ones who understand Thelema.
Leave no stone unturned, preferably while you leave no turn unstoned. Attention, focus, and meditating all the while letting go of your short term memory, (the "training wheels" of memory,) allows you to focus on the higher, permanent "deja-vu" concepts of long-term memory, (True Will and learned Intuition,) where access to the Akashic records of the Earth and Universe is relatively easy.
Picking up on everything around you, under you, (that flaming mass where souls have lost momentum and sunken to their obvious hells,) is all where it's at. Not about denying any part of reality. If one would wish to say that all is illusion, then it is in one's best interests to form all their words around that concept in an organized manner. One would wish not to cast doubt on something in particular that one would not wish to see or think about, more than one would cast doubt on any other thing that makes them more comfortable.
Finished. Teacher, may I go home now?